AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Contemporary Longrifle Collecting => Topic started by: MartyB on December 27, 2021, 05:31:56 AM
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(https://i.ibb.co/7yMJ9KT/20211205-144508.jpg) (https://ibb.co/RHrp5cM)
(https://i.ibb.co/Pc8GVvW/20211205-144517.jpg) (https://ibb.co/HtQT9fP)
(https://i.ibb.co/bszjmp6/20211205-144616.jpg) (https://ibb.co/n7zqmhw)
(https://i.ibb.co/qYwbXrs/20211112-200325.jpg) (https://ibb.co/YBGvYLk)
(https://i.ibb.co/PWkwXxR/20211118-202132.jpg) (https://ibb.co/pKqJV2g)
(https://i.ibb.co/Y2xLYwq/20211118-202056.jpg) (https://ibb.co/F6FDNCj)
(https://i.ibb.co/Wgvp52X/20211118-202013.jpg) (https://ibb.co/QrvjQKV)
(https://i.ibb.co/mbPYJMx/20211118-202040.jpg) (https://ibb.co/CmSXBTr)
It seems to be .55 cal
No makers marks, or clues that I can find.
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Everybody built those in the 70's, no telling who made it without a signature
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Everybody built those in the 70's, no telling who made it without a signature
Guilty as charged!
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Not too bad and more than adequate for deer or black bear.The lock is typical of those usually seen on old American guns.
Bob Roller
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Thanks for the info guys.
I think I might get it refurbished and give it to my friend.
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I am not sure I quite understand that breech. Is it a patent breech, a tricked out drum and nipple, or something welded on the barrel? I would look at that closely before dumping a lot of powder in it.
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Thanks for the info guys.
I think I might get it refurbished and give it to my friend.
Nix the refurb.
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Somewhere, if the name was not removed, there is a Bill Large Hawken barrel signed to Daniel Wildfire Phariss IIRC. I got it after my return from the unfriendly side of the Pacific and it came Percussion instead of flint so I sold it to some one.
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I would not mess with it. It looks OK and unless its been shot with highly corrosive “replica powder” or not cleaned properly it should be fine as is. I don’t think thats a Bill Large breech. But then I don’t know everything he did by a long shot.
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But before passing it on or shooting it I would debreech and check the fit and the bore condition. If it has been shot with replica powder and has a fouling trap in the breech there could be “issues”.
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Thanks for the info guys.
I think I might get it refurbished and give it to my friend.
Nix the refurb.
I agree, leave the character of that rifle as it is.
Dennis
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I ran a few patches, the bore was smooth, and relatively clean.
Here's some more photos.
I don't know about breaches.
I don't think the rear sight is original to gun.
It might have had a peep on the Tang.
(https://i.ibb.co/mcyfCD0/20211228-190301.jpg) (https://ibb.co/VqCfWjx)
(https://i.ibb.co/p2B2dfQ/20211228-190032.jpg) (https://ibb.co/R2k2c3N)
(https://i.ibb.co/2vQxSft/20211228-190420.jpg) (https://ibb.co/9bL6hCT)
(https://i.ibb.co/NT47Y2t/20211228-190413.jpg) (https://ibb.co/y43VsFd)
(https://i.ibb.co/crmDv4V/20211228-190318.jpg) (https://ibb.co/pLmJPY5)
(https://i.ibb.co/jR0w6DK/20211228-190241.jpg) (https://ibb.co/q5qgypG)
(https://i.ibb.co/Q9KDkVk/20211228-190229.jpg) (https://ibb.co/b1KbFVF)
(https://i.ibb.co/ZLCxr0p/20211228-190211.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ngSjyFN)
(https://i.ibb.co/RYSY595/20211228-190133.jpg) (https://ibb.co/4KfKQ7Q)
(https://i.ibb.co/ScDr9gL/20211228-190045.jpg) (https://ibb.co/zFWJ0gk)
(https://i.ibb.co/BKF2VX3/20211228-190015.jpg) (https://ibb.co/n8tMsHm)
(https://i.ibb.co/9G9Z87f/20211228-190008.jpg) (https://ibb.co/XVZY2qd)
(https://i.ibb.co/SfpLHDG/20211228-190001.jpg) (https://ibb.co/hYvqrxw)
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Marty, that is a patent breech. The breech plug itself is formed to include the mount for the percussion nipple.
That is a nice 1960s 0r 1970s semi-Hawken half stock. It should be a fine shooter. Clean it with a lot of cold water poured down the muzzle to flush out that breech.
Nice gun, enjoy it. It is a classic example of a high grade shooter from around 50 years ago. I would not refurbish anything.
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Thank you.
I appreciate the help.
Everyone.
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Gotta love those narrow lands and wide groves!
J.B.
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Gotta love those narrow lands and wide groves!
J.B.
