AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Antique Gun Collecting => Topic started by: Mattox Forge on January 04, 2022, 12:46:33 AM
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This is an extremely nice looking rifle. I wish I could win it. They have some other nice ones up on the block in this auction.
(https://i.ibb.co/c3Fk4wP/480n10888-bv3g2-01.jpg) (https://ibb.co/7CWjsQH)
https://www.sothebys.com/en/buy/auction/2022/the-william-k-du-pont-collection-important-americana-from-rocky-hill/very-fine-and-extremely-rare-carved-and-figured
Mike
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This rifle is one of several others (discussed in previous threads) that have INRI engraved on the underside of the barrel ....
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A nice example of that marking too.
(https://i.ibb.co/fXGjCTh/Screenshot-20220103-171701-Firefox.jpg) (https://ibb.co/rQfDZXC)
Mike
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Gorgeous rifle and one of Beck's best efforts. Nice that it has the 'INRI' dedication on the barrel. I have known of this rifle for a long time and it is shown in some books. The auction staff is a bit off on the claim that there are only three others with the INRI inscription. There is at least one Beyer that is said to have it and there is a fairly early unseen wood box Beck rifle, (Rev War? it has sling swivels) that has the inscription along with a flower preserved in the barrel channel below the INRI. Hope that one of you good folks here can bring this one home to your wall. Be nice to keep it in the ALR family.
Thank you for bringing it to our attention.
Dick
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Dick is correct. There is also a signed Christian Beck [J. P. 's son] with the INRI engraved on the bottom barrel flat. Same exact location. The C. Beck also has a unreadable, soaked in oil, piece of paper in the barrel channel forward of the INRI. It is believed to be a psalm.
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I'm curious, is there a specific religious association with INRI at that time and place? I assume Catholics used it, but so do Presbyterians I think.
Huguenots and Quakers possibly not. Probably not Congregationalists.
Beck and Beyer are German names. Lutherans? I am not a longrifle historian but gather the families were related:
https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Beck-18
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Dick is correct. There is also a signed Christian Beck [J. P. 's son] with the INRI engraved on the bottom barrel flat. Same exact location. The C. Beck also has a unreadable, soaked in oil, piece of paper in the barrel channel forward of the INRI. It is believed to be a psalm.
In 2015 the (current?) owner of the rifle sent that piece of paper to me & the Moravian archivist here deciphered it, which was from the Gospel of John: "Im Anfang war das Wort, und das Wort war bei Gott, und Gott war das Wort. Dasselbige war im Anfang bei Gott.” (In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning.)
(https://i.ibb.co/TBC2rtK/Best-image-of-note.png) (https://ibb.co/xS4L36m)
In 2015, I think the rifle with this piece of paper was attributed to Bonewitz?
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Here is a picture of a N Beyer rifle that I own that has the INRI inscription under the barrel. I don't think the previous owner knew that this was there when it was sold as they never said anything about it. To say I was thrilled when I first pulled the barrel (for a different reason) would be an understatement. I had heard that it was used by Beck and sometimes by Beyer, but didn't expect to see it, much less own one of the rifles that has it.
(https://i.ibb.co/vYrx6nC/20190907-172937.jpg) (https://ibb.co/YZK7Fs4)
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Is the script engraved into the barrel actually an "I" or is it a "J"? I don't know the old script well enough to tell. The original inscription put up by Pontious Pilot on the cross would have used an "I", but that was because of the Latin. Were the gunsmiths inscribing "INRI" or "JNRJ"?
This is an interesting subject.
Mike
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It is very interesting! I've never seen this inscription as anything other than INRI, which is the way it was reproduced in paintings and engravings throughout the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries. So, despite the curves, I think the gunsmiths were engraving an "I." They wouldn't have ever seen it any other way.
(https://i.ibb.co/PWLKdQS/Screen-Shot-2022-01-04-at-9-40-34-AM.png) (https://ibb.co/bv0TkJf)
(https://i.ibb.co/PxCCsgN/Screen-Shot-2022-01-04-at-9-45-52-AM.png) (https://ibb.co/dBKKsDr)
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Sorry to blow up the thread with huge photos, but I found the Sotheby's site to be kind of difficult about capturing the images, so I thought if anyone wanted to conveniently save reference photos of this, I would post them here.
I think these auction sites are great photo references for works that we might not ever get to see anywhere else. These are some particularly well done photos.
