AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: RANGER94 on December 03, 2021, 05:47:53 PM
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Hello Everyone,
I apologize if this has been covered in the past. I am getting ready to run to Joanne’s fabric to by different patching material.
So far I have used:
Joanne’ Fabric 10oz Natural Bull Denim = .026 (to tight in all of my guns)
Joanne’s Fabric 7oz Natural Medium Wash Denim = .020 (not to bad but can be tight).
What other recommendations would you have me pick up? I want to try several different types & thicknesses. This is for incoming TVM .54 Iron PA rifle.
Thanks!!
Ranger94
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It is best to take your mic with you, I have the same denim you have and one that is .018. I have blue pillow ticking that is .018, .015 and .012 and some red that is .010. I also have some cotton drill cloth that is .014(good stuff) and some tight weave linen that is .011 but didn't hold up to being good patching. All from JoAnn's.
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I generally use pillow ticking in the range of .016" to .017" thick. Old bluejeans are another source different thicknesses - handy when experimenting.
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My wife, the seamstress, says no, use pillow ticking. That’s what we’ve always used. She says muslin will work nicely also. Muslin is less thick than pillow ticking and pillow ticking is less thick than the denims. Denim can have man made fibers in the blend which may melt.
Ez
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Fabric strength is important. I avoid cotton fabrics that are not tightly woven and strong by a “rip test”. Make a snip 1” from a corner of the fabric and rip a strip off. This cannot be done with some linen fabrics.
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I have used Joanne's ticking for years with good success. In the store I go to they have both red & white and blue & white if I remember right. The red & white is a little thinner for balls that are .005 of the bore and the blue & white is a little thicker for the balls that are a little smaller. Take a pair of dial calipers with you to check the thickness. Their ticking has lots of sizing in it so if you aren't sure after measuring have them cut a decent size sample of each and take them home and wash and dry them. You will probably have to iron them after. Just remember all patches get a little thicker after lubing them.
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see if they still carry #40 cotton drill. When I bought it it was .020" Heavy threads in both directions. Very tight weave. Was once known as pocket drill. It was used to make pockets in men's work pants. Strong and abrasion resistant.
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"see if they still carry #40 cotton drill. When I bought it it was .020" Heavy threads in both directions. Very tight weave. Was once known as pocket drill. It was used to make pockets in men's work pants. Strong and abrasion resistant."
This!
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"see if they still carry #40 cotton drill. When I bought it it was .020" Heavy threads in both directions. Very tight weave. Was once known as pocket drill. It was used to make pockets in men's work pants. Strong and abrasion resistant."
This!
There is a funny story to this.
I stopped at the local JoAnne Fabric out in Muhllenberg Twp. outside or Reading. Headed to the cotton fabric table at the rear of the store and found the #40 cotton drill bolt. Pulled some off for a fell. An elderly woman clerk then stood next to me. She said; "Let me quess you shoot muzzleloaders." I was sort of in shock. A shooter in those stores??? She then went on. "My late husband built longrifles and would use only that cotton drill. Said about the work pants pocket thing. Then went on that he son now builds the longrifles the the #40 cotton drill is all that he uses for patches. Told me to look at the weave with a magnifier when I get it home and I will se why it is so good.
Forgot to mention. I would haunt the cotton fabric sale table looking for price cuts on heavy flannel normally used pajamas. Real good for between shot bore swabs and after shooting cleaning. The heavy cotton flannel will hold a lot of soapy water or liquid bore cleaner.
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Hey Mad Monk - i am not to far from you. I have a big customer off of Marion Avenue in Laureldale (I am in chemical sales). I live in South Jersey, but am in PA often. I am a member at Delaware County Field & Stream. Small world.
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The current 10 ounce denim here, measures with my calipers, hard compressed, is .021". The last 4 meters I purchased prior to this bunch, measure with the same calipers at
.0225". So - there is some thickness difference, depending on the mfgr'.
This is for 100% cotton, no man-made fabrics included, although some denim does have these, but they are marked on the bolt label.
Always use 100% cotton or 100% linen, no matter what patching you use - no synthetics. If you pull a few fibers free and light them, they will burn cleanly, it's no melting - and where you snuff
it out with your fingers, only chared cloth remains, no hard deposits in the burn section, only soft charred cloth.
We were able, years ago now, to find a 100% cotton mattress ticking, that measure in those same calipers at .0235". it was wonderful material and I am almost out of it - just a few scraps left.