I wonder if Bill Large was a pioneer of that design or if others were doing it at that time. GRRW barrels were very similar in rifling design and I’d be surprised if Bill Large’s barrels were not a major influence.
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just for the record and anyone interested,Bill Large trained a man from GRRW in barrel making and helped them
get started in that line of work.There certainly is a similarity in the style.I think Bill sold one of his rifling machines
to them.
Bob Roller
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Decent crown and nice wide grooves and very narrow lands. Nice!!
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The breech is possibly one I made when helping Bill in that time frame.Dan Pharris,IF that had such a stencil done by either Bill or myself it would be very hard to get rid of and the amount of filing or grinding involved would be obvious.Bill was notorious for putting unwanted/uneeded names and comments on the barrels.The only way to hide it would be to reindex the breech plug to the flats on the barrel.
Bob Roller
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Gotta love those narrow lands and wide groves!
J.B.
I wonder if Bill Large was a pioneer of that design or if others were doing it at that time. GRRW barrels were very similar in rifling design and I’d be surprised if Bill Large’s barrels were not a major influence.
Bill Large did not start with wide groove,narrow land barrels until the early 1960's.I had a semi military Whitworth* with an
Alex Henry 7 groove barrel that would easily shoot tight groups at 100 yards and beyond if I did my part and Bill took an interest in that system and after shooting againstit wanted to see what it was. We unbreeched that barrel and he studied it for a long time and we pushed an oversize bullet thru it and that really showed us what was going on.He made tooling and used it in his 8 groove barrels and after a while he started getting reports of fine accuracy with patched round balls from a lot of people who shot in competition.That system also made loading a patched ball easier.I also tried to convince him to copy the 12 groove harrels of N.G.Whitmore whose rifles were declared as unfair competiion according to Major Ned Roberts.Whitmore's test of the presentaion rifle he made for General Grant said that using only the tang sight and the pin head front sight that every shot (10)
hit a target rhe size of a percussuon cap round tin at 110 yards/This was with a picket bullet that MUST be carefully loaded thru
a false muzzle.Bill had a Whitmore barrel that the rifling could still be seen but never got interested in that idea.
Bill did contribute a lot to the accuracy of the round ball rifle and I am glad to have had an involvement with him for 35 years.
Bob Roller
*
A semi military match rifle was a high class target rifle with a long forearm and barrel bands like a common musket/
The sights,locks and barrels were all target grade and so was the overall workmanship.
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Very cool. I would just clean the bore, make sure the nipple isn't corroded, and shoot it. It's probably a very nice shooting rifle.
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If I ever get a day off, when it's nice out, I'm going to go shoot it.
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Bill Large sold GRRW a rifleing machine and a gun drill. Tonya Howard went back to Bill's shop and was taught how to run them. I went to work for the GRRW right after that and set up the production of the barrels. The grooves and lands were what Bill was using at that time and GRRW continued to use.
Carney
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Mr. Roller you sir are a walking time Capsule. Every time I read one of your posts can’t help but think of all the history in muzzleloading you have. Have you ever thought about writing a book? Surely would be a shame to lose all of that knowledge you have obtained through the years. I think it would be a very interesting and fun read.
Anthony
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I agree on writing the book Bob. I'm sure it would be fun for you. You could make all the notes and find someone to put it all together for you. Be kind of like reliving the past.
Tom
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Another leave it like it is vote . Very cool old rifle .
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Mr. Roller you sir are a walking time Capsule. Every time I read one of your posts can’t help but think of all the history in muzzleloading you have. Have you ever thought about writing a book? Surely would be a shame to lose all of that knowledge you have obtained through the years. I think it would be a very interesting and fun read.
Anthony
For a bit over 3 years I have been helping a lovely young history teacher who is in NC and now works as a 7th grade Social Studies"teaher.
She is interested in our muzzle loading activities and was fascinated with the copies of The American Tradition I sent to her right after we met.We have adopted her as another adult grand daughter.She also suggested I write a book but I wouldn't know where to begin.
I met her on 8July 2018 and that began a friendship between an old man and a 28 year old young woman that has been continuous.
Bob Roller
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Bob, you can write a book, just tell the truth and "write it all"! Well, maybe embellish it just a little bit.
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Too many of my memories were wiped out in 1975 by a bout with a severe influenza with EXTREMELY high fever..The hospital was going to send me home and out family doctor told the ER people NO WAY and I nearly died that night.I do remember hearing FDR's speech about Pearl Harbor but had no idea about what had happened.I remember hearing Hitler declaring war on America thru a translator,my uncle Karl Rudolf who served in Heavy Artillery in WW1 on the German side.He was married to my mother's older sister.He was part of a crew
of a big railroad gun.The turmoil in Germany after that first,unfinished war brought him and his sister to America and I really liked him.I was almost 5 years old then.
Like many others I have had many experiences but nothing that can be of any real interest in a book.
