AmericanLongRifles Forums

General discussion => Gun Building => Topic started by: MeliusCreekTrapper on January 07, 2022, 04:37:03 AM

Title: Acraglas gel
Post by: MeliusCreekTrapper on January 07, 2022, 04:37:03 AM
Can't seem to find it anywhere. Looking for some to bed a smoothbore barrel in an inlet that is a touch too big.
Are there any other products that could be used in place of acraglas? The filler will be visible, so the filler needs to be able to be dyed.
Thanks.
Title: Re: Acraglas gel
Post by: snapper on January 07, 2022, 04:54:16 AM
Keep in mind that is nothing other then an epoxy.

Play around with epoxy from the hardware store to see what you can do.   I have used leather dye and saw dust to color epoxy.

Fleener
Title: Re: Acraglas gel
Post by: PAFlinter on January 07, 2022, 04:59:37 AM
I like pro bed.  It's already brown and a SMALL amount of inlet black mixed in makes it darker and very hard to see.  Comes with release agent as well.  Good stuff.  I get mine from Muzzleloader Builders Supply
Title: Re: Acraglas gel
Post by: longcruise on January 07, 2022, 05:10:46 AM
I use this to laminate bows.  Having used AcraGlas Gel, I swear it's the same thing.  It will accept coloration.

https://www.reynoldsam.com/product/ea-40/

Title: Re: Acraglas gel
Post by: rsells on January 07, 2022, 07:22:38 AM
I get my Acraglas gel and liquid directly from Brownells.  I checked their web page and they are showing both types in stock.
                                                                     Roger Sells
Title: Re: Acraglas gel
Post by: Dphariss on January 07, 2022, 08:44:34 AM
Keep in mind that is nothing other then an epoxy.

Play around with epoxy from the hardware store to see what you can do.   I have used leather dye and saw dust to color epoxy.

Fleener

All epoxies are not created equal. And like many modern items it can be engineered to be better at certain things or so I have read.
I like the Gel and used it more years back when doing a lot of brass suppository guns.
Buying just any old epoxy for gun work is something I would not advise. Based on my experiences.
Title: Re: Acraglas gel
Post by: davec2 on January 07, 2022, 10:15:49 AM
I use all sorts of epoxies in my aerospace work.  As Dan correctly implies, there are a staggering number of epoxy formulations to do all sorts of bonding, insulating, potting, bedding, etc., etc. tasks.  Some are very inexpensive.  Some are unbelievably expensive.  I use Acraglas, in both liquid and gel forms, for all my gun work since it was originally formulated for exactly that type of bonding and bedding.  I know it is an anathema to many in this community, but I Acragel bed every butt plate and every barrel breech on every rifle.  I do it on the butt plate to absolutely waterproof (for all time) the end grain wood under the plate.  I do it at the barrel breech to absolutely waterproof the end grain exposed there and to provide the best possible fit between the barrel breech and the stock evenly distributing the recoil into the stock wood and reinforcing it at its weakest point.  Other epoxies might work just fine, but if Acragel is in stock at Brownells, I would agree with Dan and not go with any generic hardware store variety epoxy. 
Title: Re: Acraglas gel
Post by: Birddog6 on January 07, 2022, 01:56:16 PM
I like the Acralas Gel, & have put it around the breeches & tangs of most my rifles. I want the wood sealed good there
& I want a really snug fit. I always get it at Brownells as the shelf life will be less there as they sell allot of it.   IMHO,
using any brand of epoxy would be like saying all ML barrels or all flintlocks are equal, they are just steel.  ???
I have uses Acraglas for over 25 yrs & trust it.  "IF"  used properly it does a beautiful job.  If not used properly it can
make a simple job a total disaster. 
Title: Re: Acraglas gel
Post by: MeliusCreekTrapper on January 07, 2022, 02:57:57 PM
I get my Acraglas gel and liquid directly from Brownells.  I checked their web page and they are showing both types in stock.
                                                                     Roger Sells