(https://i.ibb.co/YXyVZFN/Beck01.jpg) (https://ibb.co/0KFztRn)
(https://i.ibb.co/hDVBZ7b/Beck02.jpg) (https://ibb.co/KFW2L0d)
(https://i.ibb.co/Kz5HqZh/Beck03.jpg) (https://ibb.co/BKfRZD3)
(https://i.ibb.co/BLnF6JM/Beck04.jpg) (https://ibb.co/gy4hW8K)
Mike
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2nd batch
(https://i.ibb.co/4ZrV7Lf/Beck05.jpg) (https://ibb.co/BVMCtJP)
(https://i.ibb.co/yp8B3vw/Beck06.jpg) (https://ibb.co/sCFJBx0)
(https://i.ibb.co/TYxJhW0/Beck07.jpg) (https://ibb.co/rFRqydp)
(https://i.ibb.co/j4ZrfqY/Beck08.jpg) (https://ibb.co/8847sGw)
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Last batch
(https://i.ibb.co/qJf9m4p/Beck09.jpg) (https://ibb.co/kmf0qrX)
(https://i.ibb.co/8czLCwt/Beck10.jpg) (https://ibb.co/fv8zgWL)
(https://i.ibb.co/9qxZyH5/Beck11.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Q6WDYvw)
(https://i.ibb.co/qW8tRTq/Beck12.jpg) (https://ibb.co/cC9GN4f)
(https://i.ibb.co/r30G1K1/Beck13.jpg) (https://ibb.co/BG3VSHS)
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The thumb plate is inscribed "JB". Is this possibly John Beck's personal rifle?
Mike
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Many years ago I had a J P Beck fowler that was marked INRI.
Al
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Here is a picture of a N Beyer rifle that I own that has the INRI inscription under the barrel. I don't think the previous owner knew that this was there when it was sold as they never said anything about it. To say I was thrilled when I first pulled the barrel (for a different reason) would be an understatement. I had heard that it was used by Beck and sometimes by Beyer, but didn't expect to see it, much less own one of the rifles that has it.
(https://i.ibb.co/vYrx6nC/20190907-172937.jpg) (https://ibb.co/YZK7Fs4)
Are Beyer and Beck known to be related? The link I posted above strongly suggests they could be.
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Some posit that the Beck/Beyer relationship was that of Master and Apprentice and that may well have been the situation. Early Beyer rifles look very much like they could have been make by Beck. In one of Whisker's books there are two rifles, one by Beck and the other is a fully developed Beyer gun. The Beck is signed as such, but looks like Beyer's work. I will look for the book and the references to the two pieces,
Dick
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Some posit that the Beck/Beyer relationship was that of Master and Apprentice and that may well have been the situation. Early Beyer rifles look very much like they could have been make by Beck. In one of Whisker's books there are two rifles, one by Beck and the other is a fully developed Beyer gun. The Beck is signed as such, but looks like Beyer's work. I will look for the book and the references to the two pieces,
Dick
This is what I'm talking about:
(https://i.ibb.co/QQD8QzT/Screenshot-2022-01-04-18-41-31.png) (https://ibb.co/SyfQyWM)
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I'm speculating.
If the Becks and Beyers are related, and immigrated from the Palatinate, it might have been because of the Great Migration. In 1709 a Catholic elector took over, persecuted the Protestants and some moved to America.
I also found that Maria's husband arrived in America 1731. So again speculating, perhaps they followed other relatives.
If Palatine immigrants fleeing persecution by Catholics, they were most likely Lutherans.
What significance that has to "INRI" by a Beck and a Beyer, I can't say. Just passing along a possible lead.
This was Maria Beck (Beyer's) husband:
(https://i.ibb.co/kHyXPWf/Screenshot-2022-01-04-19-07-45-kindlephoto-90133549.png) (https://ibb.co/zn5Zt0Y)
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It strikes me that "Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Jews" seems to be a belief he held strongly enough to permanently profess by engraving it onto the piece of his work most likely to last the longest, and also the one with his name on the opposite side....the barrel.
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It strikes me that "Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Jews" seems to be a belief he held strongly enough to permanently profess by engraving it onto the piece of his work most likely to last the longest, and also the one with his name on the opposite side....the barrel.
Practically all gunsmiths then/there were Christians, many devout. Sometimes inscriptions like this have more to tell us. Sometimes they are historical leads. Information like this sometimes helps reconstruct a network of associations. Sometimes it reveals a pattern. If (hypothetically) we checked and discovered that other smiths made the same inscription, we might backtrack and discover that they were Palitanate immigrants too. Or we might (again, hypothetically) discover that protestant Huguenots in N. Carolina also inscribed INRI, and make some inference about refugees from Catholic persecution.
Some denominations probably would not have used INRI. By narrowing the religion we might learn that Beck, Beyer etc were not connected to some other smith.
