AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: AZshot on November 24, 2021, 04:14:15 AM
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...at least it made loading easier. After shooting black powder off and on for 40 years, with very tight target loads I decided to try loose. A .440 ball in my .45 Colerain was too tight. Several panic moments when the ramrod would stop going down a foot from the bottom. So I bought some .437 and did a woods walk last weekend. How nice to just gently bump the ball into the bore with the starter, then run it down with the ram smoothly. I just shot at trees and deadfall, so don't know about accuracy, but it was nice not worrying about just having the ramrod, no steel range rod. If you haven't tried looser combos, try it.
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Before I would go to that small of a bore I would adjust my patch thickness and or lube. All my rifles except my .40 Kibker SMR use balls.010 undersized. That one is .005 undersized. I use either TOTW mink oil/grease or a 50/50 combo mink and pure neatsfoot oil. Went shooting with some guys today shooting .29 and .32 caliber squirrel Guns at paper and metal swingers. Cool and rainy day. Shot all morning and never swabbed my bore and the last ball loaded the same as the first.
Let us know how that small ball shoots for accuracy.
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I am curious, too, Mike. I've shot lots of loads that allow easy loading and do not require wiping at any time, but have found a tighter ball and patch has shot more accurately.
Of course, accuracy is subjective. It depends on what what good accuracy actually is, to everyone. Opinions are just that and most opinions are different with most people.
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A very snug load with spit patch has worked excellent for me. Nice and moist patch wipes the bore clean with each shot.
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The difference between hunting loads and target loads. My range is limited by my middle age eyesight, so looser ball/patch combos are fine.
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Loose fit is fine with me. I am not looking for clover leaf groups at 50 yards. I am fine with 1-2 inch groups.
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With proper lubrication, the last 12 inches of seating a patched ball should be easy. I think AZShot might have issues with fouling collecting at the bottom of the barrel.
Since I have started using a very wet patch with Ballistol & water (about 1:3 or 1:4), I've had very good luck with fouling remaining soft and easy loading.
I read a post by one of you a couple years ago, how you describe using a patch that's almost dripping wet. At first, I thought that was crazy... then I thought about it. As the patched ball goes down the bore, the fouling and bore surface are pulling moisture from the patch. So a patch that's very wet at the crown is probably somewhat drier by the time it goes down 40 inches of sooty barrel.
So now I never swab between shots. I pour powder and drive home a wet patched ball, which I think serves to "swab" the bore, leaving any fouling between the powder and the ball. I cannot describe how much this has improved my experience at the range. Misfires due to clogged vent holes are largely a thing of the past.
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This 50yd. 7 shot group was shot from my Bob Harn rifle using a .526 ball in a .54 with a wet .023 patch and #9 Plus. No wiping. I pulled the last one. I thought I was missing the paper. Easy loading. I could use the wooden rod in the woods.
(https://i.ibb.co/12RkV8W/Harn-rifle-group-7shots.jpg) (https://ibb.co/5csPDBH)
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This 50yd. 7 shot group was shot from my Bob Harn rifle using a .526 ball in a .54 with a wet .023 patch and #9 Plus. No wiping. I pulled the last one. I thought I was missing the paper. Easy loading. I could use the wooden rod in the woods.
(https://i.ibb.co/12RkV8W/Harn-rifle-group-7shots.jpg) (https://ibb.co/5csPDBH)
EC121,
If you can’t afford real targets, p/m me and i can send you a few. I just hate to see you shooting up your fine dinner ware.
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Anything made by Bob Harn has some magic in it.
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This 50yd. 7 shot group was shot from my Bob Harn rifle using a .526 ball in a .54 with a wet .023 patch and #9 Plus. No wiping. I pulled the last one. I thought I was missing the paper. Easy loading. I could use the wooden rod in the woods.
(https://i.ibb.co/12RkV8W/Harn-rifle-group-7shots.jpg) (https://ibb.co/5csPDBH)
Nice, there is a postal match running, ya know.
https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=68498.0
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Wayne: Those plates work fine after I rinse the food off. I was using the wife's good Noritake china but only got one shot per plate.