Do you have a link for that? I just checked their site and the only gel product I see in stock is the 64 oz. resin, no other size resin and no hardener in any size.
Title: Re: Acraglas gel
Post by: coopersdad on January 07, 2022, 04:48:23 PM
I'm not Roger,  but I just checked their site and found it. Don't know how to send a link, but I typed Acraglas into their site search and it popped up for me.
Title: Re: Acraglas gel
Post by: FDR on January 07, 2022, 05:25:33 PM
Pre colored and in stock.
https://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools-supplies/stock-work-finishing/stock-bedding-adhesives/glasbed-kit-black-sku081050100-1054-3828.aspx

Fred
Title: Re: Acraglas gel
Post by: MeliusCreekTrapper on January 07, 2022, 06:05:39 PM
Thanks, I see that now, it wasn't coming up when I searched, I had to look at other options.
Title: Re: Acraglas gel
Post by: Bigmon on January 07, 2022, 06:31:34 PM
In the few cases where I needed to fill a void, either of my own blunder or nature's, like a knot or whar ever I have used Acraglass.  Once I had ran out of dye and so I used the same alcohol based stain I was going to use.  It worked perfect and is the least visible of all.  I still use that now when I can.  Blends better than the dye that comes with.  At least for me.
Title: Re: Acraglas gel
Post by: Dphariss on January 07, 2022, 07:26:52 PM
I use all sorts of epoxies in my aerospace work.  As Dan correctly implies, there are a staggering number of epoxy formulations to do all sorts of bonding, insulating, potting, bedding, etc., etc. tasks.  Some are very inexpensive.  Some are unbelievably expensive.  I use Acraglas, in both liquid and gel forms, for all my gun work since it was originally formulated for exactly that type of bonding and bedding.  I know it is an anathema to many in this community, but I Acragel bed every butt plate and every barrel breech on every rifle.  I do it on the butt plate to absolutely waterproof (for all time) the end grain wood under the plate.  I do it at the barrel breech to absolutely waterproof the end grain exposed there and to provide the best possible fit between the barrel breech and the stock evenly distributing the recoil into the stock wood and reinforcing it at its weakest point.  Other epoxies might work just fine, but if Acragel is in stock at Brownells, I would agree with Dan and not go with any generic hardware store variety epoxy.
I tend to bed the barrel breeches to keep out cleaning fluid and oil. It can come in handy under forend caps too.
It can also prevent tang blow out if the wood is soft. But in this case its better to use the wood for horn plugs or firewood unless you find out too late.
Not too long ago I drilled a hole through the stock in the wrong place. I did not use epoxy but with a bit of hoop jumping it “went away”  on both sides. It was a momentary case of the stupids.
I once bought some epoxy in a hobby store that was completely useless for any purpose. I use J-B Weld on rod ends and such. But its the wrong color for any use on a stock. Acura-Glas Gel is white when not dyed and looked a lot like unstained maple.
There are wood specific epoxies used in boat repair but these are like original Acura-Glas and pretty low viscosity designed to penetrate porous or rotten wood. Used it on an Airstream floor once. There is a thicker version too. They claim it uses wood based resins. The was over a decade ago and I would have to look at the cans to remember who sells this stuff. Most hardware store epoxie is pretty generic. I have heard of people successfully patching engine blocks with JB Weld.
Title: Re: Acraglas gel
Post by: D. Taylor Sapergia on January 07, 2022, 09:59:12 PM
Brownells is the distributor of AcraqGlas products and I'd be surprised if they didn't have any.
Title: Re: Acraglas gel
Post by: T*O*F on January 07, 2022, 10:57:33 PM
Notes about Acraglas gel.
1.  It's mixed 1/1 so you can mix small amounts.  Mix it on poly-plastic, cardboard or those fake credit cards you get in the mail.  The latter can also be used as spreaders.  Saves screwing around with the liquid variety.
2.  It can be thinned with lacquer thinner and injected into cracks with a hypodermic.  Whenever I or my pets get shots, I have them save the hypo for me (no needle, just the body).
3.  Mixing with their dye gives superior results.  Mixing with other coloring agents results in it not hardening and having a rubbery consistency.
4.  Forget about shelf life.  If either component gets crusty, stir it and give it 5 second zaps in the microwave until it mixes creamy again (per a Brownell tech).  I've done this with product that is over 20 years old and it still works.
5.  If you have over-run, wait until it sets up but before it completely hardens and shave any excess off with a razor blade, Xacto knife, etc.  Saves a lot of clean-up and sanding after it hardens.