I used that stuff in my .40 Goodoien Barrel with a .395 as well as the .400" balls. Used it in the .45 GM bl. with .445" balls, in my .32 with .311" and .320" balls as well as the .50, with .495" balls.
I use the .0225" denim in all of those as well, with the same .005" under sized as well as the bore sized balls. My current .021" 10 ounce denim patches work just fine with the .495" ball in the
Beck .50 with Rice Gun Maker's bl. as well as my new Rice .36 with the .350" AND some .360" balls I purchased at Hefley, 2 years ago. Those were my best groups on the last postal match. .360"
ball and .021" 10 ounce denim patch. I was using spit, but lube really didn't matter. Any of the oils or greases I've used, loads easier than spit or a water based lubes. With a small bore and the
mink oil, loaded gets easier after the first shot, that is, the 2nd through 50th are easier, but about the same as the 2nd and 3rd.
In my big bore, I found 12 ounce and 14 ounce denims to give the best accuracy, in that one, I use .682" as well as .675" balls.
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"see if they still carry #40 cotton drill. When I bought it it was .020" Heavy threads in both directions. Very tight weave. Was once known as pocket drill. It was used to make pockets in men's work pants. Strong and abrasion resistant."
This!
This is what I use. They still sell it. It has a tighter weave than pillow ticking.
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Pocket drill is good stuff. No doubt. But, I'm sold on cotton duck. If you find that the thickness works for you, you'll likely never look back.
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Is the 40 the weight or the width of the fabric?
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Is the 40 the weight or the width of the fabric?
My understanding is that #40 is the width. But the other widths may not be the same thickness.
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I load tight and in the past used .020 Teflon with various lubes nothing else matched it. From this forum this was mentioned 10.10 oz Army Duct. Bought it tried it now all I use. That stuff is so tight a weave I had to go down .005 on ball size just to get it in the barrel.
https://www.bigduckcanvas.com/army-duck/10-10-oz-60-inches-wide/
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In my quest for thin but strong, I've wondered if silk would work for patches? I buy a lot of silk shirts, and after a year or two of washing, they get a hole and have to become rags. Is there any reason silk would not work, if the right thickness? It's a very tight fabric, but may be abrasive at shooting velocities or something.
Either way, I'm going to run to a Joanne's this weekend and go through the drill. No pun.
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when denim is to tight I use #40 drill cloth
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In my quest for thin but strong, I've wondered if silk would work for patches? I buy a lot of silk shirts, and after a year or two of washing, they get a hole and have to become rags. Is there any reason silk would not work, if the right thickness? It's a very tight fabric, but may be abrasive at shooting velocities or something.
Either way, I'm going to run to a Joanne's this weekend and go through the drill. No pun.
I don't think the silk patch would work. Silk is a very fine thread of protein created by the silkworms. I don't think it will tolerate the high gas temperatures produced by black powder. Sort of like the hair on my hand when it is too close to a pile of black powder I ignited in a test. Sort of burned and melted curled ends.
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I still have a good supply of pillow ticking (.015"), mattress ticking (.018"), cotton duck (not sure but maybe .018"-.020") and heavy, unbleached canvas (.023" to .024"), all measured compressed. I have yet to acquire any denim except for a few blue jean scraps. The mattress ticking I have is either blue striped or brown striped, measures the same and works pretty well in bores cut .010" to .012" deep. Also got a supply of red ticking but it is useless for patches at about .010".
I have rather limited use for the pillow ticking but occasionally use the mattress ticking in one or two guns. The canvas duck is great stuff and is also used quite a bit. But my go-to for some time has been the heavy canvas. It was first used in the deep groove radius cut barrels. But then I found it was equally good in square cut rifling .010" - .012" deep. It is the only patching I use for radius groove barrels. A lot depends on what barrel a particular material is used in. My .50 pistol uses pillow ticking but not any of the rifles. It also does well for patched ball in my smoothbore.
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Just picked up 22yds of #40 Drill Cloth, cotton and made in India. After washing and drying, I mic'd it at .018+. Purchased for use in .45 and .54 Kiblers, best description of the drill cloth is a lighter duty canvas.
Coupons that might help:
https://www.joann.com/coupon/?icn=global-deals&ici=25tp-fsnm
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Sounds like that should work. Did you measured it with a mic, or calipers?