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Before I would go to that small of a bore I would adjust my patch thickness and or lube. All my rifles except my .40 Kibker SMR use balls.010 undersized. That one is .005 undersized. I use either TOTW mink oil/grease or a 50/50 combo mink and pure neatsfoot oil...
OK, more details. I'm using Neatsfoot oil for lube, quite wet. My patches are .012" so if you use a .437 ball, that equals .461 of things filling the bore. It's a Colerain, and measures .443 across the lands. Don't know the grooves. So to me, .437 is about right. When I was shooting .440s, they were very tight starting, even up at the bore where patches have the most lube. It took a good wack on the ball starter to get the ball in, I'd say almost hurting your hand level. Then it would ram pretty easily most of the way, maybe 4-5 lbs of pressure on the rod, until the last 4 inches.
I live in AZ, it's very dry here. As in 10% humidity. BP gets very crusty very fast. The last few inches are that crust I guess.
My old .36 Mowrey didn't have as much fowling shooting it here in AZ, and a simiarly tight combo. But it was just a .36.
I'll shoot a few on target next, and look at the patches too.
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AZshot, your combo sounds like you might be getting some blow by, what do the shot patches look like?
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They look like a brief flutter of a quail flying away from you, at about 40 yards, on a foggy morning. Oh, you mean what do they look like in hand!? I only fired a few shots with this load so far, haven't recovered any patches yet, but will. The tight load they would have some spots of burn through, or cutting on rifling. Not big holes, just a couple spots.
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OK, more details. I'm using Neatsfoot oil for lube, quite wet. My patches are .012" so if you use a .437 ball, that equals .449 of things filling the bore. It's a Colerain, and measures .443 across the lands.
I'll shoot a few on target next, and look at the patches too.
From your numbers, you have a .467" at .012" deep rifling, or .463" rifling at .010" deep rifling.
Your ball and patch combination is .437" + .012 + .012 = .461", thus, even with only .010" deep rifling, you are short of filling the grooves, thus likely have blow-past which fouls the bore, especially
at the breech.
What do your recovered patches look like?
Can you find recovered patches?
Browns streaks out from the black marks is blow-by.
Simple holes from the lands means you are likely cutting the patch from too-sharp a muzzle crown. With that, I would suggest you search for muzzle crowning threads.
Burnt large holes is from blow-by destroying the patch. Charred shreds says the same thing.
I have never used such a poor (thin) patch. The thinnest patch I will use, is 8 ounce denim that I measure compressed at .019" to .020" & that is with a bore sized ball.(same as the bore diameter).
I was using a .360" ball in my .36 Rice barrel, with a 10 ounce denim patch (.021" compressed) until I ran out of them. Now, I'm back to using .350", with the same patch.
With your combination being difficult to start, that sounds as if the crown is too sharp. Then it loads fairly easy until it does down to where the fouling has accumulated.
Solution, is a re-crown and thicker patch as with at least an 8 ounce denim. You are using a starter, which is good.
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Don't we go through this thread every 90 days or so? it sure seems like it.
It all boils down to the amount of powder you use, the size of the ball, the thickness of the patch and the lube you use.
Only change one variable at a time. This is not something you can accomplish with one or two trips to the range. It sometimes takes weeks or longer to work out the "complete load" that works in your rifle. Not my rifle or your buddies rifle that is just like yours, they are all different but similar.
Take your time, work through all the variables until you find the one load combination that is right for your gun.
So ended the sermon.
"Muskrat" Mike
HAPPY THANKSGIVING!
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Colerain specs .016" groove depth on .45 and larger, so a patch needs to be thicker than .016" just to seal.
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I'll measure my patches again when it gets light enough, I might have measured them wrong. And next time I fire it I'll get some patches. I was walking in the woods, heavy leaves and water in a creek weren't conducive to finding the patches of the 3 shots I fired. But my main goal was not accuracy. It was a smaller ball because beating on the ramrod with my hatchet and praying I can get it seated was too stressful. I knew these patches were thin, I'd tried slightly thicker with the .440 balls once. Just once, it almost got stuck halfway down and I broke a ramrod trying to get it seated. So something's gotta give. I can't go thicker patches to fill the grooves if the ball is too big to get down the bore.
