AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Gun Building => Topic started by: Hunterdude on January 07, 2022, 11:01:19 PM
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Maybe this is old news, but I was reading on Kibler Facebook page that Jim has procured a 5 axis machining center!
I am a machinist by Trade and I can say that "most" machine shops in West Michigan do not have a 5 axis, but a couple do and farm out the service to those shops that need it.
Jim's process's are proprietary, but I suspect the 5 axis machining will allow fewer setups and also possibly higher spindle speeds. most metal process CNC mills have a top spindle speed of approx 5,000 to 8,000 RPM....where as wood routers commonly run approx 20,000 RPM.
This is just speculating on my part, but I believe the 5 axis will allow more stocks to be made per day and also likely improve quality to even higher standard than we now enjoy from Kibler...impressive as Kibler stocks are all ready the best available IMHO.
Speculation on my part, but things Jim may be able to do with 5 axis is say....drill tang bolt holes on an angle without a part setup change, this saves time And improves accuracy, he may also be able to "pick out" the fine corners or difficult area's in the inlets.... Not that it's needful as they are all ready Great. Spindle speed and feed rates could improve surface fiinish, but I have no idea what the specs are on the machine he purchased.
Other info gleaned from Facebook is there is a new rifle coming out with the Fowler and looks like the Rifle may actually be released Before the Fowler. I personally want the Fowler, but More kit options from Kibler can only be a GOOD thing! I hope Jim does a Fine English Fowler eventually, if the first Fowler is a premium executed trade gun, It will suit my shooting needs(for now)
Anyone know anything about what the new rifle might be? My SMR kit is on order, so all I can do is speculate until it ships! 8)
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Fowler updates would be a welcome thing here as well....
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I would like to see this post. What is the Facebook page where you saw this?
As for a new rifle, we were teased that he was considering producing a Hawken style rifle kit.
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I would like to see this post. What is the Facebook page where you saw this?
As for a new rifle, we were teased that he was considering producing a Hawken style rifle kit.
The post can be a little hard to find, I believe there is only (1) Jim Kibler on Facebook.
Once you are on his Facebook page, look about in the middle of the screen, there is a "tool bar" and on the far left it says "Home" and "photos" and some other options....click on "posts".....the top post (At this time) is about buying Kibler gift certificates for Christmas gifts....click on the comments below this post, there where 8 comments at the time I am writing this....I think it was the 6th one down someone asked for a Fowler update....click on the comments below the Fowler update question and Jim speaks of the new rifle being about 75% done and also talks briefly of the new 5 axis plus machining center and that it should improve quality.
This is all I read, everything else in my post is pure speculation on my part. Let me know if you can not find the post I spoke of? Maybe I can make better directions, I will go back to Facebook and take a look.
Update: it was KAM Miller that asked about Fowler, click on the comments below his question and Jim Kibler typed his reply.
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I will try to make a link right to the Facebook post, but I am not sure it will work.
https://m.facebook.com/jimkibler.net/photos/a.1845115502301458/2786960951450237/?type=3&ref=page_internal&__tn__=%2AW-R
This link gets you close....scroll down till you see the question about Fowlers posted by KAM Miller....you will still have to click on reply's under the Fowler question, the very first reply is from Jim.
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I ruined a SMR tang by a fumble drop accident. I got my replacement plug in 3-days. I compared to the one I ruined. Dead nuts the same in every way I could measured down the tool marks. The thread fit was a snug hand pressure turn with no slop at all.
Even the plug face had a little "swirlie" from finishing it smooth, the "swirlie" was indexed the same as the old plug. It indexed and fit on both faces with the same torque as the old plug. No blending with the barrel, was needed. Bottom line, no fitting was necessary. I went to over it with birch wood casey hot brown. For insurance I gave it a coat of LMF slow brown to cook over night to make it exactly like the barrel. It looks perfect. Total time, 15 min. The precision of what Kibler is making is amazing. More amazing is that he is making them in quantity,
Great way to produce a gun almost exactly like someone else has done. Why would you do that?
The majority of ML shooters do that with their mass market factory made guns. His basic guns get you a couple of hundred hours into the build. From there I add custom features and art work. After that I have a semi custom rifle with a great lock and a quality barrel. If I start from a plank, remake a lock, and fabricate a bunch of parts when I get to the Kibler stage of completion I am running out of gas.
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Great way to produce a gun almost exactly like someone else has done. Why would you do that?
Because not every "new guy" knows a buddy they can pester for months to loan them an authentic Soddy Daisy to borrow for a year so they can copy it and nail the correct architecture.
Jim's kits will put thousands of critters in the stew pot over the next few years, and the "new guys" having lived with/shot great authentic architecture, (and top performing rifles) may well advance there skills to hand carve a Soddy Daisy a few years down the road vs A "Traditions" Flintlock kit failure (or similar) is more likely to cause them to leave the sport permanently.
If thru Jim's Very Hard work an average Joe collage kid can build a fine quality correct architecture rifle on his kitchen table, then go out and harvest game or place well at a shooting event....that guy/gal will be hooked for life....we will have "new blood" in our ranks and maybe GOEX will start making American made black powder for us all to shoot again. (Thank you for All you do Mr. Jim Kibler) -Ben
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Thanks!
Here is the comment mentioned. I am guessing it will be a Hawken!
Jim Kibler
Kam Miller Molds for hardware are mostly made. Some of the CAD work is done as well. Another rifle will be available first. This rifle project is about 75% done. We want things to be just right before they are released. Stocks for both of these two new kits will be made on a brand new 5 axis plus, machining center. Fit and finish should be even better than before.
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Don’t have any inside information, but Jim did pose a question here a few months back if any would be interested in a Hawken type rifle.
Bob
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We've come a long way since the many discussions years ago that stressed "old methods" of making MLers. Now we've gone high tech w/ unimaginable building accuracy w/ a company that's saturating and destroying the market of builders who produce 1-5 guns per year the "old way". These high tech produced MLers can be assembled by a person w/ zero experience and it's w/o a doubt a fine gun but the future for actual gunbuilding is becoming a dead end.
The builders who have the skill to replicate museum guns and particular styles wanted by the customer won't be affected that much by these high tech guns, but the 1-5 guns per year builders will have a difficult time competing against these high tech built guns....already there are assemblers of these high tech gun kits who are advertising these completed high tech LRs as a business. I was one of those 1-5 guns per year builders because of other obligations and finally quit because of poor eyesight and formerly regretted not building, but now perhaps I'm glad I quit.
It's said by some that these high tech kits are good for MLing because they'll introduce some into building the "old way"...... to me that's wishfull thinking in this modern age which doesn't reward hands on skills......Fred
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Spoke to Jim's wife earlier this week, and the smooth bore should be available in a couple months.
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The Hawken market is not what it was beginning in the late 1960's with John Baird's book and Tom Dawson's ability to make a copy that could be sold as an antique.It kept Bill Large,me and others busy making barrels and locks and triggers and then faded after a long run of about 10 years.The "Flint"Hawken popped up even with no corresponding relic to copy and i offered a Ketland lock with reenforced cock that was used by a few but rejected by most because I insisted on being paid to make it.
Most Americans have no idea as to the excellence of the half stock English percussion rifles in both hunting and target rifle configurations that surpass anything from Jake and Sam Hawken for the same amount of work and in some guns less work.
The locks for the English guns are usually very high quality and elaborately done but there are simpler internal configurations that work as well as the fancy ones that can be made with the technology now available.Kibler's Ketland flintlock is proof of that idea.
Bob Roller
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We've come a long way since the many discussions years ago that stressed "old methods" of making MLers. Now we've gone high tech w/ unimaginable building accuracy w/ a company that's saturating and destroying the market of builders who produce 1-5 guns per year the "old way". These high tech produced MLers can be assembled by a person w/ zero experience and it's w/o a doubt a fine gun but the future for actual gunbuilding is becoming a dead end.
The builders who have the skill to replicate museum guns and particular styles wanted by the customer won't be affected that much by these high tech guns, but the 1-5 guns per year builders will have a difficult time competing against these high tech built guns....already there are assemblers of these high tech gun kits who are advertising these completed high tech LRs as a business. I was one of those 1-5 guns per year builders because of other obligations and finally quit because of poor eyesight and formerly regretted not building, but now perhaps I'm glad I quit.
It's said by some that these high tech kits are good for MLing because they'll introduce some into building the "old way"...... to me that's wishfull thinking in this modern age which doesn't reward hands on skills......Fred
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IMO
There will always be a small remnant who want to learn the old traditional ways. There was only a remnant prior to this present period of CNC kits.
The same holds true in leather work. There are few that can hand stitch in the old traditional style and fewer who can do it with any level of competence. Most today simply pre-punch their holes in some manner and then basically lace their threads instead of stitching. That said, there are still a few who desire to learn the old ways and even a few customers who are willing to pay for that work to be done.
I dont believe these modern kits are doing anything but good by increasing the numbers of participants. Those who have the desire to do more will do it just like the guys 30 years ago who went the steps further than the masses who only halfway completed a parts set before giving up.
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The Hawken market is not what it was beginning in the late 1960's with John Baird's book and Tom Dawson's ability to make a copy that could be sold as an antique.It kept Bill Large,me and others busy making barrels and locks and triggers and then faded after a long run of about 10 years.The "Flint"Hawken popped up even with no corresponding relic to copy and i offered a Ketland lock with reenforced cock that was used by a few but rejected by most because I insisted on being paid to make it.
Most Americans have no idea as to the excellence of the half stock English percussion rifles in both hunting and target rifle configurations that surpass anything from Jake and Sam Hawken for the same amount of work and in some guns less work.
The locks for the English guns are usually very high quality and elaborately done but there are simpler internal configurations that work as well as the fancy ones that can be made with the technology now available.Kibler's Ketland flintlock is proof of that idea.
Bob Roller
I had an English percussion half stock made by Westley Richards that was a work of art and the finest handling hunting rifle I've ever owned.
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Thanks!
Here is the comment mentioned. I am guessing it will be a Hawken!
Jim Kibler
Kam Miller Molds for hardware are mostly made. Some of the CAD work is done as well. Another rifle will be available first. This rifle project is about 75% done. We want things to be just right before they are released. Stocks for both of these two new kits will be made on a brand new 5 axis plus, machining center. Fit and finish should be even better than before.
Thank you for posting this quote! I am not a member of Facebook and that may be the reason I could not copy and paste this quote with my cell phone.
If the smooth bore is 2 months out.....perhaps the new rifle is a little less than 2 months out based on the content of the quote. :D
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The majority of ML shooters do that with their mass market factory made guns. His basic guns get you a couple of hundred hours into the build.
If I had the choice of taking a couple hundred hours to build a gun or driving a nail through my foot, I'd take the nail in the foot every time.