Your experience may vary, but I don't care.  I've used the above tips successfully for 30+ years.
Title: Re: Acraglas gel
Post by: Daryl on January 08, 2022, 12:58:09 AM
I've used the thin Acraglas, Acraglas Gell(better for bedding than the thin stuff),  Micro-Bed and JB Weld (the grey steel "filled" stuff).

Currently (for the last 20 years or so), I've been using JB Weld exclusively with excellent results on muzzleloaders as well as modern guns.

Just got to be a pain to order anything from Brownells.
Title: Re: Acraglas gel
Post by: Darkhorse on January 08, 2022, 10:21:35 AM
Accraglas Gel stays where you put it. The same can't be said for most compounds out there.
Title: Re: Acraglas gel
Post by: R Whittington on January 09, 2022, 12:22:21 AM
I can never find accraglass in stock. I use pro-bed 2000. Easier than accraglass.
Title: Re: Acraglas gel
Post by: Clowdis on January 09, 2022, 12:45:02 AM
JB Weld will do an excellent job and can be found at most hardware stores.
Title: Re: Acraglas gel
Post by: Scota4570 on January 09, 2022, 01:11:29 AM
There are many suitable epoxies available.  Boat shops are a good resource.  When I really care I use G-flex.  https://www.westsystem.com  To make it thicker I add glass flock or walnut sawdust.  To make it black I add black iron oxide powder ( I have some  handy, no other reason).  I have used copier toner.  I have also used Devcon slow set epoxy with equal results.  I used anhydrous lanolin for release agent, again it is handy. 

Acraglass is a fine product. 

I just glass bedded a butplate today.  The toe kept chipping off due to unfortunate grain layout.  Once I got a patch to hold, I wanted to be done with it forever.  I also added a toe plate. 
Title: Re: Acraglas gel
Post by: Daryl on January 09, 2022, 02:35:11 AM
Oh yeah- forgot to add, with the J.B. Weld, as well as the older Devcon Plastic Steel 50/50 mix, I used ordinary axle grease as a release agent. Can be applied in a very thin coat and works perfectly.
Title: Re: Acraglas gel
Post by: Dphariss on January 09, 2022, 10:09:51 PM
J-B Weld is good stuff if the color does not matter. I generally use the JB Quik version. If drying time is irrelevant I usually use A-G gel.
I use paste floor wax as a release agent. I used to work on guns with areas that would gleefully lock the part in with undercuts etc. But if these places are packed with wax its a non-issue. Contact with a wad of wax seems to keep the epoxy touching from setting properly or  getting hard so it will not lock the part even if it intrudes on the hole or undercut, but in thin layers that have dried its just release agent. YMMV.
Title: Re: Acraglas gel
Post by: Daryl on January 09, 2022, 11:05:20 PM
Years ago, I bought a package of Plasticine for plugging holes or places I didn't want bedding compound. Works well on larger areas and screw holes.
Title: Re: Acraglas gel
Post by: borderdogs on January 12, 2022, 09:12:44 PM
