AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: Justin Urbantas on October 23, 2021, 09:19:40 AM
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So, some of you may have heard that 2024 is the 150th of the great Creedmoor match between the Irish and American teams. The Irish team shot their muzzleloaders against the American's not muzzleloaders. There will be a big match in 2024 on the anniversary. There is a yearly match to practice for that one, and it's going on now.
Today Lee Shaver posted a perfect score of 40/40 at 1000 yds with iron sights and his muzzleloader. What's more, he was firing prone without shooting sticks. I can't remember for sure how big the bull is on the target (maybe someone here knows?), but I want to say 2' for the centre.
Perfect score with iron sights unsupported at 1000yds with a muzzleloader is quite a feat. I want to make it to the 2024 match.
(https://i.ibb.co/cLC4ZWj/247887252-10220794497318524-8422828761832704830-n.jpg) (https://ibb.co/L5JVcT3)
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Wow!!! what more can I say.
george
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https://www.ssusa.org/articles/2018/8/23/the-great-1874-international-match
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That's amazing!! So many questions. Barrel, rate of twist, bullet, kind of powder, load. sights ???????
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I cant see anything 500 yards much less 1000. MY hat is off to him.
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That's amazing, perfect score by an OLD guy, facing, prone.
Seems to me, the bull (center) is 3 feet round, Justin, just as it was back then. It started out square for the '74 match, but was changed to round.
An inner is 6' and 12' (wide)x 6' tall was the entire target, I think.
They might be using the still more modern yet 10'x6' target.
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That's amazing!! So many questions. Barrel, rate of twist, bullet, kind of powder, load. sights ???????
What is being used today, Bobinthewoods or Fleener might have suggestions as both have participated.
.45 would be the most popular, likely.
Rate of Twist - 16" to 18" most likely & 80 to 110gr. rifle powder.
I'm just guessing, but that is what was used 'back then" I think. Trying to remember Robert's book write up on the actual matches.
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Okay, so I got more info. Here's the target It's 72 Inches tall. 120 wide. White square is 36x36. Black ring is 72x72. I don't know the load he used, but I would venture a guess of a .45 cal paper patched bullet weighing about 540 gr and about 100 gr of Swiss 2F or 1.5 F powder with a wad between powder and bullet. As far as sights, it looks like a soule rear sight and some type of globe front sight with level. Lee builds his own rifles and sights.
(https://i.ibb.co/D5fqhcv/FB-IMG-1635028199790.jpg) (https://ibb.co/PwGSKXP)
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Tells me I have so much more to learn. Wow, just wow
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My rifle used in the 1000 yard matches was a .45 cal , 1 in 18 twist, and shot a nose pour 535 gr PP bullet seated over a card wad, lubed felt wad , and 90 gr of FFg. Soule type rear sight with a aperture front sight. A false muzzle allowed easy ,perfect alignment when seating the bullet.
This type of long range shooting is addictive, but the repeated getting up and down from prone to standing to load is getting hard on me now :)
Here is a photo of the adjustable weight ,nose pour mold and paper patched bullet
The mold was made for me by Tom Ballard in Montana
(https://i.ibb.co/nzkyNhp/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/xJ5btVZ)
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Okay, so I got more info. Here's the target It's 72 Inches tall. 120 wide. White square is 36x36. Black ring is 72x72. I don't know the load he used, but I would venture a guess of a .45 cal paper patched bullet weighing about 540 gr and about 100 gr of Swiss 2F or 1.5 F powder with a wad between powder and bullet. As far as sights, it looks like a soule rear sight and some type of globe front sight with level. Lee builds his own rifles and sights.
(https://i.ibb.co/D5fqhcv/FB-IMG-1635028199790.jpg) (https://ibb.co/PwGSKXP)
That was the earlier target.
I just noticed Lee is using an Anschutz sling, same sling we used (different attachment point) in kneeling and prone in 3 -position shooting.
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That is awesome.
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That's amazing!! So many questions. Barrel, rate of twist, bullet, kind of powder, load. sights ?????
Thanks for the info guys. This is all very interesting. Awesome shooting.
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I just got home last night from Oak Ridge. I was not shooting due to my shoulder issues. My buddy Brent that shows up here on occasion and I have been going to Oak Ridge for years and he would of gotten lost on the 28 hour round trip without me.