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Micrometer
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In my quest for thin but strong, I've wondered if silk would work for patches? I buy a lot of silk shirts, and after a year or two of washing, they get a hole and have to become rags. Is there any reason silk would not work, if the right thickness? It's a very tight fabric, but may be abrasive at shooting velocities or something.
Either way, I'm going to run to a Joanne's this weekend and go through the drill. No pun.
I don't think the silk patch would work. Silk is a very fine thread of protein created by the silkworms. I don't think it will tolerate the high gas temperatures produced by black powder. Sort of like the hair on my hand when it is too close to a pile of black powder I ignited in a test. Sort of burned and melted curled ends.
That can't be right...
"Silk... 'nother 40 yards." ;)
Mike
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Only in Holly Woods. ;D ;D
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When buying blue striped pillow ticking at JoAnns. They have two types. One is thicker than the other and is purported to be called mattress ticking. The other blue, red, brown striped ticking is thinner and doesn't always work for me. They are all together so you will know the correct one when you handle them.
Bob
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A few years ago, we came across a mattress ticking at a local sewing shop. This material, 100% cotton we called mattress ticking, a very tightly woven cloth that turned out
to be a SUPER patch material for ALL of us up here. Compressed in dial calipers as tightly as I can squeeze the tines between forefinger and thumb, after washing it measures (just re-did it)
.023". I've even used this material in my .32, with .320" balls and in my .40, with .400" balls, being dead soft lead, of course (from X-Ray Room wall lead sheeting). It also shot well
in the .58 Kodiak with .562" balls as well as .574" balls. Taylor's A. Verner .50 with .495" balls, my .50 Beck (by him) with .495" balls, my old .45 with .445" balls and the .69, with .682" balls.
It was even "perfect' in the 20 bore (choked) with .595" balls.
Alas, we can find no more. I still have a few scraps.
Red, White, Light Blue and Dark Blue stripes.
If I could find a bolt of this stuff in Canada, I would buy at least 1/2 of it.
(https://i.ibb.co/VV62Z68/Mattress-Ticking.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jhtg2tF)
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Gotta go to JoAnn's now and pick up my order. Might buy some more while I'm there. Pocket drill is first, then some ticking and I'll peruse the linen while I'm there-hard to tell much about it by reading. I've never experimented beyond scrap denim and don't have a lot of that. I feel some shooting coming on and will need patches!
While I'm there I may as well check all their ticking and linen. Hmm, calipers or mic? How much thickness change should I expect from raw to washed 2x? Have I missed that detail before?
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Denims (and the Mattress ticking I pictured) usually get softer and a thou thicker, both of which are good, but only if you have a smooth bore. ;D
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Denims (and the Mattress ticking I pictured) usually get softer and a thou thicker, both of which are good, but only if you have a smooth bore. ;D
Hope to find some in the 18-22 thou range. I haven't been into a fabric store in decades.
Edit. They canceled my order, neither in stock. I'll have to find one with pocket drill before I'm going in.
Edit 2: I re-ordered for delivery instead of going in to the next nearest store with questionable stocks. Drill and Ticking.
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Joannes should have 8,9,10 & 11 ounce denims.
Here, I've had and measured the 8 ounce as about .018 to .020" depending on make. 10 ounce at .021" to .0225" and 12 ounce at .030, 14 ounce at .034", using calipers.
With a mic, I find the 12 ounce at .025" and 14 ounce at .030".
I tried turning the barrel down on the mic. and got 14 ounce down to .002" - yes - 2 thou., so technique is VERY important and must be repeatable - by you. Measure what
works for you. I found I cannot trust OxJoke so I do it myself. Their .018" measured .015" and their .022" measure .018" - for me.
.018" denim worked in my .32 and will work in my .36, but that is it. It is too thin for my larger bored rifles.
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Heading to Jo Ann Fabrics tomorrow after the gym. I'll report on what's available tomorrow night.
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I went to JoAnn Fabrics today after the gym and pretty much found what I was looking for, but not necessarily the fabric manufacturer I sought. To wit, there were two thickness of blue striped pillow ticking (and plenty of it), .014" and .018". The .011" - .012" twill took a bit of searching and wasn't grouped with the "Utility Fabrics," but with "Sport Fabrics." and was a different brand than I wanted ("Sew Classics" is what I was looking for.) Btw, even though it's thiner material, I've never experienced a burned up or torn patch when using it. From what I could see there was no shortage of fabric or panic buying of ML appropriate material and the store personnel were most helpful. Two caveats though: the muslin and twill fabrics almost look alike so you have to measure their thickness. Also, you have read the data on the cloth bolt itself in order to ensure you're purchasing 100% cotton cloth.