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I don't think the new CNC high tech kit's will ever replace the [ Mike Brook's, Allen Martin's, or Louie Parker's ] of the world. There is something surreal about holding a rifle that was built by hand from a plank of wood by a true craftsman. On the other hand. I am sure there are plenty of individuals including myself. That will never have the skill to be able to build from a plank. But a Kibler kit will allow someone with limited wood working skill's like myself to " build / assemble" a rifle of there own.
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The idea that Kibler kits hurt the guy that builds 1to 5 rifles a year does not hold "water" with me. This thought process lacks Perspective.
Let's put the shoe on the other foot....lets say (You) are the "new guy" that wants to commission a rifle to shoot at the next Friendship Indiana meet....I don't think Hershel House is building anymore, so I contacted Mike Miller, it will be 2 Years before he can even Start my rifle (Kibler has not hurt him at all)......So I commission a rifle from "said" 1-5 a year builder guy who can get the Rifle done by Friendship event.....then take my new hand made rifle to event only to see some masterful built rifles! Bummed that My rifle does not look quite right....I set out to sell it and get on the Mike Miller waiting list.....only to find the Rifle I paid $3000 for can not be sold for even $700-$1000
So if Kibler is keeping the "new guy" from being taken to the cleaners, it IS healthy for the sport.
It is not my intention to sound harsh to the builders that dabble in rifle building, BUT just because a rifle was "hand hewn" from a tree....and took "a really long time" to make, does not guarantee it ends up as Art in the shape of a Rifle. That comes from the Skill in the Master builders hands that can take a lifetime to develop.
If Kibler kits encourage 1 to 5 rifle a year builders to advance there skills to a higher level of art form, then They will also have a waiting list of folks willing to get in line and wait for quality that equals Art itself. Hershel's rifles now command much more $$$ used than the buyer paid for them new....this is also an indicator of when a builders skills have reached Art level.
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The Hawken market is not what it was beginning in the late 1960's with John Baird's book and Tom Dawson's ability to make a copy that could be sold as an antique.It kept Bill Large,me and others busy making barrels and locks and triggers and then faded after a long run of about 10 years.The "Flint"Hawken popped up even with no corresponding relic to copy and i offered a Ketland lock with reenforced cock that was used by a few but rejected by most because I insisted on being paid to make it.
Most Americans have no idea as to the excellence of the half stock English percussion rifles in both hunting and target rifle configurations that surpass anything from Jake and Sam Hawken for the same amount of work and in some guns less work.
The locks for the English guns are usually very high quality and elaborately done but there are simpler internal configurations that work as well as the fancy ones that can be made with the technology now available.Kibler's Ketland flintlock is proof of that idea.
Bob Roller
Its pretty obvious that the 1/2 stock Hawken came from the English sporting rifle. The look from the lock forward is identical to the double key English 1/2 stock rifle of the late 18th and early 19th C.
However, in the usage the rifles were put to in the American West the English rifle had some major problems. They were often overtwisted and thus were very limited in velocity. See “The Sporting Rifle and Its Projectiles” by Forsythe. They were weaker in the wrist than the long tang Hawken. Francis Parkman writes of meeting with a couple of English sportsman during the trip that resulted in his “The Oregon Trail” and both their rifles had been broken in the wrist and repaired. Horseback use is notoriously hard on firearms too this day. I am sure that with some of the horses in use in the American West it was even worse. Deer stalking in some estate in England was not like riding horse in Wyoming 1000 miles from the gunsmith that made the rifle. And the Hawken bros were not catering to the same clientele as Manton for example. The rifles and shotguns made for landed gentry, peers and royalty were a far cry in most cases from what the common people would use (if they even could). So comparing a
Rifle made for the Duke of York or some such to a rifle made even for someone of means like Ashely is an applied to oranges thing.
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Fred: I don't think we have a thing to worry about. There will always be those builders who build from scratch, and I believe their work will always be cherished. I think back to why I do this craft, and it certainly was not to make a lot of money. I needed to fulfill something within me and this need is as strong now as it was when I first became interested and able to do the work. I'm confident that others feel the same way.
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Fred: I don't think we have a thing to worry about. There will always be those builders who build from scratch, and I believe their work will always be cherished. I think back to why I do this craft, and it certainly was not to make a lot of money. I needed to fulfill something within me and this need is as strong now as it was when I first became interested and able to do the work. I'm confident that others feel the same way.
I agree....my Grandfather said "if you study a "craft/skill" long enough, and hard enough....it will begin to reveil it's secrets to you.
I think many of the great rifle builders began building rifles even though they could not sell them for profit....they build for the love of the process and to make each rifle better than the last.....eventually the proficient skill and Art form comes, and they find there work is in demand. Only a select few will be able to feed a family on gun building, but we can all enjoy the sport and craft on our own terms.
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I have closely examined the Parkman rifle which was a J&S Hawken but marked Hoffman&Campbell.It was not a strong gun in spite of the trigger bar reenforcement and terribly weak thru the lock area.
Bob Roller
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Hi,
I am very excited to hear this. I really support Jim and Katherine's efforts because they provide a level of quality to customers who had so few good options available to them. Really fine traditional muzzleloading guns are now available to a host of folks who are not inclined or in a position to build their own guns from scratch or most of the the other kits. Moreover, many folks may simply not want or be able to put out that effort. So they are stuck with a bunch of mass produced garbage. Katherine and Jim offer them reasonably priced superior designed and produced alternatives. We need to remember that not everyone wants to work at or has the time and situation to develop the skills to build from scratch. Jim and Katherine offer them something far better than the mass produced junk they had available.
dave
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The majority of ML shooters do that with their mass market factory made guns. His basic guns get you a couple of hundred hours into the build.
If I had the choice of taking a couple hundred hours to build a gun or driving a nail through my foot, I'd take the nail in the foot every time.
;D Laughed so hard, I almost choked !!!! ;D Pure gold !
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Hi Fred,
The world has rarely ever rewarded those with hand skills. The gun makers of yore worked for peanuts and only their shop or business owners had the chance to get wealthy. The only real difference is we are now much more an "instant gratification and throw away" culture. Jim and Katherine offer high quality products to folks who mostly had commercial junk available to them. Sure there will be some trying to use Kibler kits as an easy way to palm themselves off as "custom" builders but most lack any capacity to make their guns into anything but Kiblers. And that is OK in my book. I don't think it takes work away from any other custom builders except maybe those few who try to work within the same price points. I think there is room for everyone. Unfortunately, skilled hand working gun makers will almost never be paid what their time is worth and it has always been so.
dave
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I have for years detested “kits” though I have done a few. Kibler’s work, however, is different. All the objections are gone. I built one and have one or maybe 2 on order.
I think he has done us a service in general and while it could have an impact on the scratch builder it’s the coming thing I think. So get used to it. I actually applaud Jim Kibler for this.
I wish someone would do a mid-1830s J&S Hawken 1/2 stock like the ETC rifle in Helena or one of the earlier rifles shown in Baird’s book. With an early breech, the long trigger bar and tang. The fully evolved, long tang and trigger bar are by far the best, most durable ML hunting rifle ever produced. A flint version would not upset me either. The shotgun butt English rifle is great too, and rifles over 54-58 are better with the English buttstock design. Yes I have hunted with and shot both.
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Dan, I agree with you and Dave - Jim's kits are attracting folks who otherwise wouldn't even think of building a longrifle, and find that custom makers are fairly high priced.
Kibler provides a "personalized" firearm that most any builder will be proud of. AND - he leaves plenty of room for personalization, should a customer lean in that direction. Heck, he even has "How To Do It" videos, detailing every step in the process.
And the result is a great draw for MORE people to join our muzzle-stuffer crowd!
The type of muzzle loading firearms that we use (and make) is really a far cry from the 409 primer group. No fiberglass, no "in-line" actions. Just wood and steel and brass, as they have been made for over 250 years, and really had a big footprint in our history.
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I suspect the commercial mass producers are taking notice of the Kibler's success with their historically correct offerings and are thinking, "perhaps we better start producing rifles that actually look like the guns we named them after".
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I suspect the commercial mass producers are taking notice of the Kibler's success with their historically correct offerings and are thinking, "perhaps we better start producing rifles that actually look like the guns we named them after".
I doubt it. Even with Kibler's success and his amazing products, I doubt he is making a dent in the sale of imported, mass produced rifles available through popular sporting goods stores like Cabelas. Kibler's rifles are by far better than theirs, but most of the people buying a $500 Lyman "Trade Rifle" or Traditions "Kentucky" aren't as interested in historical accuracy or don't know as much about historical accuracy even if they would be interested. They are more interested in getting a "cool muzzleloader" to go shoot or to take advantage of muzzleloading hunting seasons. That's why tons of "Hawken" and "Kentucky" rifles out there are nothing like the originals in any of the finer details, but they have remained popular for generations now. I've seen a bunch of social media posts and YouTube videos over the years from people that know a lot more about modern guns that clearly think that a Traditions, Pedersoli, Lyman, etc. rifle is "historically accurate" simply based on the company's advertising, including influential people in the gun world. The bulk of their audience doesn't know the difference since they aren't history minded muzzleloading nerds like the wonderful folks on this forum.
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Seth,
You nailed it.
Don Richards
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Maybe this is old news, but I was reading on Kibler Facebook page that Jim has procured a 5 axis machining center!
I am a machinist by Trade and I can say that "most" machine shops in West Michigan do not have a 5 axis, but a couple do and farm out the service to those shops that need it.
Jim's process's are proprietary, but I suspect the 5 axis machining will allow fewer setups and also possibly higher spindle speeds. most metal process CNC mills have a top spindle speed of approx 5,000 to 8,000 RPM....where as wood routers commonly run approx 20,000 RPM.
This is just speculating on my part, but I believe the 5 axis will allow more stocks to be made per day and also likely improve quality to even higher standard than we now enjoy from Kibler...impressive as Kibler stocks are all ready the best available IMHO.
Speculation on my part, but things Jim may be able to do with 5 axis is say....drill tang bolt holes on an angle without a part setup change, this saves time And improves accuracy, he may also be able to "pick out" the fine corners or difficult area's in the inlets.... Not that it's needful as they are all ready Great. Spindle speed and feed rates could improve surface fiinish, but I have no idea what the specs are on the machine he purchased.
Other info gleaned from Facebook is there is a new rifle coming out with the Fowler and looks like the Rifle may actually be released Before the Fowler. I personally want the Fowler, but More kit options from Kibler can only be a GOOD thing! I hope Jim does a Fine English Fowler eventually, if the first Fowler is a premium executed trade gun, It will suit my shooting needs(for now)
Anyone know anything about what the new rifle might be? My SMR kit is on order, so all I can do is speculate until it ships! 8)
Hunterdude,
You've nailed it pretty well. Yes, we have a new stock machining center on the floor right now. This will be significantly more capable than our current machine producing stocks on a number of levels.
Generally, increasing the number of axis of a machine allows for fewer set-ups during machining. This alone increases productivity and quality. In addition, as mentioned, a more complete stock will be able to be produced. Corners can be "picked" out etc. My goal is to basically eliminate the need for a chisel or knife for any inletting. With the size (25,000 lbs) and rigidity of this new machine I suspect surface finish to improve as well. Yes, it has a high speed spindle (greater than 20k rpm).