The weather was perfect for long range shooting. Nice and cool with very little wind.
There was some great shooting going on. On Friday the course of fire was 300 and 1,000 yards supported. On Saturday the course of fire was 600 and 1,000 unsupported using nothing but your body.
Lee Shaver was the over all winner. He had a score of 150 out of 160 possible. He had a perfect score of 40 on Friday shooting supported with a sling. On Saturday he shot a 37 out of 40 unsupported at 1,000 yards.
Fleener
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This is an example of incredible skill. Having to move out of position to load after every shot, together with the time delay, makes this a much more difficult sport than any long range shooting involving cartridge arms.
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I do that every time I shoot,, perfect, never touch the target. ha ha
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He had a perfect score of 40 on Friday shooting supported with a sling. On Saturday he shot a 37 out of 40 unsupported at 1,000 yards
Art,
I'm wondering how you get a score of 40. Is it a 10 shot match?
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So the scoring is a little different then most of what we are used to. The highest score you can get is 4 per shot.
Rick is using targets and scoring that was used in the original Creedmoor matches.
Fleener
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So, do you just shoot 10 shots or is it one of those shoot 13 and keep the best 10, or something else?
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Unlimited sighters, and you can convert the last one for score. Once you go for score you keep everything good and bad. 10 shots per target.
Fleener
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That's amazing, perfect score by an OLD guy, facing, prone.
Seems to me, the bull (center) is 3 feet round, Justin, just as it was back then. It started out square for the '74 match, but was changed to round.
An inner is 6' and 12' (wide)x 6' tall was the entire target, I think.
They might be using the still more modern yet 10'x6' target.
Square targets require Whitworth hexagonal bullets and round bullets for round targets ;D
Bob Roller
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Unlimited sighters, and you can convert the last one for score. Once you go for score you keep everything good and bad. 10 shots per target.
Fleener
Unlimited sighters perhaps, but in reality, the time constraints play a factor here. In my experience, if you aren't on target after 5 sighters, you're probably pooched ;D
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I THINK I once read where the loss by the Irish was caused by one of their team members firing on the wrong target and the score wasn'r counted.Anyone know about this?
Bob Roller
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That is as I remember reading Ned Robert's report on the match, Bob.
Also, the Irish, shooting their muzzleloading Rigby's, challenged the US team to a match without cleaning the bores.
The lowest Irish score, was better than the highest American's score.
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My post on my muzzle loader against breech loaders at500 meters has disappeared.Why?
Bob Roller
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My post on my muzzle loader against breech loaders at500 meters has disappeared.Why?
Bob Roller
Bob, we don’t discuss breech loaders here. Never have. It’s in the rules.
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So, some of you may have heard that 2024 is the 150th of the great Creedmoor match between the Irish and American teams. The Irish team shot their muzzleloaders against the American's not muzzleloaders. There will be a big match in 2024 on the anniversary. There is a yearly match to practice for that one, and it's going on now.
Today Lee Shaver posted a perfect score of 40/40 at 1000 yds with iron sights and his muzzleloader. What's more, he was firing prone without shooting sticks. I can't remember for sure how big the bull is on the target (maybe someone here knows?), but I want to say 2' for the centre.
Perfect score with iron sights unsupported at 1000yds with a muzzleloader is quite a feat. I want to make it to the 2024 match.
(https://i.ibb.co/cLC4ZWj/247887252-10220794497318524-8422828761832704830-n.jpg) (https://ibb.co/L5JVcT3)
What rifle is Lee using?I have a big screen saver picture of his George Ferris rifle on my desk top computer that is in my "office" (front bedroom upstairs) and see it every time I fire this relic up.He told me the Brits didn't want to allow it into the country but finally relented.
Bob Roller
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Yes - interesting observation, Bob. After enlarging the picture to max, it does look like a box-lock & 2-piece stock to me.
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In the late 1950's,E.M.Farris had a George Ferris half stock target rifle in 38 caliber. I shot it on several occasiona at the old National Guard Armory in Portsmouth,Ohio and won sevral baskets of groceries with it.
I tried to buy it several times but it was not for sale.He finally did sell it in 1960 for $225 which was a princely sum for a muzzle loader then.I told him I would have topped that price had I known about it finally being for sale.In the Armory we shot at 25 yards offhand with a 40 caliber-40 grain limit and exhaust fans cleared the smoke.We did gave good turn outs of shooters.Good memories from good times and of friends now gone.