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All,
In my humble opinion, Beyer built this in Becks shop. I'm on the fence in regards to the engraving, but sure Beyer stocked and carved it. Henry owns / owned one of the best examples of Beyers work as did I at one time. See the photos below and compare.
(https://i.ibb.co/ZYT7d9m/CArving.jpg) (https://ibb.co/VQB5V6m)
(https://i.ibb.co/x6rtKxF/Tang.jpg) (https://ibb.co/M7JxyFB)
Van Pitman extensively researched the Becks and crafted several fine articles on the Christians (Son, Nephew and Brother of JP) and if we're lucky will comment.
Buck
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All,
Elaborating on Dicks comment regarding the Beck / Beyer relationship. This is from memory - Beyer was Becks last Apprentice. As far as marriage between the two families, that would have occurred (if at all) prior to Nicholas Beyer. Beyer's body of work is extensive and really is a great example of the departure from the high art rifle to the percussion era. The amount of his work that remains speaks to the fact that this man was a machine - possibly with an unstable mental capacity which becomes apparent at the end of his life / career. For the amount of work that this man produced he departed this world broke and alone in the Almshouse (equivalent to todays homeless shelter / mental ward). The Beck rifle at auction is a great rifle - IMHO Beyers fingerprints are all over it, doesn't take an ounce of value away from it all.
Buck
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Just got off the phone with the auction house. Had a few bucks and thought that I would take a run at the J.P. Beck KY Rifle. Well, the bids flew by and I was left in the dust. It gaveled down at 75K without the vigorish added on. That will be at least 25%. So, some lucky person is going to be very happy.
Buck, I Agee with you that Beyer surely had a hand in building this gun. It has that look with the high raised carving and the forearm molding lines. Perhaps a collaborative effort?
Dick
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For those interested in the auction prices, these numbers are without the premium.
The Kuntz atrib rifle was $81,900
The Martin Fry was $201,600
The J P Beck was $94,500
Maybe it pays to consign to Sothebys
VP
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I have done some research work on Nicholas Beyer. By far, one of the hardest to research in that very little information exits about him. I know he was born on July 10th, 1777 if you believe John Humphrey's book on Pennsylvania Births. He was the son of Michael Beyer, a wealthy man, who died when Nicholas was 11 years old. Nicholas was released by his guardianship in 1792 at fourteen years old and received money from his father's estate in 1793. Nicholas's grandfather was Benedict Imhoff, an early Womelsdorf gunsmith/doctor. Nicholas should have been of age in 1798 and does show up on the Lebanon tax rolls in 1800 thru 1811 as a gunsmith. His shop was next door to J.P. Beck and he also bought Beck's shop, according to an indenture in Lebanon Co HS, upon Beck's death. Once Lebanon became a county all records disappear. He is only listed in the 1830 and 1850 Federal Census. He didn't marry any of J.P. Beck's daughters since they are all accounted for in their marriage. I couldn't tell you if he ever married and had children as the 1830 only lists a Nicholas Boyer with one male besides himself and no females. He doesn't show in the remaining ceunsus for that area. His rifles show he used Beck's hardware which wouldn't be unusual living next door to the supply. It seems hard to believe that JP Beck would let an apprentice, which it seems he was, move next door and work unless they were working together. I am not sure how to explain the difference in styles if they were working together. Just my thoughts.
VP
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Dick - I agree, there are many pieces that would appear to be collaborative. This example is one of the finest specimens of both Smiths work - a barn burner if I may quote you.
VP - Great information, the info regarding his father is new to me. My take is that he was a machine - excellent craftsman and it's apparent in his early works and the volume of work that remains in existence. That said, his business and finance abilities do not appear to match his skills as a craftsman. This is something I've seen all too often in the trades, and this mans story appears to have the same hallmarks.
Just my 2 cents.
Buck
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VP the prices you quoted are correct however they do include all additional buyer charges. Also for those interested, the John Rupp rifle that has been discussed at length on this forum sold for $60,480 including all buyers charges
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In relation to the Beyer Beck connection:
Wild goose chase but in Sept. 27,1740. Ship the Lydia interestingly has a Nicklas Beyer and a Johan Jacob Beck on the same ship.
JP Becks father Johan Christian Heinrich Beck came over on the ship the Dragon Sept.26, 1749. 9 years later,
Both the above ships left from Rotterdam to Philadelphia. Its not uncommon for relatives to embark at a later time. Researching Beyer's ancestry, as well as Johan Christian Heinrich Beck's could lead to some interesting information .
FYI the Becks were Lutheran in their religion.
One of these days I need to get to Germany to pull some church records.