One of the big capabilities this will add is the ability to easily cut for inlays, patchboxes etc. Finally one of the most exciting capabilities this machine will offer is the ability to perform fantastic incised carving. We'll be adding some rifles where incised carving is very appropriate to our line-up to take advantage of this capability. In order to carve a stock well, very high-quality stock wood will be required. With this being the case and to secure availability of curly maple, we are in the process of setting up to mill our own logs. This has been a pretty big project but fun. It's involved buying a straight truck to haul logs, a sawmill, drying kiln etc.
Yes, we are working on another rifle offering. This is based to some degree on the original commonly referred to as the "Woodsrunner" rifle. It should make for a fantastic handling rifle. This project is about 75% complete. The fowling piece will follow. It is about 25% complete. Devoting time for developing new designs has been a challenge for us, so this past year we have been fortunate to have the help of Eric Von Aschwege. He has been working to learn wax injection mold making etc. and doing a fine job.
I can say with certainty that our presence has expanded the world of traditional flintlock rifles. Many of our customers are entirely new and now may become part of this culture we all enjoy. I was talking with a supplier the other day, whom many of you would know. His comment was that all of us are competing for a couple thousand rifle sales a year. I won't be specific about our sales, but I can say this isn't true. In the recent past, this was much more of an exclusive club. There were significant obstacles to become involved. I believe we've changed this. Some might like the idea of this being their little club, but times are changing. Many of the people involved in the muzzleloading world are traditional, older, conservative and don't like change. This goes for organizations as well. When we look at this, it kind of makes us shake our heads.
As far as whether we are good for custom gunbuilding, I don't really know. I do know, that the idea of significant numbers of people devoting a large part of their lives to becoming custom gunbuilders isn't reasonable to expect. Especially with the mindset and world we live in today. Times change.
I may have missed some points, but I've posted a lot already. Maybe we'll do a few videos about some of the topics we've talked about here. Thank you for all the kind words of support. We had a fantastic year in 2021 and expect this year to be even better.
All the best,
Jim
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I suspect the commercial mass producers are taking notice of the Kibler's success with their historically correct offerings and are thinking, "perhaps we better start producing rifles that actually look like the guns we named them after".
They would need someone to make something that looked right. AND some are making guns for people who think a rifle is supposed to be stocked like a Win M-70.
Dan
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Jim, thanks for recapping your thoughts and providing us with a clear picture. You are so fortunate to have Eric on board too. He's a natural and definitely "has the knack". And a finer young builder doesn't exist. Nicely done.
As for the rest of us, we are excited to see what is next from your shop.
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Dad gumit. I was counting on a new Hawkins rifle from Kibler..... >:(
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Dad gumit. I was counting on a new Hawkins rifle from Kibler..... >:(
Don’t worry Mike. After the two projects mentioned, a Hawkins is next!
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Dad gumit. I was counting on a new Hawkins rifle from Kibler..... >:(
Don’t worry Mike. After the two projects mentioned, a Hawkins is next!
Full stock or Half stock, Flint or percussion?
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Dad gumit. I was counting on a new Hawkins rifle from Kibler..... >:(
Don’t worry Mike. After the two projects mentioned, a Hawkins is next!
Full stock or Half stock, Flint or percussion?
It will definitely be a half-stocked percussion.
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When you design the new "woodsrunner" rifle how about a little shorter LOP. That is the reason I haven't bought one of your kits.
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Hunterdude,
You've nailed it pretty well.
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Mr. Kibler, thank you for taking the time from your busy schedule to give a quite detailed update!
I am happy my speculation was close! I was thinking about very practical advantages of 5 axis machining a gun stock, but the ability to "Carve" decorative features is awsome!
I very much wish I could be an employee at Kibler longrifles....is there any upland bird hunting in Ohio? 8)
Though I fear there is not much time for hunting at the Kibler shop?....The pace must be brisk plus 120% Warp speed busy.
I have to chuckle at the negative minded folks that predicted SMR rifle market would be saturated after a year or 2....I believe it is going on 5 years with a 10 week backlog of orders being pretty normal.
It seems High end quality at a fair price is a business model that Never goes out of style.
Can someone point me to a photo of a nice example of a Woodsrunner Rifle? Maybe it's the Rifle I did not know I need yet?
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Jim Kibler: All I can say is God Bless you for what you do for our passion. I have several flintlocks all custom or semi-custom but the rifle you built for me is always going to by my families heirloom piece. Looking forward to seeing the "Woods Runner" rifle.
Mike McGuire
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Look here to see the woodsrunner rifle.
https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=49261.0 (https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=49261.0)
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When you design the new "woodsrunner" rifle how about a little shorter LOP. That is the reason I haven't bought one of your kits.
Go over to Cosby's house and run it through the band saw. He'd probably even help. :P
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Dad gumit. I was counting on a new Hawkins rifle from Kibler..... >:(
Don’t worry Mike. After the two projects mentioned, a Hawkins is next!
That's fantastic!!! Treasure Island was always a favorite! ;)
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Thanks for the good news about a Hawken, Jim. Put me first on the list when they are ready!!
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Is this the Woodsrunner?
(https://i.ibb.co/JFfTRYc/8065-CCE0-8-D78-49-E2-A897-385-D4-D1-C00-C1.png) (https://ibb.co/h1PNRGg)
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I guess I will stir up all the purists but here goes, Jim do you think you will offer the SMR in percussion?
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Look here to see the woodsrunner rifle.
https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=49261.0 (https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=49261.0)
The Woodsrunner in this link may have broad appeal, the architecture looks almost like the blending of Fowler style buttstock with rifle features such as check rest and patchbox, with noticeably short length of pull?
I would like to learn more, particularly what caliber it is chambered in or what Jim will offer it in?
I would think this would serve well for younger shooters, and smaller builds, it may also appeal to those that need to hunt with heavy winter clothing or folks that spend a good portion of time walking/stalking game.
It might make an interesting buck and ball gun? but that is a diffent style barrel and I have no idea if it would be appropriate?
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Percussion SMR? By all means!!!!
J.B.
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Dan, I agree with you and Dave - Jim's kits are attracting folks who otherwise wouldn't even think of building a longrifle, and find that custom makers are fairly high priced.
Kibler provides a "personalized" firearm that most any builder will be proud of. AND - he leaves plenty of room for personalization, should a customer lean in that direction. Heck, he even has "How To Do It" videos, detailing every step in the process.
And the result is a great draw for MORE people to join our muzzle-stuffer crowd!
The type of muzzle loading firearms that we use (and make) is really a far cry from the 409 primer group. No fiberglass, no "in-line" actions. Just wood and steel and brass, as they have been made for over 250 years, and really had a big footprint in our history.
The modern muzzle loader was developed to make something available for those who have no idea as to the historical significance of the traditional hand made guns.I was talking recently to a police officer who has a modern type that apparently breaks open like a shotgun and he was complaining about some type of powder that plugged up the flash channel from the primer.I had and have no idea as to what this thing is but disavow any interest in it.The work of the Kibler's has been a major contribution to the survival of the traditional muzzle loading rifle and from what I have personally seen,they offer a major value for very little money.They chose THIS as a source of income and should be commended as well as supported in this unusual endeavour,
Bob Roller
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It appears from his comment that Mr Kibler is NOT too concerned with "older, conservative, change resistant" people !!! THAT is INTERESTING!!!!
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Look here to see the woodsrunner rifle.
https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=49261.0 (https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=49261.0)
The Woodsrunner in this link may have broad appeal, the architecture looks almost like the blending of Fowler style buttstock with rifle features such as check rest and patchbox, with noticeably short length of pull?
I would like to learn more, particularly what caliber it is chambered in or what Jim will offer it in?
I would think this would serve well for younger shooters, and smaller builds, it may also appeal to those that need to hunt with heavy winter clothing or folks that spend a good portion of time walking/stalking game.
It might make an interesting buck and ball gun? but that is a diffent style barrel and I have no idea if it would be appropriate?
I'd talk to kibler as far as the details of his new kit, nobody knows those answers but him.I have handled both the woods runner and the feather rifle. Neither one was noticibly short pulled and kibler will most likely make the kit what ever pull he desires depending on what he thinks will be best for sales.
It's probably just me but I have always found the architecture on these guns unattractive. They look like the guy who built them was a little confused as to what the end result should be.
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It appears from his comment that Mr Kibler is NOT too concerned with "older, conservative, change resistant" people !!! THAT is INTERESTING!!!!
I can tell you that I am Older AND Conservative.....yet I am happy to report I experienced ZERO difficulty in placing an order for a Kibler SMR, in fact Lorie, who took my phone order at Kiblers longrifles made it a Great experience, and has answered all my questions beautifully.
It has been said that you can lead (some) old horse's to fresh water, but you can not keep him from try to pee in it. That is the activity that causes me to shake my head.
I have Never twisted Anyone's arm to purchase a Kibler, my posts express my own enthusiasm for getting to use the products for my personal enjoyment,......yet the grumpy horse with the propencity to pee eventually shows up.
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You also can take into account, that if you’re starting out with nothing, by the time you buy a quality stock blank, barrel, lock, triggers, and all the associated hardware, you will be at about the $800 mark today.
So you’re paying about $3-400 for Kiblers labor to bring his product to market. Quite a bargain today.
I understand those who have no interest in “store bought” rifles and prefer to roll their own. I’m getting close to starting my first plank build because of the challenge and it’s something I want to accomplish. But I got that itch by initially putting a Kibler together. And if Jim puts out a Hawken, he can take my money.
Bob
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It appears from his comment that Mr Kibler is NOT too concerned with "older, conservative, change resistant" people !!! THAT is INTERESTING!!!!
I can tell you that I am Older AND Conservative.....yet I had No difficulty in placing an order for a Kibler SMR, in fact Lorie, who took my phone order at Kiblers longrifles made it a Great experience, and has answered all my questions beautifully.
It has been said that you can lead (some) old horse's to fresh water, but you can not keep him from try to pee in it. That is the activity that causes me to shake my head.
I have Never twisted Anyone's arm to purchase a Kibler, my posts express my own enthusiasm for getting to use the products for my personal enjoyment,......yet the grumpy horse with the propencity to pee eventually shows up.
I am in my 95th winter and, I have NO plans of buying ANY more firearm of ANY kind! I have more than I can use now. I personally don`t care who builds what or why! I have seen a lot of "change" in my life some for the better , some for the worse! My only point in pointing out what Mr Kibler said was to highlight his comment on this segment of the market! Having operated my medical practice for 60 years , I salute those who choose to operate their own business! The only muzzleloading rifles that I own are originals that I bought in the 50s and 60s . I have one by a Tennessee maker named Jacob Young that I was going to have my daughter photograph to post here. It is a very beautiful rifle that is as finely made as any I have seen! I am rambling but, with the way things are now I am always put off by people making comments about "old , conservatives" I think they are referring to me!