I do appreciate all the help. My next plan is to keep using .437 size balls, and try a slightly thicker patch. AFTER eyeballing a few patches. If they are ok, and the gun shoots as accurately as I need, I'm done.
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AZShot,
No disrespect offered or intended here. That said, I believe your posting may mislead some newcomers or those inexperienced in our sport.
For folks who want to hit what they are aiming at plinking, on targets, or especially on live animals, accuracy is very important. I do not see any accuracy results in your posting. I would like to see a 50 yard target grouping. Or 100 yards. I would also like to see a photo of your patches.
You can indeed make your loading job easier by using undersized balls and patching, but to what end? If it is not accurate, what have you gained if you cannot hit that to which you are aiming? Just making loading easier to me is not a goal.
I believe your math is off. You have a Colerain barrel. I checked and they use .016” deep round-bottomed grooves for .45 caliber and above. So, .450” bore plus .016” groove plus .016” groove you get .482” to fill. How did you measure your bore size? A pin gauge? .443” sounds off like for a consistent company like Colerain.
Your load of a .437” ball plus .012” patching on each side (or x2) equals .461” of ball/patch. You are nowhere near filling that bore. Even if you have a .443” bore, that would equal .475 to fill, and your .461 ball/patch won’t come near sealing.
If the bore is not sealed, you get hot gasses and fouling blowing past the ball/patch combo. That gives several problems:
*Velocity variations, which leads to……
*Poor Accuracy
*Lots of fouling and harder cleanup
*Difficulty in Loading
Regarding patching, my test is to hold my fired patch up to the sun. If I can see any light through the patch, I need a denser and/or thicker patch. I use The Minute-Men untreated 100% canvas patching. I always check the fired patches, but never see light through them. Any burn-through or hole can cause the issues listed above.
In your current very dry climate, you may be getting hard fouling near the breech. Are you using Swiss? I find that Swiss has less fouling, but that it is harder. My suggestion would be to continue to wet lube with a tight ball/patch combo. When it gets too hard to load, wipe out the bore, then go back to shooting.
I think many who tight patch can relate to having to whack a ball starter to the get load down the bore. It goes with the territory.
Best wishes, Marc
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Sometimes difficulty ramming is due to the condition of the bore more than using a ball-patch combo which should work. They can get frosty and it can be difficult to see with brilliant light but you can feel it. A quick lapping with a patch embedded with valve grinding compound will smooth things up and reveal any tight spots. Now, if you follow with Mother’s chrome polish from the auto parts store, woooo-eeee now you’ve reduced loading effort considerably. Plus the stuff seems to be a rust preventative if you don’t follow with new patches to get any residue out while storing. One cleaning patch before shooting and good to go.
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"Only change one variable at a time. This is not something you can accomplish with one or two trips to the range. It sometimes takes weeks or longer to work out the "complete load" that works in your rifle. "
Ditto.
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I do virtually all my loading, woods and the club range, with the wood underbarrel rod. If it doesn't work at the range then it won't work in the bush. I've used a lot of ticking and with good results, but the results with thicker patching is better all around. Nearly all the loads are with ball .010" or .009" under bore size. An exception is the .45. I use .440" and .445" sometimes interchangeably in two of them. With patching considerably thicker than ticking the seating effort is greater but still easily accomplished with a wood rod. Usually I refer to them a "tight"; but "very snug" is probably a better description. Starting out it normally takes a good hand whack with a short starter; but with bad ra damaged hands I guess the whack is actually more like wimpy rather than hard.
Liquid lubed patches that are very wet but not actually drippy are the easiest to seat. Mink oil, mostly for the bush, not so much. But the mink oil patches do go down quite without complaint. With either there's no necessity to wipe the bore.
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One thing I don't know yet is how accurate a looser combo is. I did change only one component...the ball size. As far as measuring the bore, I used steel calipers. I'll try again with a loupe.
For determining .440 is too tight I also used my Mk 1, Mod 2 calibrated Experience. .440 is too tight with this patch, but like Rich says I could lap the bore, but that doesn't seem to be a normal issue with a Colerain, a quality barrel. I'm more of a seat of the pants guy (though an aerospace engineer for much of my career), and if it feels too tight, it is too tight. I don't want to have to use a steel ramrod and pray the ball won't get stuck. That is too tight, regardless of what measurements are supposed. And again - I'm holding the rifle and measuring and feeling what I'm using....not reading up on specs on their website. Did they make mine smaller bore? Who knows. Putting all your weight onto the ramrod and getting red faced to get a load down seems....too tight. My patches were already too think, I knew that. So I went to a smaller ball. Viola...I can load easier. Next to see if accuracy is out the window or not.