I use Pro Bed and I haven't had any issues with it. I have used all sorts of release agents like Crisco, clay, gun oil to name a few and they all work. I tend to bed the breach area of my rifle builds because I think it strengthens a weak area. Not historically correct I know but its a small compromise in my opinion.
Rob
Title: Re: Acraglas gel
Post by: 577SXS on January 12, 2022, 09:48:20 PM
I use nothing but JB Kwik now for any kind of bedding. You have to work fast but it is really strong and brown in color when mixed. JB is really easy to mix in small amounts for tiny fixes. I haven't used Acraglass in 15 years or more, never really liked it. It was a mess to work with.
Title: Re: Acraglas gel
Post by: Dphariss on January 12, 2022, 10:45:28 PM
Years ago, I bought a package of Plasticine for plugging holes or places I didn't want bedding compound. Works well on larger areas and screw holes.
I suspect that the child’s modeling clay I have used in the past is about the same stuff. I have not done a Sharps or HiWall in a long time. Your post jogged my memory.
Title: Re: Acraglas gel
Post by: Dphariss on January 12, 2022, 10:47:50 PM
I use nothing but JB Kwik now for any kind of bedding. You have to work fast but it is really strong and brown in color when mixed. JB is really easy to mix in small amounts for tiny fixes. I haven't used Acraglass in 15 years or more, never really liked it. It was a mess to work with.
The gel has the same viscosity as JB Weld. The liquid Acura-Glas is very useful for some things. Fixing a rod in a broken wrist for example.  But not for bedding.
Title: Re: Acraglas gel
Post by: Daryl on January 13, 2022, 03:16:48 AM
I only used the thin Acra-Glass once, for a bedding job, back in the late 70's. Though, at that time, I much preferred the 50/50 Devcon plastic Steel
I bought in Vancouver in 75, I guess it was.
Title: Re: Acraglas gel
Post by: Reegee/Flint on January 13, 2022, 07:09:04 AM
I have bough t 50/50 epoxy from Harbor Freight and mix into it Fiber Glass insulation. I recently repaired a cracked motor housing on my table saw that literally blew to pieces. I assembled the jig saw puzzle and completely covered the housing with a 1/4 in of the mixture with 2 clamps around it. It has been 6 mo and no problems, Black&Decker said motor was obsolete and a replacement would cost $780.  It is a direct worm gear drive so fixing was my only alternative. I have also bedded bbls with the mixture. However the color turns out gray.
Title: Re: Acraglas gel
Post by: barracudadave67 on January 13, 2022, 10:09:42 AM
Well funny this thread came along.
 I just finished  Acra-Glas gel bedding my Pedersoli Brown Bess Carbine kit. Got the kit from Dixie late last fall. I modified it a little by installing some sling swivles. I silver soldered a lug just in front of the front barrel pin, and drilled it thru the stock, for the swivle screw. Stock is not finnished yet, has been stained with my home made stain. I made it kind of reddish. Made with LMF nut brown, and Feibings leather red stain. So far it only has 2 coats of LMF sealer.
Kind of getting anxios to shoot it. Heres a few pics. I hope they turn out   
 Dave
(https://i.ibb.co/8jw2SNj/20220101-191401.jpg) (https://ibb.co/tb6cWQb)