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Cumberland Hunter, congrats! You’re raising the bar for an active, good old age. Keep it rolling!
All, let’s remembering we are a small community and are better off sticking together. Once upon a time, there were pioneers named Bill Large and Bud Siler. You may have your own list of “game-changers”. I’m not sure if Golden Age Arms or Pecatonica or who were the first to offer pre-carved stocks inlet for barrels. But there have been and will be game-changers in every generation. Someday the game-changers of today will be the ones doing it the old way. Seems impossible now, but the things done now seemed impossible back then. Let’s enjoy the ride and not throw anybody who is contributing off or under the bus.
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Well said Rich. Was having those same thoughts. :) 8)
Dave
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That's okay guys, I don't take any offense at all. I think Rich has described this quite well. I'm not against being conservative, traditional etc, but if people are too much this way, they can easily be left behind. What's the quote about "if find change difficult, try irrelevance". This isn't directed at any individuals, but rather the approach to this culture we love as a whole. There is great opportunity for organizations and business, but if your approach never changes, it's hard to realize these.
On a personal level, I'm pretty conservative. Just ask Katherine! This is one area where she has influenced me a great deal. Without her, I don't think we would have ever started this business.
In regards to the "Woodsrunner" project, I think it's going to have great, mass appeal. I've tamed the stock architecture a tad, but still retains what I feel is wonderful, sleek stocking that handles and points incredibly well. The rifle will weigh between 7.5 - 8 lbs depending on caliber. It will be available in .45, .50 and .54 calibers. The barrel will be 39.75" long. The pull will be between 13 3/8" and 13 1/2". The original pull was likely closer to 13 1/4". I'll maybe do a short video introducing this rifle soon.
I'll look through this thread again soon to see if I've missed any questions, but better get back to work soon.
All the best,
Jim
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That's okay guys, I don't take any offense at all. I think Rich has described this quite well. I'm not against being conservative, traditional etc, but if people are too much this way, they can easily be left behind. What's the quote about "if find change difficult, try irrelevance". This isn't directed at any individuals, but rather the approach to this culture we love as a whole. There is great opportunity for organizations and business, but if your approach never changes, it's hard to realize these.
On a personal level, I'm pretty conservative. Just ask Katherine! This is one area where she has influenced me a great deal. Without her, I don't think we would have ever started this business.
In regards to the "Woodsrunner" project, I think it's going to have great, mass appeal. I've tamed the stock architecture a tad, but still retains what I feel is wonderful, sleek stocking that handles and points incredibly well. The rifle will weigh between 7.5 - 8 lbs depending on caliber. It will be available in .45, .50 and .54 calibers. The barrel will be 39.75" long. The pull will be between 13 3/8" and 13 1/2". The original pull was likely closer to 13 1/4". I'll maybe do a short video introducing this rifle soon.
I'll look through this thread again soon to see if I've missed any questions, but better get back to work soon.
All the best,
Jim
Based on this information, I will take one in .45 caliber. How soon can I place my order?
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It appears from his comment that Mr Kibler is NOT too concerned with "older, conservative, change resistant" people !!! THAT is INTERESTING!!!!
I can tell you that I am Older AND Conservative.....yet I had No difficulty in placing an order for a Kibler SMR, in fact Lorie, who took my phone order at Kiblers longrifles made it a Great experience, and has answered all my questions beautifully.
It has been said that you can lead (some) old horse's to fresh water, but you can not keep him from try to pee in it. That is the activity that causes me to shake my head.
I have Never twisted Anyone's arm to purchase a Kibler, my posts express my own enthusiasm for getting to use the products for my personal enjoyment,......yet the grumpy horse with the propencity to pee eventually shows up.
I am in my 95th winter and, I have NO plans of buying ANY more firearm of ANY kind! I have more than I can use now. I personally don`t care who builds what or why! I have seen a lot of "change" in my life some for the better , some for the worse! My only point in pointing out what Mr Kibler said was to highlight his comment on this segment of the market! Having operated my medical practice for 60 years , I salute those who choose to operate their own business! The only muzzleloading rifles that I own are originals that I bought in the 50s and 60s . I have one by a Tennessee maker named Jacob Young that I was going to have my daughter photograph to post here. It is a very beautiful rifle that is as finely made as any I have seen! I am rambling but, with the way things are now I am always put off by people making comments about "old , conservatives" I think they are referring to me!
I would live to know more about your Jacob Young Rifle. I have sent you a message.
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It appears from his comment that Mr Kibler is NOT too concerned with "older, conservative, change resistant" people !!! THAT is INTERESTING!!!!
I can tell you that I am Older AND Conservative.....yet I had No difficulty in placing an order for a Kibler SMR, in fact Lorie, who took my phone order at Kiblers longrifles made it a Great experience, and has answered all my questions beautifully.
It has been said that you can lead (some) old horse's to fresh water, but you can not keep him from try to pee in it. That is the activity that causes me to shake my head.
I have Never twisted Anyone's arm to purchase a Kibler, my posts express my own enthusiasm for getting to use the products for my personal enjoyment,......yet the grumpy horse with the propencity to pee eventually shows up.
I am in my 95th winter and, I have NO plans of buying ANY more firearm of ANY kind! I have more than I can use now. I personally don`t care who builds what or why! I have seen a lot of "change" in my life some for the better , some for the worse! My only point in pointing out what Mr Kibler said was to highlight his comment on this segment of the market! Having operated my medical practice for 60 years , I salute those who choose to operate their own business! The only muzzleloading rifles that I own are originals that I bought in the 50s and 60s . I have one by a Tennessee maker named Jacob Young that I was going to have my daughter photograph to post here. It is a very beautiful rifle that is as finely made as any I have seen! I am rambling but, with the way things are now I am always put off by people making comments about "old , conservatives" I think they are referring to me!
I would live to know more about your Jacob Young Rifle. I have sent you a message.
I’m sure many of us would love to see pictures of your Jacob Young rifle.
Many thanks,
Jeff
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I guess Jim is ignoring my percussion SMR question, I guess if it was going to happen it would have by now.
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I guess Jim is ignoring my percussion SMR question, I guess if it was going to happen it would have by now.
I’m sorry! I didn’t mean to overlook your question. Yes, percussion will be offered. I’m not exactly sure when. We have been doing a little experimenting with percussion on our Colonial rifle recently.
Thanks!
Jim
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A rifle that will fit. I'll take a .54.
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I guess Jim is ignoring my percussion SMR question, I guess if it was going to happen it would have by now.
I’m sorry! I didn’t mean to overlook your question. Yes, percussion will be offered. I’m not exactly sure when. We have been doing a little experimenting with percussion on our Colonial rifle recently.
Thanks!
Jim
Great news, that’s what I’ve been waiting for!
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A rifle that will fit. I'll take a .54.
This has been my previous issue with the kits also. My arms are too short lol.
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That's okay guys, I don't take any offense at all. I think Rich has described this quite well. I'm not against being conservative, traditional etc, but if people are too much this way, they can easily be left behind. What's the quote about "if find change difficult, try irrelevance". This isn't directed at any individuals, but rather the approach to this culture we love as a whole. There is great opportunity for organizations and business, but if your approach never changes, it's hard to realize these.
On a personal level, I'm pretty conservative. Just ask Katherine! This is one area where she has influenced me a great deal. Without her, I don't think we would have ever started this business.
In regards to the "Woodsrunner" project, I think it's going to have great, mass appeal. I've tamed the stock architecture a tad, but still retains what I feel is wonderful, sleek stocking that handles and points incredibly well. The rifle will weigh between 7.5 - 8 lbs depending on caliber. It will be available in .45, .50 and .54 calibers. The barrel will be 39.75" long. The pull will be between 13 3/8" and 13 1/2". The original pull was likely closer to 13 1/4". I'll maybe do a short video introducing this rifle soon.
I'll look through this thread again soon to see if I've missed any questions, but better get back to work soon.
All the best,
Jim
Thank you for this post Jim. I would enjoy watching a "short Woodsrunner introduction video" Very much. I realise there may not be much to show on a 25% complete Fowler project, but ANY tidbits on the Fowler you could slip in the Woodsrunner Video would be Icing on the cake! :)
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I don't recall ever seeing it asked...so I will.
Any thoughts on a Lehigh down the pike? If we're dreaming, a late Berks (Haga style gun) would be cooler than cool, but Berks guns never get the love. lol
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I have one by a Tennessee maker named Jacob Young that I was going to have my daughter photograph to post here. It is a very beautiful rifle,,,,,
I'd certainly enjoy seeing some pictures of your Jacob Young rifle!
John
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I'll bet....
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In my opinion having a Kibler rifle option when starting out is a real asset. I have never built one but considered getting one when I started building rifles again a few years ago. One of the reason I didn't had nothing to do with what he produces or its quality rather what I was trying to get out of building a rifle. I wanted to build something that I had to learn skills and techniques to finish the project not just put parts together. So what I was getting out of the process was a learning experience with the result of a finished rifle. I started building from parts sets but recently have been assembling components and stock blanks to build a specific rifle. I built my first rifle in the late 70's and didn't build another until 2019. If Kibler was an option back then I would have started with one.
I may yet try building one maybe take one of Brook's classes! I will be interested in seeing his version of the Hawken looks like. I am in business too and although what I do has nothing to do with what Jim does, I know what it takes to run a small business. I commend Jim Kibler on what he offers and how he is expanding his offerings. We are lucky as a community of have people like him.
Rob
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Dan, I agree with you and Dave - Jim's kits are attracting folks who otherwise wouldn't even think of building a longrifle, and find that custom makers are fairly high priced.
Kibler provides a "personalized" firearm that most any builder will be proud of. AND - he leaves plenty of room for personalization, should a customer lean in that direction. Heck, he even has "How To Do It" videos, detailing every step in the process.
And the result is a great draw for MORE people to join our muzzle-stuffer crowd!
The type of muzzle loading firearms that we use (and make) is really a far cry from the 409 primer group. No fiberglass, no "in-line" actions. Just wood and steel and brass, as they have been made for over 250 years, and really had a big footprint in our history.
The modern muzzle loader was developed to make something available for those who have no idea as to the historical significance of the traditional hand made guns.I was talking recently to a police officer who has a modern type that apparently breaks open like a shotgun and he was complaining about some type of powder that plugged up the flash channel from the primer.I had and have no idea as to what this thing is but disavow any interest in it.The work of the Kibler's has been a major contribution to the survival of the traditional muzzle loading rifle and from what I have personally seen,they offer a major value for very little money.They chose THIS as a source of income and should be commended as well as supported in this unusual endeavour,
Bob Roller
The Montana legislature instituted a ML season (not the Fish, Wildlife and Parks) and the modern MLs are specifically banned. Now how much pressure will be put on lawmakers by the makers of these things is unknown but for now we have a pretty good set of rules to keep the arms used traditional.