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IIRC these patches were fired in a .45 (.012" grooves). But for the life of me I can't remember if it's pillow or "mattress" ticking. The ball was .440" and maybe Hoppes lube. They survived rather nicely. Obviously a few years ago I'm sure. For me that's reason enough NOT to get rid of my pretty good supply of blue, and brown, ticking. I don't use it very often but it's nice to have it to fall back on.
(https://i.ibb.co/9GKbr7t/PICT0523.jpg)
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(https://i.ibb.co/ThR7d9t/Sierra-Exif-JPEG.jpg) (https://ibb.co/zfbBDqZ)
(https://i.ibb.co/H4FVtdS/Sierra-Exif-JPEG.jpg) (https://ibb.co/2hnyvN9)
I prefer the #40 Cotton Drill from Jo-Ann's.
I also did a test with 0.010 fine cotton cloth and a loose ball to see what the difference would be on target.
There's a difference but not as much as I expected.
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I prefer the #40 Cotton Drill from Jo-Ann's.
I also did a test with 0.010 fine cotton cloth and a loose ball to see what the difference would be on target.
There's a difference but not as much as I expected.
That vertical stringing looks like velocity variation to me. Try again at 40 or 50 to see how things open up--would be my next move. But also I know that after a number of shots you'll have to swab for that patch burning combo. But you may swab all the time anyway. Thanks for the report. My cloth gets here tomorrow and I might get to shoot on the weekend. TODAY would have been so perfect, it was warm enough (over 50 once the sun got up) and calm, and no bugs (overcast would have been better, but we can't have it all)... loved being employed outdoors today.
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Thank you Wade for the suggestion. I do need to shoot it at 50 yards for a second evaluation. I used the smaller ball and the thinner patch to see what might happen in a woods walk where I have to load from the pouch, and I want an easy to load ball with patch. I'm going to have to watch the light and the wind for the horizontal stringing.
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You can have an easy way to load and have to wipe the bore as well as getting horrid accuracy, or have a relatively easy way to load from the pouch, which is what we all do up here
and get good accuracy right to our longest target at 100 meters(109yards).
Your second picture of .535" ball and .017" patch, is about the bare minimum. The guys here with .54's, use a .535" ball and 10 ounce denim, which is .021"compressed in calipers.
It can[t be too hard to load, my daughter and wife use the same patch, only with a ball .010" smaller than the bore(.530").
I am surprised you were able to find any shred of the .010" patch, due to the ULTRA sloppy fit of ball and patch.
Back in the early 70's, Lyman knew what a proper ball & patch fit looked like.
In order to get this fit, you need "some" compression in the bottom of the grooves.
Mathematics is your friend.
(https://i.ibb.co/6FmFBNy/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/rHmHsvQ)
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I got some pocket drill and the red striped ticking. After a hand washing in hot water and drying one time I measured .018" and .016" respectively. I'll try them out when I get a suitable weekend or the, now rare, day off. It'll be my first departure from denim.
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A few years ago, we came across a mattress ticking at a local sewing shop. This material, 100% cotton we called mattress ticking, a very tightly woven cloth that turned out
to be a SUPER patch material for ALL of us up here. Compressed in dial calipers as tightly as I can squeeze the tines between forefinger and thumb, after washing it measures (just re-did it)
.023". I've even used this material in my .32, with .320" balls and in my .40, with .400" balls, being dead soft lead, of course (from X-Ray Room wall lead sheeting). It also shot well
in the .58 Kodiak with .562" balls as well as .574" balls. Taylor's A. Verner .50 with .495" balls, my .50 Beck (by him) with .495" balls, my old .45 with .445" balls and the .69, with .682" balls.
It was even "perfect' in the 20 bore (choked) with .595" balls.
Alas, we can find no more. I still have a few scraps.
Red, White, Light Blue and Dark Blue stripes.
If I could find a bolt of this stuff in Canada, I would buy at least 1/2 of it.
(https://i.ibb.co/VV62Z68/Mattress-Ticking.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jhtg2tF)
Looks like top shelf stuff for round bottom rifling.
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Recent haul from Jo Anns:
(https://i.postimg.cc/15H1DRTw/C623-F62-C-23-DF-431-A-962-E-EE52-E561-C216.jpg)