(https://i.ibb.co/BjxCjXy/20220112-222426.jpg) (https://ibb.co/FJMDJS5)

(https://i.ibb.co/ngMQ3xD/20220112-224954.jpg) (https://ibb.co/GxQCszV)

(https://i.ibb.co/KGRDvcc/20220112-225617.jpg) (https://ibb.co/X4NDRff)

(https://i.ibb.co/wJ6W0wR/20220112-231235.jpg) (https://ibb.co/7gyWYRX)
Title: Re: Acraglas gel
Post by: elkhorne on January 14, 2022, 08:50:04 AM
Barracuda,
Please explain the tape or cellophane that shows in your photos. Did you apply the Acraglas and then lay the barrel in over the plastic? Please explain as I need to do some bedding and am open to any new techniques I can learn! Thanks.
elkhorne
Title: Re: Acraglas gel
Post by: smart dog on January 14, 2022, 03:41:25 PM
Notes about Acraglas gel.

3.  Mixing with their dye gives superior results.  Mixing with other coloring agents results in it not hardening and having a rubbery consistency.


Hi Dave,
Laurel Mountain Stains also work very well to color AcraGlas with no effect on hardening.  Thanks for the tips about softening old resin.

dave
Title: Re: Acraglas gel
Post by: barracudadave67 on January 14, 2022, 11:36:52 PM
elkhorne
That is not cellophane, it is aluminum tape, that is used on ductwork, for heating, and Air-conditioning. It does not go in the barrel channel. i Only put it about 1/32nd down into the sides of the channel, then fold it over the out side of the sides.  The tape will keep the glass bed material that  oozes  out, from runnig down the side of the stock, and also makes it neater looking when done. I use my popsicle stick to run along both sides of the BBL channel to scrape away the material that oozes out, just before it kicks over hard, and unworkable. I also put the tape around the BBL tang area, for the same reason.
I use the Brownell spray can release agent, on all my parts. It works excellent. I also use Kids play dough to plug all holes, and spots where you don't want the bedding material to creep into.
I use extra long BBL pins to hold the bbl in place, they are also sprayed with release agent. When you go to take it apart, the extra long pins give you something to work with. also spray the BBl tang screw.
Coat, and spray everything you think will come in contact with the bedding material with release agent, lock, screws, anything, and everything.
 The last thing I do is mix the Acra-Glass gel. Everything else should be ready to bed, at this stage .   I mix Walnut sanding dust in my material, after I dye it. Spread the material into the stock with a popsicle stick. I start at the tang area, and work to the muzzle end, and smooth it as best that I can, then put your release agent coated BBL in, and secure it down, with the extra long release agent coated pins, also tighten the release agent coated lock, and screws down, because when it dries thats wher eveything will stay.
This is how I glass bed my BBls, and parts.
I hope this helps, and gives you some Ideas.

Dave
Thanks. I got a lot of insporation for this project from your articles on rebuilding the varios Bess muskets you have shown people to do. They are very imformative. I also used the book by Goldstein & Mobray.

My next project will be a NW Trade Gun.

Dave C.

Title: Re: Acraglas gel
Post by: Daryl on January 15, 2022, 06:42:32 AM
I use axle grease to keep the ooze from adhering to the wood. It is easily removed either before or after it hardens.
Title: Re: Acraglas gel
Post by: PAFlinter on January 15, 2022, 03:41:24 PM
You are doing this after you finish the stock??? 
Title: Re: Acraglas gel
Post by: barracudadave67 on January 15, 2022, 08:54:42 PM
PAflinter

NO..... Stock is not finished, It has been stained, but only has a couple coats of sealer on it. I finsh the stocks last.

Thanks:
 Dave
Title: Re: Acraglas gel
Post by: PAFlinter on January 15, 2022, 09:07:08 PM
PAflinter

NO..... Stock is not finished, It has been stained, but only has a couple coats of sealer on it. I finsh the stocks last.

Thanks:
 Dave
Was gonna say I hope not!
Title: Re: Acraglas gel
Post by: nobade on January 15, 2022, 10:05:47 PM
Probed 2000 for me. Get it straight from the source - www.probed2000.com
Something to keep in mind is while regular runny Acraglas is epoxy resin and a curing agent, Acraglas gel is actually nylon. It does eventually cure completely, but takes around 10 years to finish cross linking.
Title: Re: Acraglas gel
Post by: Curtis on January 16, 2022, 08:18:48 AM
Notes about Acraglas gel.
1.  It's mixed 1/1 so you can mix small amounts.  Mix it on poly-plastic, cardboard or those fake credit cards you get in the mail.  The latter can also be used as spreaders.  Saves screwing around with the liquid variety.
2.  It can be thinned with lacquer thinner and injected into cracks with a hypodermic.  Whenever I or my pets get shots, I have them save the hypo for me (no needle, just the body).
3.  Mixing with their dye gives superior results.  Mixing with other coloring agents results in it not hardening and having a rubbery consistency.
4.  Forget about shelf life.  If either component gets crusty, stir it and give it 5 second zaps in the microwave until it mixes creamy again (per a Brownell tech).  I've done this with product that is over 20 years old and it still works.
5.  If you have over-run, wait until it sets up but before it completely hardens and shave any excess off with a razor blade, Xacto knife, etc.  Saves a lot of clean-up and sanding after it hardens.

Your experience may vary, but I don't care.  I've used the above tips successfully for 30+ years.

Great advice above!!!!!  What Dave said x2.

Curtis
Title: Re: Acraglas gel
Post by: BJH on January 16, 2022, 05:45:37 PM
When this thread came up, it reminded me of a time a beginner did a really rough inletting job on a guns breech, and I recommend that he epoxy bed it to prevent splits etc. Heaven forbid. One of the characters that inhabited that mailing list flamed me to the point I still have blisters on my tail. It’s nice how civil we’ve become since. I normally try to avoid epoxy use, just because I’m trying to build a imitation of a product that predates it’s use. Epoxy does have its uses, and I do use it where necessary, I’m not a purest. The thread does show how a civil conversation can be. BJH