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Ok, as an intermittent lurker on this forum, I always learn interesting things. However, I'll admit my ignorance and that I'm missing something large!. Would someone give me a quick overview of the history of the Woodsrunner rifle? What is it's significance and origins? Which time period and school? I don't see anything in Kindig and Google produced a few pics but not any real background.
I'm not a builder, but wish I were. I'm very close to ordering that first Kibler kit and wondering about the new option of course.
Thanks
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why another rifle before the fowler?? i need you fowler Jim. i am getting older not younger! i need it now :)
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I like the idea of a Woodsrunner rifle. Something different and not common. If he makes it, I'll buy one.
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After reading all this. One thing is for certain. Mr. Jim DOESN'T let the grass grow underneath his feet..!
It is impressive that Jim continues to improve his product's.
Now Jim if you could work on that scraped finish look ...
Oldtravler
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Ok, as an intermittent lurker on this forum, I always learn interesting things. However, I'll admit my ignorance and that I'm missing something large!. Would someone give me a quick overview of the history of the Woodsrunner rifle? What is it's significance and origins? Which time period and school? I don't see anything in Kindig and Google produced a few pics but not any real background.
I'm not a builder, but wish I were. I'm very close to ordering that first Kibler kit and wondering about the new option of course.
Thanks
I have been looking for similar information....so far all I have been able to find is the "Woodsrunner" is attributed to the "valley of Virginia" region.
But I also recently learned the "Woodsrunner" is not new to Jim Kibler, he was featured in the Jan/Feb issue of Muzzleloader magazine in 2014, a several page full color article showcase his custom gunmaker skills.
Jim's version of the Woodsrunner is shown in the article, when Jim says he "tamed" the architecture somewhat...."tamed" = improved dramatically IMHO!
I doubt I have the necessary permission to post images from the Muzzleloader Magazine here, but if you Google the magazine and issue date, you should be able to pull it up.
There was a Fine English Fowler that was made my Jim in the article as well, it has the finest architecture I have seen in a Fowler! It has the most tasteful wire inlays I have ever seen, and trimmed in Stirling silver. If Jim could offer us a base version of this Fowler, just feature the architecture but offer more "workman grade" furniture would be amazing, I can not find a "fine english Fowler" kit Anywhere. If it where to be offered with German Silver furniture or Stirling Silver furniture upgrades? All the better!
I have also been thinking about what Jim told us of the new 5 axis machine being capable of doing decorative carving on his stocks....I am wondering out loud if the machine might also be able to produce cuts that could allow the customer to do wire inlay as an optional upgrade? If we are dreaming maybe "Level 1" the 5 axis just draws a very precise pattern on the stock. "Level 2" upgrade the 5 axis actually "stabs in" the cut and the customer can install the wire. For this to happen the 5 axis machine would need the capability of the spindle to be "indexed". A very rigid cutter made and only the very tip thinned down to knife edge thickness. If it where a straight chisel point maybe only .040 to .062 long the "indexing spindle" could "stab in" pretty sharp curves. I do not know if the market is ready for this, but I think the technology in CNC equipment currently exists to make it happen.
If just the base "Fine English Fowler" where to happen, I would be among the first in line to open my wallet.
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I have been looking for similar information....so far all I have been able to find is the "Woodsrunner" is attributed to the "valley of Virginia" region.
But I also recently learned the "Woodsrunner" is not new to Jim Kibler, he was featured in the Jan/Feb issue of Muzzleloader magazine in 2014, a several page full color article showcase his custom gunmaker skills.
Jim's version of the Woodsrunner is shown in the article, when Jim says he "tamed" the architecture somewhat...."tamed" = improved dramatically IMHO!
I doubt I have the necessary permission to post images from the Muzzleloader Magazine here, but if you Google the magazine and issue date, you should be able to pull it up.
Thanks fo the suggestion. I have many years worth of Muzzleloader Magazines going back to the 80s (with a few gaps) and will have to find that one. I'm curious about the history and time period of the Woodsrunner. The Kibler Colonial is 1760s/1770s and the SMR 1840s, which leaves a big hole in the middle time period-wise. I would have expected a Golden Age rifle next. I'm guessing the Woodsrunner fits in there somewhere?
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I always thought that Jim Chambers made a pretty nice fowler kit.
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The Chamber's Penn. Fowler is a wonderful pelter - for balls as well.
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I always thought that Jim Chambers made a pretty nice fowler kit.
I agree, I have been advised by senior members that the Chambers "officers fusil" would make the best "grouse gun" of all the Chambers offerings, yet the same members caution not to go smaller than 16 gage for a "good shooting" upland bird gun with 12 and 10 gage being desirable. The Officers Fusil is only offered in 20 gage.
I can see the draw for 20 gage as a nice "all purpose" gun, (great for round ball) but it's not quite a "surgeons scalpel" for grouse. If the specs are not favourable on the new Kibler fowler, I will likely order the Chambers Officers Fusil to get me by for now.
Jim has expressed interest in providing "nice thin barrels" he has shown he can profile awesome swamped barrels( in house) for his other kits....I am curious if he will profile the Fowler barrels "in house" as well, possibly giving us better barrel profiles than are currently offered? Hopefully something to compete or compare favorable to the Griffin "D" profile that weighs only 3 lb in 16 gage! ;D
The Griffin "D" profile has a stout breech that very Rapid tapers to a very thin profile giving a weight to the rear bias and a light and lively "fast" muzzle. I have read that grouse often only give 1 to 1.25 seconds shot opportunity average in the woods....sometimes a little more, sometimes even less, but the point is anything you can do to your Fowler to make it come on target rapidly is pretty huge. I can see where guys that do not target grouse.... this is no big deal. After hunting grouse all season then going on a pheasant hunt, it seems like a Boeing 747 getting off the ground with ages of time to shoot in comparison to a grouse.
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I've shot a lot of upland birds with a 20 cylinder bore. Plenty of gun. Shot some wood ducks with it also. You're not limited by a shell, load it with enough powder and shot to get the job done.
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When after geese, or ducks or large game [ round ball ] my 10 bore N E fowling gun from Chambers gets the nod. Here in my woods, a light , fast handling 20 bore is the ticket for partridge.
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I’m guessing most flintlock fowlers today are round ball guns or used for turkey. Sure wish I’d see more small game around here. Any, actually. I’m finishing a 20 ga trade gun and have a .69 New England fowler of French styling. That should cover it especially if I get the .69 jug choked.
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I doubt whether Kibler's 5-axis machines could do the work for silver wire inlay.
You see, for those who haven't tried it, there is NO wood removed in the process. Various shaped chisels are pushed into the wood in the design selected, then the silver ribbon is pushed into the slot. To keep it in there, the design area is then wetted, causing the little slit to swell up tight around the ribbon. It is "locked-in" by drawing the silver ribbon between two files, causing minute grooves to be formed.
Jim's machines would, no doubt, be capable of making intricate patterns, but they operate by removing wood, which would negate the swelling-up part. Perhaps super glue could hold the ribbon in the groove?
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Craig every CBC machine I have been around had a spray head for removing chips from the cutting tool. That part could be an air powered or by liquid.
Now getting the wire later in properly might be a trick. But I'm quite sure Jim will come up with something. If he hasn't already.
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I went to a small art center years ago (when I shot a TC) that was having an "Arms Through the Ages" show, this was my first contact with historically correct rifles and pistols. One exhibiter had a Jacob Young rifle, not just any rifle but one of the top of the line rifles that had been made for a DR in Nashville.
Not having ever seen one I assumed rifles made 200 years ago must be crude because they were hand made with simple tools, boy was I wrong. The exhibitor was a fine man, once he saw my interest let me hold, shoulder and examine this rifle, the workmanship was as close to perfect as could be. Seeing this fine rifle up close played a part in my transitioning from factory made guns to making my own rifles and fowlers.
Perhaps the man who was so kind to me and generous with his time is reading this, I hope so, it was long ago and I don't remember his name.
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I don't recall ever seeing it asked...so I will.
Any thoughts on a Lehigh down the pike? If we're dreaming, a late Berks (Haga style gun) would be cooler than cool, but Berks guns never get the love. lol
Yes, a Lehigh is a definite. This style will work well for incised carving.
Jim
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Ok, as an intermittent lurker on this forum, I always learn interesting things. However, I'll admit my ignorance and that I'm missing something large!. Would someone give me a quick overview of the history of the Woodsrunner rifle? What is it's significance and origins? Which time period and school? I don't see anything in Kindig and Google produced a few pics but not any real background.
I'm not a builder, but wish I were. I'm very close to ordering that first Kibler kit and wondering about the new option of course.
Thanks
I believe the term "Woodsrunner" was coined by Earl Lanning. I'm pretty sure he owned this rifle for a number of years. As far as where and when it was built, as far as I know there are no definitive answers. I know Wallace believes strongly that it was a valley of Virginia rifle. It has been a LONG time since I looked at his information regarding this attribution / belief, so I had better refresh myself before I comment. There is a Muzzleblast article where he discusses this rifle extensively. Others have suggested this may be a Berks county rifle. I believe Wallace puts the rifle from the 1760's, but some others have suggested it might be into the 1770's.
To the rifle itself... I find it the be pretty amazing. The most notable feature is the strong trade gun / fowling piece influence. The butstock profile screams this to me. The high breech, the heavy taper in both the wrist and the forestock, the diminutive cheekpiece, and even the English lock add to this appearance. It has a very wide (approximately 2.125") buttplate and the buttstock has an "inflated" appearance. The barrel is pretty heavily "swamped" which adds to the fowling piece feeling. The box cavity is unique in that it is just rounded in cross section and doesn't have any conventional dovetails to retain the box lid. As the name suggests, the rifle handles amazingly well and shoulders great. It would be a real pleasure to hunt with.
I have built a "bench copy" of this original rifle; however, the kit will not be an exact copy of the original. As mentioned, I've modified the architecture slightly. It would be hard to explain here, but I think it will be a little more appealing to the typical consumers. My barrel will be just under 40" long and be downsized a touch. The buttplate will be slightly narrower as well. You could say my version might be a little later than the original being discussed. These changes were made to lighten the rifle and make it even better handling as weight is a huge concern to many today. I expect my version to weigh 7.5 - 8 pounds.
As mentioned, I'll try to show some pictures or a video of the model we've created for this rifle.
All the best,
Jim
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why another rifle before the fowler?? i need you fowler Jim. i am getting older not younger! i need it now :)
This rifle hasn't taken as much to get developed as the fowler will. It's kind of hard to go into all the details, but the bottom line is that this has been easier and quicker to get to market. Also there seems to be a big demand for a light, shorter barreled, larger caliber rifle.
Thanks,
Jim
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Ok, as an intermittent lurker on this forum, I always learn interesting things. However, I'll admit my ignorance and that I'm missing something large!. Would someone give me a quick overview of the history of the Woodsrunner rifle? What is it's significance and origins? Which time period and school? I don't see anything in Kindig and Google produced a few pics but not any real background.