Bob Roller
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Too many of my memories were wiped out in 1975 by a bout with a severe influenza with EXTREMELY high fever..The hospital was going to send me home and out family doctor told the ER people NO WAY and I nearly died that night.I do remember hearing FDR's speech about Pearl Harbor but had no idea about what had happened.I remember hearing Hitler declaring war on America thru a translator,my uncle Karl Rudolf who served in Heavy Artillery in WW1 on the German side.He was married to my mother's older sister.He was part of a crew
of a big railroad gun.The turmoil in Germany after that first,unfinished war brought him and his sister to America and I really liked him.I was almost 5 years old then.
Like many others I have had many experiences but nothing that can be of any real interest in a book.
Bob Roller
I have heard enough stories from my grandfather ( B.W. Southgate ) about trips to Friendship in the 40's through the early 60's to know that last statement is not correct . I can not tell you how many times I have wished I hade taped him and Charlie Haffner or uncle Royland and Flemming Williams telling stories about those trips not to mention the hunting trips . I wish I had a tape of uncle Royland telling about the visits he made to Hacker Martin . All of that stuff is pure gold to me and I would bet to a lot of other folks too. I'd buy any book you want to write cause I know it would be worth reading .
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I grew up about 30 miles from Appomattox and never knew about the existence of Hacker Martin. How many times have I wished I could get a "do over" on that one.
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Found some .543 balls at totw..
Finally got a day off, with nice weather.
(https://i.ibb.co/pWGM3P9/20220130-163440.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Q8zT6c1)
The holes in the blue are from the Large rifle. 7 shots
75gr 3f
.10 patch
50yds
I don't like the sights, my eyes are not what they used to be.
The holes in the red (5 shots) are from a Sharon Trade rifle I found at the same gun show. I like those sights better.
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Interesting. In my most humble opinion, your patch is only 1/2 as thick as it should be.
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It was pretty tight loading in both guns. Thicker patching would probably require smaller roundballs.
Some practice and a more consistent sight picture is the first thing I'd work on.
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The fellows here who shoot .54's all use .535" balls and .021" to .022" denim patches &, the all load using the rifle's hickory rod.
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The "Hawken" I built used one of Bill's barrels and was 54 caliber. I used a 535 soft lead ball and surplus cleaning patches from military surplus and 90 grains of GOEX 3fg or Curtis&Harvey and it had primitive sights but then my eyes were 31 years old.I got really good groups at 100 yards with this rifle. finally sold it to Wes Kindig and have no idea where ir wnt after the sale.
Bob Roller
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Found some .543 balls at totw..
Finally got a day off, with nice weather.
(https://i.ibb.co/pWGM3P9/20220130-163440.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Q8zT6c1)
The holes in the blue are from the Large rifle. 7 shots
75gr 3f
.10 patch
50yds
I don't like the sights, my eyes are not what they used to be.
The holes in the red (5 shots) are from a Sharon Trade rifle I found at the same gun show. I like those sights better.
Hi Marty
It’s pretty obvious that sights *do* make a difference, since the same load was used in your Sharon trade rifle as your Large.
Btw, nice find on each. I like Sharon trade rifles. Missed an opportunity to buy one some years ago at Fort Bridger, and never have seen another one since. —JB
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GRRW sent Tanua Howard back to Bill's shop to learn how to build barrels. They bought a gun drill machine and a rifling machine from Bill. I hired on just after they received the gun drill and rifling machine.
Tanua showed me what Bill Large had taught him and I developed the barrel production for GRRW.
Tanua was killed, along with Les Holt, when the GRRW powder plant blew up.
Carney
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I remember Tanua Howard when he was at Bill's shop and was not aware he died when that powder mill blew up.
How many years have flown by since then??
Bob Roller
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Well, I gave this rifle to my best friend for his birthday.
He was pretty tickled about it. He grew up with his dad dragging the family to Rendezvous, and his dad even built some rifles. So he was familiar with the Large barrels.
We might even have hunting pic to share in a few months.
Thank you guys for all the info.
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A Bill Large barreled full stocked Hawken’s, with a Bill Large Forsyth style wide groove narrow lands rifled barrel is the best shooting muzzleloader I ever shot. It had Roller triggers, and lock, and my friend bought it second hand. He built a real show piece half stock Hawken so he didn’t have to be seen with that ugly old full stock. The new gun was beautiful but it never shot like to old full stock. Probably because he got into an argument with Bill Large when he tried to buy the barrel, and eventually put a Bauska barrel on it.
Hungry Horse
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Gotta love those narrow lands and wide groves!
J.B.
I wonder if Bill Large was a pioneer of that design or if others were doing it at that time. GRRW barrels were very similar in rifling design and I’d be surprised if Bill Large’s barrels were not a major influence.
The British made barrels back in the day that were similar and by the brass suppository era this style was the norm. So its been around a long time. Its far superior in a RB rifle that even equal lands and grooves since it loads easier.