The .440 balls with the patches (remeasured, closer to .013 or .014 depending on how hard you squeeze) are as tight as I like with a fresh bore. After 3 shots I felt compelled to clean it, it was getting that rough. Here was it's accuracy at 50 yds, I shot this load for about a year, this was typical accuracy with light loads, 55 gr.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50521160576_1f19f49ac8_z.jpg)
So if super tight is doing that, now to see what looser is. I don't mean the new one is a sloppy fit. I mean I can push the ball down with moderate pressure, not gorilla pressure.
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Glad Rich spoke to the bore condition. That sounds to me, to be the culprit. A square of Maroon Scotch Brite, sprayed with WD40 and worked on a jag about 40 strokes will do wonders
for a frosted bore. A lady at Hefley was having trouble loading her .58 that her husband cleaned with HOT water. The bore was slightly more than frosted, so we did the Scotch Brite polish
to the barrel and not her husband uses cold water and she's delighted to have her .58 back that requires no cleaning while she's shooting a trail of 22 shots. She is a fairly strong woman
(farmer) who is using a .570" ball and .020" patch in the .580" bore. My daughter and wife use the same combinations, .010" smaller ball than bore and 10ounce denim at .021". All use the
rifle's hickory rod.
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I use a .437 ball with a .015 ticking patch with mink oil in my colerain 45 for hunting. Anything less than 70 gr 3ff O.E. isn't accurate. 80 gr blows patches. I think there's a fine line between enough pressure to obturate the patch/ball combo and blowing patches. loads with ease and shoots great. My trail walk plinking load is a .445 ball .020 patch wet lube and 60 gr 3f O.E. No cleaning shoots great. I have never found a loose patch/ball combo that shot very well with a light target load.
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"looser patch ball combo works"....not for me. I respectfully disagree 100%.,
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Don't we go through this thread every 90 days or so? it sure seems like it.
It all boils down to the amount of powder you use, the size of the ball, the thickness of the patch and the lube you use.
Only change one variable at a time. This is not something you can accomplish with one or two trips to the range. It sometimes takes weeks or longer to work out the "complete load" that works in your rifle. Not my rifle or your buddies rifle that is just like yours, they are all different but similar.
Take your time, work through all the variables until you find the one load combination that is right for your gun.
So ended the sermon.
"Muskrat" Mike
HAPPY THANKSGIVING!
Ditto!
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I've not had any luck with the super tight combos you gentlemen seem to enjoy either.
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Don't we go through this thread every 90 days or so? it sure seems like it.
It all boils down to the amount of powder you use, the size of the ball, the thickness of the patch and the lube you use.
Only change one variable at a time. This is not something you can accomplish with one or two trips to the range. It sometimes takes weeks or longer to work out the "complete load" that works in your rifle. Not my rifle or your buddies rifle that is just like yours, they are all different but similar.
Take your time, work through all the variables until you find the one load combination that is right for your gun.
So ended the sermon.
"Muskrat" Mike
HAPPY THANKSGIVING!
There are a lot of topics repeated here but with almost 4500 members and counting, some of these need to be rehashed and some times new perspectives are good for the discussion. ;) :)
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RichG,
"I use a .437 ball with a .015 ticking patch with mink oil in my colerain 45 for hunting. Anything less than 70 gr 3ff O.E. isn't accurate. 80 gr blows patches. I think there's a fine line between enough pressure to obturate the patch/ball combo and blowing patches."
Try The Minute-Men untreated cotton canvas patching. I don't buy their Teflon, just the plain canvas. They offer it in various thicknesses, including your .015. It is some DENSELY woven stuff. I'd be amazed if you could blow one. I used to think it wasn't inexpensive, then I looked at JoAnn fabric prices these days. Call the guy and leave a message, as he doesn't use his website or email that I can tell. Very nice guy though, with a superior product. I hope this helps. God Bless, Marc
(https://i.ibb.co/BCkxyrH/The-Minute-Men-Patching.jpg) (https://ibb.co/YLgMcy4)
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I might have to check into it. good patch material can be hard to find.