I'm not a builder, but wish I were. I'm very close to ordering that first Kibler kit and wondering about the new option of course.
Thanks
I have been looking for similar information....so far all I have been able to find is the "Woodsrunner" is attributed to the "valley of Virginia" region.
But I also recently learned the "Woodsrunner" is not new to Jim Kibler, he was featured in the Jan/Feb issue of Muzzleloader magazine in 2014, a several page full color article showcase his custom gunmaker skills.
Jim's version of the Woodsrunner is shown in the article, when Jim says he "tamed" the architecture somewhat...."tamed" = improved dramatically IMHO!
I doubt I have the necessary permission to post images from the Muzzleloader Magazine here, but if you Google the magazine and issue date, you should be able to pull it up.
There was a Fine English Fowler that was made my Jim in the article as well, it has the finest architecture I have seen in a Fowler! It has the most tasteful wire inlays I have ever seen, and trimmed in Stirling silver. If Jim could offer us a base version of this Fowler, just feature the architecture but offer more "workman grade" furniture would be amazing, I can not find a "fine english Fowler" kit Anywhere. If it where to be offered with German Silver furniture or Stirling Silver furniture upgrades? All the better!
I have also been thinking about what Jim told us of the new 5 axis machine being capable of doing decorative carving on his stocks....I am wondering out loud if the machine might also be able to produce cuts that could allow the customer to do wire inlay as an optional upgrade? If we are dreaming maybe "Level 1" the 5 axis just draws a very precise pattern on the stock. "Level 2" upgrade the 5 axis actually "stabs in" the cut and the customer can install the wire. For this to happen the 5 axis machine would need the capability of the spindle to be "indexed". A very rigid cutter made and only the very tip thinned down to knife edge thickness. If it where a straight chisel point maybe only .040 to .062 long the "indexing spindle" could "stab in" pretty sharp curves. I do not know if the market is ready for this, but I think the technology in CNC equipment currently exists to make it happen.
If just the base "Fine English Fowler" where to happen, I would be among the first in line to open my wallet.
I've thought about the same thing regarding wire inlay work. Like you said, the groove could be cut with a small chisel plunged into the stock with the aid of the 5 axis motion and spindle orientation. Programing would be problamatic, however. There are also other difficulties... With good wire inlay, all the grooves are not cut at the same time. It's typical to cut a groove, install the wire and then cut more grooves. Installing the wire provides support for subsequent cuts and helps prevent break out. Also as the wood is just compressed, I think it would swell shut if there was any passing of time before wire was installed. You never know, though....
Thanks,
Jim
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As to a fowling piece / trade gun, one of our goals is to make a kit that is highly representative of original work. If you have studied and handled very many original guns you will likely come to the conclusion that most if not all currently offered today miss the mark in a number of areas. A couple of the most glaring is the forestock (web) thickness and the barrel weight. Eric Von Ashwege has been helping me with this project and we have three original high end trade guns to guide the development process. Though not as far along as the rifle discussed, it's coming along well.
Thanks again for all the encouragement and kind words.
A final note... We have taken a handful of orders for the "Woodsrunner" rifle kit, so you can do this if you would like, but we won't take any deposit and you have to commit to not hounding me if it isn't done as soon as you think it should be ;)
Thanks,
Jim
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why another rifle before the fowler?? i need you fowler Jim. i am getting older not younger! i need it now :)
This rifle hasn't taken as much to get developed as the fowler will. It's kind of hard to go into all the details, but the bottom line is that this has been easier and quicker to get to market. Also there seems to be a big demand for a light, shorter barreled, larger caliber rifle.
Thanks,
Jim
Absolutely Jim, as well as a shorter length of pull. I am definitely buying one in 45 caliber and either get a 54 caliber barrel or just buy a second one in 54.
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Jim,
While we are throwing out our wish lists I've long thought that the option of steel furniture for your Colonial rifle would pair well with a walnut stock in making a nice “Woodbury School” rifle.
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I believe the term "Woodsrunner" was coined by Earl Lanning. I'm pretty sure he owned this rifle for a number of years. As far as where and when it was built, as far as I know there are no definitive answers. I know Wallace believes strongly that it was a valley of Virginia rifle. It has been a LONG time since I looked at his information regarding this attribution / belief, so I had better refresh myself before I comment. There is a Muzzleblast article where he discusses this rifle extensively. Others have suggested this may be a Berks county rifle. I believe Wallace puts the rifle from the 1760's, but some others have suggested it might be into the 1770's.
To the rifle itself... I find it the be pretty amazing. The most notable feature is the strong trade gun / fowling piece influence. The butstock profile screams this to me. The high breech, the heavy taper in both the wrist and the forestock, the diminutive cheekpiece, and even the English lock add to this appearance. It has a very wide (approximately 2.125") buttplate and the buttstock has an "inflated" appearance. The barrel is pretty heavily "swamped" which adds to the fowling piece feeling. The box cavity is unique in that it is just rounded in cross section and doesn't have any conventional dovetails to retain the box lid. As the name suggests, the rifle handles amazingly well and shoulders great. It would be a real pleasure to hunt with.
I have built a "bench copy" of this original rifle; however, the kit will not be an exact copy of the original. As mentioned, I've modified the architecture slightly. It would be hard to explain here, but I think it will be a little more appealing to the typical consumers. My barrel will be just under 40" long and be downsized a touch. The buttplate will be slightly narrower as well. You could say my version might be a little later than the original being discussed. These changes were made to lighten the rifle and make it even better handling as weight is a huge concern to many today. I expect my version to weigh 7.5 - 8 pounds.
As mentioned, I'll try to show some pictures or a video of the model we've created for this rifle.
All the best,
Jim
Jim,
Thanks so much for your insights into both the original Woodsrunner and your upcoming new kit. You are extremely helpful!
Being less than an hour away, my only wish is that there was a showroom where finished rifles could be handled to see how they feel and handle before ordering. But, as you addressed in a video, I understand what a distraction and time suck that would be. It's impressive to watch your continuing industry and innovations.
Best wishes,
Miles
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The Woodsrunner sounds great, and a Lehigh will be pretty cool! Looking forward to seeing what comes out!
I'd never heard the possibility the Woodsrunner was from Berks....now I gotta start doing some digging on that rifle. I realize it's all a big question mark, but Berks stuff gets my attention quick. Being born, raised, and living in Berks County has a lot to do with that.
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I have been looking for similar information....so far all I have been able to find is the "Woodsrunner" is attributed to the "valley of Virginia" region.
But I also recently learned the "Woodsrunner" is not new to Jim Kibler, he was featured in the Jan/Feb issue of Muzzleloader magazine in 2014, a several page full color article showcase his custom gunmaker skills.
Jim's version of the Woodsrunner is shown in the article, when Jim says he "tamed" the architecture somewhat...."tamed" = improved dramatically IMHO!
I doubt I have the necessary permission to post images from the Muzzleloader Magazine here, but if you Google the magazine and issue date, you should be able to pull it up.
The article is linked on Jim's website:
http://www.americanhistoricservices.com/uploads/1/0/3/4/10348480/hankla_kibler_jf14_reduced.pdf
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Wow!.... The information Mr. Kibler shared with us in this thread today is about as big as any before, I have all ready seen this thread referenced by those who write or make videos about "what's new in muzzleloading" elsewhere on the web.
I feel proud to have supported Kibler Longrifle's in my own small way by my current standing "payed" SMR kit order, and look forward to being a "repeat offender" ;) by ordering one of the "new" kits in 2022 if given the opportunity.
This feels like an exciting time to be in the muzzloading sport to me!
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I’ve reread these posts but can some kind soul clarify for me please...
The Woodsrunner project is a rifled barrel flintlock? Correct?
The Fowling piece/ trade gun that will follow, be later, is this a smooth bore design?
Thank you guys 😁
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"It's probably just me but I have always found the architecture on these guns unattractive. They look like the guy who built them was a little confused as to what the end result should be."
Hi,
Yeah, me too Mike, and they did not know how to pull off either the fowlers or rifles. However, I have faith that Jim will edit out the awkward idiosyncracies and produce a really nice looking version.
dave
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I’ve reread these posts but can some kind soul clarify for me please...
The Woodsrunner project is a rifled barrel flintlock? Correct?
The Fowling piece/ trade gun that will follow, be later, is this a smooth bore design?
Thank you guys 😁
Correct on both.
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Thank you Sir! :)
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As to a fowling piece / trade gun, one of our goals is to make a kit that is highly representative of original work. If you have studied and handled very many original guns you will likely come to the conclusion that most if not all currently offered today miss the mark in a number of areas. A couple of the most glaring is the forestock (web) thickness and the barrel weight. Eric Von Ashwege has been helping me with this project and we have three original high end trade guns to guide the development process. Though not as far along as the rifle discussed, it's coming along well.
Thanks again for all the encouragement and kind words.
A final note... We have taken a handful of orders for the "Woodsrunner" rifle kit, so you can do this if you would like, but we won't take any deposit and you have to commit to not hounding me if it isn't done as soon as you think it should be ;)
Thanks,
Jim
This post by Mr. Kibler has renewed my hopes that the new Fowler kit will be highly desirable, at least by me. In one of the videos (or I read somewhere) that he suggested the kit may be offered in both 20 gage And 16 gage, I am hopeful that this proves to be true as well!
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Oh yeah - Kibler kit in 16 bore - THAT's what I need/want.
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Oh yeah - Kibler kit in 16 bore - THAT's what I need/want.
+1....Yeah, me to...bigtime! :)
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Oh yeah - Kibler kit in 16 bore - THAT's what I need/want.
+1....Yeah, me to...bigtime! :)
+2 Oh Yeah!!!!
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Oh yeah - Kibler kit in 16 bore - THAT's what I need/want.
+1....Yeah, me to...bigtime! :)
+2 Oh Yeah!!!!
Of course we will not know for sure if 16 gage will be offered until Mr. Kibler gives us a more final information drop....however, if 16 gage "does" happen, perhaps it may become fondly known in the years to come as: "The Kibler Sweet Sixteen"
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LOL - couldn't be better named.
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Woodsrunner
Any pictures available?
Thank you
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I'll wait for Jim's 10-bore.
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Woodsrunner
Any pictures available?
Thank you
There are some pictures of the original on page two of this thread. As mentioned my version is slightly modified. I'll try to get something together introducing this new kit offering before too long.
Thanks,
Jim
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Great info on having a hawken available down the pike
Currently have the Colonial in .50, solid and heavy
(https://i.ibb.co/P9p2nLG/IMG-0768.jpg) (https://ibb.co/LJwTWFd)
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Nice looking rifle. I like your finish!
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Nice looking rifle. I like your finish!
Thanks Jim
What style of Hawken are you planning, so I can get ready?
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With Northstar West having gone out of business, a typical NW trade gun would be a wonderful addition. Just saying.
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If Jim’s Woodsrunner Rifle is even similar to the one he built years ago, he’ll sell hundreds of them.