Bob Roller
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So, he shot 10 times and hit center each time at 1000 yds. What type eyeballs does this guy have! :o I'm happy hitting center once at 100!
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That is as I remember reading Ned Robert's report on the match, Bob.
Also, the Irish, shooting their muzzleloading Rigby's, challenged the US team to a match without cleaning the bores.
The lowest Irish score, was better than the highest American's score.
The Irish were more experienced in the sport and that makes a LOT of difference.
Also, a sling, properly used can make prone with a sling about as good as a bench rest.
My groups with my unmentionable match rifle prone with a sling and coat are about the same size as bench rest.
Hats off to Lee Shaver this was no mean feat. Shooting clean at 1000 yards, BP, ML changing position with the loading, iron sights? That really is world class shooting.
Dan
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Those interested in much more about this match and the rifles and loads used can find the information on Rick Weber's Creedmoor 150 Facebook page where such stalwarts as Snapper, Brent D. and David Minshall often post. Rick added the match score sheet with equipment list a few weeks back. Good stuff.
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Perhaps Denny Minshall of Idaho, maybe? Denny spent the night here on his way up to Alaska back before 2008.
To address Dan's post, the use of a properly adjusted Anschutz sling and shooting glove makes a world of difference
in prone shooting.
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David Minshall is a Brit.
Lee Shaver has won the World Championship and he has a world record at I believe 600 yards.
Fleener
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Gotcha - D. Minshal I know, is no Brit. ;)
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Where is this place in oak ridge, and does it have a web page for more info?
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Rick Weber host and runs this event. Look on facebook for Creedmoor 150. The next match has been set for I believe March 25 and 26.
If you want on the email list for the matches send an email to Rick Weber at ricksweber@gmail.com
Fleener
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How much drop at 1000 yds?
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If my memory is correct, I think I calculated once that the point of aim at 1,000 yards is 143 yards.
Fleener
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Much depends on the numbers used, ie: bullet design and weight/length (BC) & initial velocity.
With a 1000yard zero, these are some numbers.
550 yards 493.23" high = 1,000yard zero
At 550yards, the bullet is 493.23" (41.1feet) high for a zero at 1,000yards - according to the 'chart' I have.
It would have been 156.24" (13.02feet) high at 100yards.
That was for a BC of .450 (estimated) with an initial velocity of 1,250fps.
If that same load was zero'd & aimed at 100yards, it would be -1557.34" (129.8feet) low at 1000yards.
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I wonder if the land sloped downward? Looking at the strap and the gun being level with the ground. It doesn't seem he could hold the gun much higher.
He's no youngster and is blessed with good eyesight. Good for him.
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Could be the prone area is raised. The worse is when the angle is up for prone shooting. That's hard on the neck, even for a 22 year old. I WELL remember that.
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Could be the prone area is raised. The worse is when the angle is up for prone shooting. That's hard on the neck, even for a 22 year old. I WELL remember that.
Impossible for me. Broke my back so many times I stopped going to the doctor for it. I heal in a recliner chair. I sleep in it too. I haven't slept on a bed in 5 years. Back can't handle it. Anyway, my back healed with me bent over. Kind of the shape of a recliner chair. When I walk i'm looking at the ground right in front of me.
So, bending up is not possible for me. I could never hunt for squirrels. Shooting downhill is my style now.
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I dunno what the big deal is. I to have a perfect record when shooting at targets 1,000 yards away. I've never hit them once. It's a perfect record. ;D
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In Ottawa, the shooting points are raised and on an angle [slope] , which makes the prone position a lot more tolerable. Still, after a day's shooting, my neck complained
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If you look at the picture carefully, you can see the shooing position is raised - a mound, higher than the 'field' out in front of the shooters.
Also note that the adjustable iris on the tang sights staff, is not even 1/2 way up. I would suggest they are shooting no further than 600 yards,
and likely closer than that, maybe only 300 or so. left click on the picture twice - easy to see what I am referring to. In fast, look at the height of
that front globe!! I would be surprised if they were actually shooting more than 300yards when that picture was taken.
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600 years is a long time Daryl.
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silly me - a typo - corrected ::) ::)