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The last 3 meters 10 ounce denim I bought was on sale 50% off. It was priced at $33.00 per meter.
At 50% off, I got 1990's price.
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Loose fit is fine with me. I am not looking for clover leaf groups at 50 yards. I am fine with 1-2 inch groups.
My optimum shooting days were from the late 1950's until the 1969,the year I got married and then after
1972 when the 2nd son was born I didn't have time and a work schedule interfered and other interests like
planes got involved along with paying close attention to 2 growing boys.
When I shot a lot,any round ball gun with that would not make a clover leaf at 100 yards was a failure no
matter whose barrel it had.All the barrels by Bill Large would if I did my part.I had exceptional eyesight then
and the 100 yard target was easy to see.I used a tight patch and ball combination such as a .575 ball and a
patch that was a cleaning patch for the M1 rifle that I bought by the thousands from Wes Kindig and used a
lube called "Blacksolve" which was a concentrate mixed with water.Tapped the ball with a starter and light wood mallet and it went down easily.One day at a match when using a 50 caliber rifle I ran out of .500 round balls
and one of the shooters gave me some .490's.I was skeptical but shot them with no change in accuracy.
Bill was surprised when I told him about this.
In 2008 I finished a 58 caliber flintlock rifle,a project started by someone else with a GM barrel and used the
.575 tightball combination from years earlier and got good results at 100 yards with my then 72year old eyes and poor sights on the barrel.Just for hoots and giggles I tried some .562 balls from a mould I had and was surprised at how well it shot and a small child could have loaded it.My powder charge was about 80 grains of DuPont 3fg.I remember Tom Dawson telling me he shot old guns using the balls from the moulds that were with them and they were "2 calibers undersisze" with good accuracy and loaded easily.
There it is,one geezers expaerinces with round ball guns over a long time.
Bob Roller
If I ever make another round ball gun it will be a 40 caliber caplock,English style with a barrel 7/8x 34 and the best possible sights.No rod or rib and a fast lock.
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Accuracy vs. seating effort is relative as to the size of the target to me. If I can keep my shots all in the black (hopefully centered) of a standard N.M.L.R.A target at each distance shot offhand I am happy considering the 66 year old eyes. I do not like a load that requires a steel range rod although I use one at the range. My loads must be able to use the wooden rod without fear of breaking it. If not they are too tight. But that is a product of the patch lube. Once the ball/patch combination is started no matter the size it should push down close to the same if the lube is slick enough. That is if the grooves are properly filled.
Bob
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OK, I just shot my "looser" combo at the range. I'm happy with the accuracy, after a cold barrel shot, the next two went into almost the same hole at 25 yards. Upper left target.
So I moved back to 50 yds, and shot the target on the right, about 1" group. I'm fine with that, as I said, I'm looking for decent accuracy that is easy to load, not 200 yd Schuetzen accuracy. The proof is in the pudding - it shoots as good as I wanted it to. And better than my super tight load.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51708428006_6d62b37284_b.jpg)
Load:
.437 ball, sprue up
.013 patch, neatsfoot lube
55 gr Schuetzen FFF powder
FFFF priming
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3 days left to enter the postal match, AZ.
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Thanks, I'll do one one day. But before Christmas may have too much work.
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Wayne: Those plates work fine after I rinse the food off. I was using the wife's good Noritake china but only got one shot per plate.
We have had our wedding set of Noritake dinnerware for almost 53 years and only the gravy bowl is missing.
Long ago discontinued and should be never used for targets under 500 yards away :D :D :D.
Bob Roller
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The gravy bowl is the most important piece. ;D
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The gravy bowl is the most important piece. ;D
Absolutely, with the hard boiled and cubed giblets chopped up and included in the Turkey gravy.
That be maka me drool!
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thick patches carry more gravy. :P
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Since the loose patch combo obviously works with my gun, I'm going to experiment with lube now. Will turkey or beef gravy be better?
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Either on the mashed potatoes or hot "meat" sandwich is fine. ;D