(https://i.ibb.co/Gs27h90/FFA21-B3-E-4230-45-BF-A4-FF-D312-D07-AA695.jpg) (https://ibb.co/5Y8T7k6)
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I agree tomjanemc. I was able to hold the original at the CLA years ago. I love the shape and feel of it in all its wookiness
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If Jim’s Woodsrunner Rifle is even similar to the one he built years ago, he’ll sell hundreds of them.
(https://i.ibb.co/Gs27h90/FFA21-B3-E-4230-45-BF-A4-FF-D312-D07-AA695.jpg) (https://ibb.co/5Y8T7k6)
I am told the original Woodsrunner has warp and twist and not a thing on it is straight including the butt plate.
I know now that "this" one is Jim's bench build copy....maybe he did not copy the "warps" but I feel the butt stock looks crisp and clean architecture...I like it a lot.
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The "feather" rifle is very similiar.
Dennis
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If Jim’s Woodsrunner Rifle is even similar to the one he built years ago, he’ll sell hundreds of them.
(https://i.ibb.co/Gs27h90/FFA21-B3-E-4230-45-BF-A4-FF-D312-D07-AA695.jpg) (https://ibb.co/5Y8T7k6)
Not 100% sure but I believe I remember riding with Jim somewhere to pick up the lock for this rifle after it had been cased. I do remember handling this one at completion. His version will actually be a good choice to fill customer needs IMO and still be highly representative of the original.
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If Jim’s Woodsrunner Rifle is even similar to the one he built years ago, he’ll sell hundreds of them.
(https://i.ibb.co/Gs27h90/FFA21-B3-E-4230-45-BF-A4-FF-D312-D07-AA695.jpg) (https://ibb.co/5Y8T7k6)
If Jim’s Woodsrunner kit looks like this, I will buy two of them. One in 45 for target and also a 54 for hunting.
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Glad to hear about the exciting developments at Kibler's! Is there a timeframe on making left hand models of your current offerings? Thanks,
Eric
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Glad to hear about the exciting developments at Kibler's! Is there a timeframe on making left hand models of your current offerings? Thanks,
Eric
I'm not Jim, but I'll make a prediction. ....Never....
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What Mike said. The market isn't there. Jim K. has enough on his plate with a new longrifle, fowler, and a Hawken somewhere in the pipeline along with day-to-day operations. It is easier for me to shoot a RH rifle.
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Glad to hear about the exciting developments at Kibler's! Is there a timeframe on making left hand models of your current offerings? Thanks,
Eric
I'm not Jim, but I'll make a prediction. ....Never....
Guess that means I'll never get a Kibler ridle. :'(
Best regards
Rolf
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Someday we'll make a left-handed kit, but I can't say when. Someday....
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Glad to hear about the exciting developments at Kibler's! Is there a timeframe on making left hand models of your current offerings? Thanks,
Eric
I'm not Jim, but I'll make a prediction. ....Never....
Guess that means I'll never get a Kibler ridle. :'(
Best regards
Rolf
Maybe I am wrong, but it seems the LH version need is overrated a bit?
My grouse hunting buddy IS left handed and hunts with a RH gun....he Consistently hits more birds than I do!
The safety on a modern (name that shalt not be spoken here) is a bit awkward, but has not slowed him.
A Flintlock Cock does not care a bit what hand is used to draw it back....and half cock is the safety.
The only other concern (I) can think of is the cheek rest....some rifles have a smallish rest and some have none. It seems the guy that wishes a Kibler took longer to build could just rasp off the cheek rest for a more slim look....or leave it on for resale value.
If I have overlooked some ground shaking impediment? Please enlighten me.
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Thats what the blind guy said….
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Maybe Jim could program his computer to not inlet the lock or sideplate, then you could inlet your own left hand lock, make a sideplate and file off the checkpiece.
David
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I wonder if the right hand stock has any cast off which might make it somewhat " off " for a leftie. :-\
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Someday we'll make a left-handed kit, but I can't say when. Someday....
Thanks for the reply. I understand it's a low volume business compared to the righties of the world but I (and many others!) look forward to the day your kits are available for us left handers.
Best,
Eric
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I wonder if the right hand stock has any cast off which might make it somewhat " off " for a leftie. :-\
Zero cast off Per Kibler website specs.
Quote:
Stock has a pull of about 13.75” and a drop of approximately 3 5/8” and no cast off.
As a side note....where LH southern mountain rifles a "thing" in 1820? I am no Historian, just wondering if it is a modern thing or Historically correct for 1820?
Now that I think on it, I do not recall Ever seeing a 200 year old Lefty Flinter....
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Well I guess, since you were talking grouse hunting I was thinking of a smooth bore not an SMR. Does his upcoming smooth bore have cast?
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Well I guess, since you were talking grouse hunting I was thinking of a smooth bore not an SMR. Does his upcoming smooth bore have cast?
I did use my left handed grouse hunting buddy as an example of a Lefty having good results with a RH shotgun, but my post was intended to help the poster(s) that keep asking for Jim's current "rifles" to be made in LH versions.
I myself am left-handed, but also right eye dominance so shooting a "rifle" right-handed is natural for me. Having said that, I am use to solving LH/RH issues.....that is what got me thinking about not seeing any 200 year old Flintlock's with the lock on the left side.
We likely will not know if the Kibler Fowler/trade gun has cast until Jim releases more info....but it would make sense to me that he might build it "straight" as an ambidextrous gun and the folks that just "must" have "cast" could add it in themselves if they know what they are doing, or hire it put in by a Professional.
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It's really not a matter of need. I've shot right handed guns and doubles all my life. It's a want. A desire to have good looking gun properly stocked with the cheekpiece in a useful place and the lock on the side away from my face.
Eric
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I think left-handed firearms were outlawed by George III. You never see one from his period.
I wish it were nothing more than flipping the CNC machine over, but there are a lot of holding fixtures, machine cut directions, etc., that would need to be reversed also.
Pistols are lucky - doesn't matter to them which hand they are held in.
While we are talking Jim into different rifles and such, how about a nice German Jaeger, say 1730-1750 or so. Walloping large bore, rifled, sling swivels, ornately carved brass furniture? Or a Rupp from the Golden Age?
And a number of reenactors would love rifles from the F&I or AWI periods. Even War of 1812. See, Jim, enough different ones to keep you and your family going for decades!
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I would like to see Kibler offer all of the Colonial brass parts in silver. I would buy two sets.
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I'd like to see them in iron.
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I would like to see Kibler offer all of the Colonial brass parts in silver. I would buy two sets.
You can make that happen with the help of a foundry. All of his mounts are cast.
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Well I guess, since you were talking grouse hunting I was thinking of a smooth bore not an SMR. Does his upcoming smooth bore have cast?
I did use my left handed grouse hunting buddy as an example of a Lefty having good results with a RH shotgun, but my post was intended to help the poster(s) that keep asking for Jim's current "rifles" to be made in LH versions.
I myself am left-handed, but also right eye dominance so shooting a "rifle" right-handed is natural for me. Having said that, I am use to solving LH/RH issues.....that is what got me thinking about not seeing any 200 year old Flintlock's with the lock on the left side.
We likely will not know if the Kibler Fowler/trade gun has cast until Jim releases more info....but it would make sense to me that he might build it "straight" as an ambidextrous gun and the folks that just "must" have "cast" could add it in themselves if they know what they are doing, or hire it put in by a Professional.
There is an original lefty French fusil extant.
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Thanks for all the suggestions and enthusiasm. We have to choose future projects very carefully as they of course need to have high widespread interest. There are many projects I personally find interesting, that will either have to wait or may never happen because of this. I'm sure this makes perfect sense.
We also recognize that new kit offerings have been way too slow in development. As mentioned previously, we've gotten some help with this work this past year from Eric Von Ashwege and are looking at perhaps adding additional engineering help here as well. Not to make excuses, but our business has grown so fast and to such a level, new products have become difficult.
Here are what we are planning for future projects in order they will be developed:
1) "Woodsrunner" rifle project
2) Higher end trade gun / fowling piece
3) Hawken rifle (halfstock, percussion)
After this, future projects are somewhat uncertain. Some possibilities are:
Pistol (type uncertain)
Lehigh rifle
Bucks County rifle
Thanks again for all the support.
Jim and Katherine
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I'd like to also mention that for projects beyond the trade gun we will need to obtain original examples for guidance. We want these to be as "correct" as possible given the fact that many thousands of these will be built in the years to come.
So we will need to either purchase great original examples or work out some arrangements with current owners to use pieces for the development of kits. If you have any leads that you think might work for us, please let me know. As mentioned, the first need will be an original Haken rifle.
I hope this isn't overstepping any bounds by mentioning this here. If so I can delete it or move it to a more appropriate location.
Thank you,
Jim
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Jim I don't care what ya build. I shoot right or left handed. If I want a gun bad enough I will learn to shoot it. Lefty or eighty
Wish you all the best an thanks for all you an Katherine do..!!
Oldtravler
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I'd like to also mention that for projects beyond the trade gun we will need to obtain original examples for guidance. We want these to be as "correct" as possible given the fact that many thousands of these will be built in the years to come.
So we will need to either purchase great original examples or work out some arrangements with current owners to use pieces for the development of kits. If you have any leads that you think might work for us, please let me know. As mentioned, the first need will be an original Haken rifle.
I hope this isn't overstepping any bounds by mentioning this here. If so I can delete it or move it to a more appropriate location.
Thank you,
Jim
Jim, I would like to say that "any" posts by (You) are the MOST welcomed here on my "little" thread about the fine products crafted with care at Kibler Longrifles.
I myself refrain from sending you dozens of questions by email as I know you are Very Busy at work making the products we enjoy so much. Having said that, I think it's great to have a venue here to communicate directly with your potential customers.
While waiting on a current kit order to ship OR dreaming of the "new" kits you will bring to market....I personally appreciate any tidbits you can share as time allows.
As we just hit 10,000 views.... this "little" thread has greatly eclipsed even the long running "Patch lube" thread....closer to "talk of the town" rather than irrelevant 8)
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Jim, Do you ever find time to build your fantastic custom rifles any longer?
John
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Hi John. No, not much time for any custom work. We have twelve people working in the shop and it requires a lot of attention. We're hoping to hire some skilled help and hopefully, that will take a little bit off my plate.
My ultimate goal is to get back into doing some custom work when the business is mature enough to sustain itself. We'll see...
I absolutely love 17th century French and English work and I occasionally feel the itch to get involved in it. Someday I'd like to make some super high-end work of this period that might have a number of specialists working for me on the project. I can get excited about this!
Thanks,
Jim
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My heart soars like the hawk to see an American man, wife and team do so well. Mr. Kibler and crew are revolutionizing the hobby and making a “top class rifle gun” available to the masses. God bless you sir!!
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Be still my beating heart 💗💋
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If memory serves me right, there were several other husband and wife teams that preceded the Kiblers that revolutionized our hobby. Bud and Dottie Siler and Jm and Karen Chambers come to mind. Nothing new here, let's move on.
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If memory serves me right, there were several other husband and wife teams that preceded the Kiblers that revolutionized our hobby. Bud and Dottie Siler and Jm and Karen Chambers come to mind. Nothing new here, let's move on.
Wow, didn’t mean to raise your ire, David. A bit ill tempered of a comment.
I plead the 1st. He deserves praise for making not only an excellent quality kit, but one very easy for the average person to assemble a fantastic rifle out of and all for a stellar price with quick delivery. It opens up the sometimes daunting hobby of rifle building to an exceptionally wide audience, evident in Jim’s success. Of course the others that came before him are to be lauded, too.
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If memory serves me right, there were several other husband and wife teams that preceded the Kiblers that revolutionized our hobby. Bud and Dottie Siler and Jm and Karen Chambers come to mind. Nothing new here, let's move on.
Hmmmm, nothing new? LOL, let’s move on? Yes Jim, please move on with more great products!
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I'd sure like to see a fowler or smoothbore offering, but I understand that's probably a relatively small market.
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I'd sure like to see a fowler or smoothbore offering, but I understand that's probably a relatively small market.
I am pretty sure Jim offers some smoothbore options, at least in the larger calibers?
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I'd sure like to see a fowler or smoothbore offering, but I understand that's probably a relatively small market.
Did you see this?
https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=69521.msg701597#msg701597
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https://kiblerslongrifles.com/products/50-caliber-colonial-american-longrifle-kit-sliding-box-down-payment?variant=32246325772406
I think the smooth bore he's talking about is the ones in his colonial rifle listed on Jim's site.
Ed
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I'd sure like to see a fowler or smoothbore offering, but I understand that's probably a relatively small market.
No need to wish or wait for that smoothbore, Jim Chambers PA fowler is one of the best feeling and handling fowler kits out there.
David
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If memory serves me right, there were several other husband and wife teams that preceded the Kiblers that revolutionized our hobby. Bud and Dottie Siler and Jm and Karen Chambers come to mind. Nothing new here, let's move on.
Wow, didn’t mean to raise your ire, David. A bit ill tempered of a comment.
I plead the 1st. He deserves praise for making not only an excellent quality kit, but one very easy for the average person to assemble a fantastic rifle out of and all for a stellar price with quick delivery. It opens up the sometimes daunting hobby of rifle building to an exceptionally wide audience, evident in Jim’s success. Of course the others that came before him are to be lauded, too.
Pease don’t take my comment as “ill tempered”. I have been involved in building these guns since 1975 when I acquired my first T/C Hawken kit from the Patch and Ball gun shop on El Cajon Blvd. in San Diego, Ca. while serving in the US Navy. I remember the exact time and place because this was one of those significant events in my lifetime. T/C’s were revolutionary at the time and introduced many people into the sport/hobby of muzzleloading due to the kit being a precarved kit that could be assembled and finished with basic tools like a screwdriver, drill and sandpaper.
When either finding an original lock or building one from scratch was a necessity for scratch building or restoring one of these old rifles to shooting condition, along came Bud and Dottie Siler who stated manufacturing a reasonably priced lock for the masses thus allowing just about anybody access to a high quality lock ant an affordable price.
Next, Jim and Karen Chambers came along and developed some of the most historically correct kits on the market thus giving us options to upgrade from a CVA or T/C rifle. This was another watershed moment in the evolvement of the muzzleloading rifle as it pertains to the hobbyist or enthusiast.
We now have Jim and Kathern Kibler who have developed the use of ultra precision CNC and have taken our hobby to the next level, currently offering two kits, with more in the works that are both historically accurate, easy to assemble and affordable.
Finally, addressing my statement, “nothing new here, let's move on” was directed at the continuing development and process improvements of manufacturing techniques in the industrial world, not at the technology.
David
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Wow David, the Patch and Ball gun shop is a blast from the past. Got my first muzzleloader there as well. A Thompson Center 50 cal Hawken Kit in 1975 as well. Loved talking to Bill Bracken. I would spend an hour or so there every week and talking to Bill over a cup of coffee. I knew absolutely nothing about black powder when I first went there and Bill was a wealth of knowledge. The San Diego muzzleloaders held a monthly shoot up in Escondido. Great fun. Navy vet as well.
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You guys are late starters, I see. Just kidding. Taylor started in about 1970 and I in 72 or very early 73. We both bought finished TC's.
Bear hunt Nass Valley, B.C. 3 young Mounties. Now, not so young. Too bad about the binocs - lol.
(https://i.ibb.co/5MbhZNf/IMG-3181.jpg) (https://ibb.co/2nG3JDf)
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I think there were others like GRRW (Doc White), Sharon and others who produced pretty historical accurate and high quality gun kits.
The reasons these companies went under was not the quality of their guns or kits. They simply were a victim of the stagflation and also to a degree because they were not really business savy. They took on way too much debt and then went bust. The loss of knowledge was imho quite intense before the flintlock longrifle became more fashionable.
And in addition, the kit instructions were horrendous. Two pages of instructions turned most guns into fine shooters but in a workmanship disaster.
Now, you occasionally see these guns for sale and unless the bore is rusted, this is still a very high-quality gun. It is often cheaper to restock them instead of buying a new parts kit.
I always like the murals at the mess hall in Friendship, where you see orange leather clad trappers flinging hawks and shooting mostly Hawken rifles (the majority probably TC and CVA back then). The now Spanish Investarm outfit still produces the remnants of one of these rifles and is very popular in Europe for all blackpowder shooting disciplines and delivers excellent results.
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GRRW and Sharon were top of the line back then, but were a little out of my price range on a Navy salary. I would have loved a GRRW fullstock Leman.
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I have no idea about the price of a CVA or TC back then in comparison to a GRRW or Sharon, especially the kits.
Can find the prices of the GRRW and the Sharon, but no idea about CVA or TC.
I always hear people complaining in Archery that this and that bow was $70 in 1969 and is now $799.
Using the inflation calculator, it almost always comes in right on the money for what it costs now.... Another niche industry which is manual labor intensive, but not as much as a ML gun.
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GRRW and Sharon were top of the line back then, but were a little out of my price range on a Navy salary. I would have loved a GRRW fullstock Leman.
In 1978 or there bout's, Mike McCormick at Cache La Poudre Rifleworks in Ft. Collins, Co. had a GRRW full stock Leman Indian rifle kit in his shop. I drooled over that rifle for months on end. It was $250.00 which was out of my price range at the time as well.
David
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I couldn’t help it so I did the math. $70 inflating to $795 from 1969 to present is 4.69% / year. The average rate of general inflation over the same period was 3.92%. So actually that’s pretty darn close and not bad when you consider that making archery equipment (or muzzleloader equipment) is so labor intensive when the cost of other things over that period has dropped due to automation.
The observation that, though the increase seems huge, it is pretty close to the calculator numbers, is spot on. The big problem is you don’t experience it as an average… the price of something doesn’t move for several years and then takes a big jump.
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I'd sure like to see a fowler or smoothbore offering, but I understand that's probably a relatively small market.
Did you see this?
https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=69521.msg701597#msg701597
I wonder if that is one or the other?
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I'd sure like to see a fowler or smoothbore offering, but I understand that's probably a relatively small market.
No need to wish or wait for that smoothbore, Jim Chambers PA fowler is one of the best feeling and handling fowler kits out there.
David
I'm building a Chambers English fowler now. I almost went with the PA Fowler but wanted to do something different from maple.
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I had a Chambers Penn fowler in .54 smoothbore and a cherry stock. The barrel was sized appropriately ie the dimensions were smaller than my 20 bore. Like a fool, I sold it to a friend who really really wanted it .
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Wow David, the Patch and Ball gun shop is a blast from the past. Got my first muzzleloader there as well.
Small world! I bought my Sharon Hawken from Patch and Ball! Still have it, cockeyed lock position and all. And agreed, Bill was a fountain of info for me as well!
I think the 805 freeway runs through that area now.....
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Wow David, the Patch and Ball gun shop is a blast from the past. Got my first muzzleloader there as well.
Small world! I bought my Sharon Hawken from Patch and Ball! Still have it, cockeyed lock position and all. And agreed, Bill was a fountain of info for me as well!
I think the 805 freeway runs through that area now.....
Pretty amazing that 3 of us on this forum bought guns from that shop. It is a small world. I used to fly to San Diego once every couple of years. Worked and stayed on Coronado Island for the DOD. One of my favorite places to visit. I loved all the restaurants, good food at reasonable prices.
David
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You guys are late starters, I see. Just kidding. Taylor started in about 1970 and I in 72 or very early 73. We both bought finished TC's.
Bear hunt Nass Valley, B.C. 3 young Mounties. Now, not so young. Too bad about the binocs - lol.
(https://i.ibb.co/5MbhZNf/IMG-3181.jpg) (https://ibb.co/2nG3JDf)
WOW that’s Awesome Daryl… wish I had pictures of me and my Friend PJ William back in the late 70’s - early 80’s
Anthony
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Our supplier back in the mid 70s was a place called Ron Shirk's Shooters Supply, a TC Renegade cost $90 in 1975 which would be $470 in today's money.
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For many years I had wanted an authentic long rifle, but couldnt come close to the price. I was delighted to discover Kiblers kits, and recently completed my Colonial in .58 cal. Still waiting for range time . I went the .58 to lighten the rifle and because I already had two .54 Hawken style, and a .50 t/c. I couldnt be more pleased with the idea of the Woods Runner rifle, in that it will come in a .45 offering, and still be relatively light and easy handling. The only problem now, is which centerfires to I sell to pay for it?
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Awesome! Enjoy Dave
Anthony
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First ML got it back about 1966. 32 cal Douglas barrel unknown maker.
(https://i.ibb.co/NZ0XSY4/D4-DD7-E67-715-B-4013-B5-BE-FE625250-B77-F.jpg) (https://ibb.co/MMzb6NX)
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All these newcomers! I got my first ML in 1960, when I was 15. Got to getting into mischief, so Dad introduced me to a friend of his that was a History prof at U Maryland. He was a big Civil War buff, and had formed a shooting team for the reenactors and target shooters.
For a $20 bill, I became the proud owner of an 1861 .58 cal Springfield musket. We were in the Washington DC area, and travelled around to about all the military bases in the area, shooting at the 100-yard targets. These were mainly 24 clay pigeons taped to a 4 x 8 sheet of plywood - first 8-man team to bust all their targets were winners!
From time to time we did have other targets - the one I recall most was a 1/4 stick of dynamite with a blasting cap on top. That one was individual shooting, and I cannot recall me ever being the one to hit the target.
We all wore period clothing, most were original, 100-year old stuff.
Alas, Dad got out of the Navy, and took a job down in Florida, where there seemed to be NO ML guys at all. Then, of course, I went into the Navy as well, and Vietnam started while I was in boot at San Diego.