Wait, didn't you just start another thread a couple days ago with the same topic? https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=69557.msg696019#new
In this country, the flatter butts gave way to the crescent plates as they moved into the 19th century. They then seemed to get progressively more curvy, and by the mid 1850s even our military muskets incorporated some curvature. This trend continued into the early cartridge era. By the late 1970s some firearms manufacturers started offering flatter plates on the heavier recoiling rifles. As black powder started yielding to smokeless powders, the curvy plates started to be replaced by flatter plates.
Fowling types tended to stay with the more logical flatter types.
So, to answer your question, there doesn't seem to be any particular region or schools, etc, that did one or the other, instead a more universal stylistic trend.
In this country, the flatter butts gave way to the crescent plates as they moved into the 19th century. They then seemed to get progressively more curvy, and by the mid 1850s even our military muskets incorporated some curvature. This trend continued into the early cartridge era. By the late 1970s some firearms manufacturers started offering flatter plates on the heavier recoiling rifles. As black powder started yielding to smokeless powders, the curvy plates started to be replaced by flatter plates.
Fowling types tended to stay with the more logical flatter types.
So, to answer your question, there doesn't seem to be any particular region or schools, etc, that did one or the other, instead a more universal stylistic trend.
Wait, didn't you just start another thread a couple days ago with the same topic? https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=69557.msg696019#new
Must be cabin fever setting in already, how can it get ugly discussing the shape of a buttplate??!?!?!? :oWait, didn't you just start another thread a couple days ago with the same topic? https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=69557.msg696019#new
Yes, he did. But the discussion turned ugly and I moved the thread to the Moderators File for review and possible penalties. If this thread doesn't remain civil I will remove it too.
Ron
Isn't is possible the crescent plate evolved in America as a consequence of the lengthening of the rifle?
Jaegers and English sporting rifles had short barrels and flat plates.
Scheutzen rifles, because they are muzzle-heavy, have "hooked" plates that are effectively deep crescent plates. The plate makes it possible to support the forend aft of the balance point, keeping your arm near the body.
As muzzle weight moves forward, at some point you *must* have a crescent or hooked plate, you don't have a choice. If you had a 48" x 1" straight barrel you couldn't keep it on your shoulder with a flat plate. You wouldn't have enough friction on the buttplate. Or to get enough friction you'd be pulling back extremely hard.
I think people agree that long barrels are the technical response to ballistic needs. And that swamped barrels are a technical response to the balance of a heavy barrel. Crescent buttplates, as technology, offset the effect of a long or heavy barrel. If the fulcrum is your left hand, and you add weight on a long cantilever past that, you have to hold down the other end of the "teeter-totter." Seems to me.
Isn't is possible the crescent plate evolved in America as a consequence of the lengthening of the rifle?
Jaegers and English sporting rifles had short barrels and flat plates.
Scheutzen rifles, because they are muzzle-heavy, have "hooked" plates that are effectively deep crescent plates. The plate makes it possible to support the forend aft of the balance point, keeping your arm near the body.
As muzzle weight moves forward, at some point you *must* have a crescent or hooked plate, you don't have a choice. If you had a 48" x 1" straight barrel you couldn't keep it on your shoulder with a flat plate. You wouldn't have enough friction on the buttplate. Or to get enough friction you'd be pulling back extremely hard.
I think people agree that long barrels are the technical response to ballistic needs. And that swamped barrels are a technical response to the balance of a heavy barrel. Crescent buttplates, as technology, offset the effect of a long or heavy barrel. If the fulcrum is your left hand, and you add weight on a long cantilever past that, you have to hold down the other end of the "teeter-totter." Seems to me.
While barrel length might have had an effect of the butt plate shape, I'm thinking it was just artistry of the era. Fowling guns of the era were often very long in comparison to early rifled guns, even with barrel lengths of over 50" being quite common. I have never found the flatter early style plates on longrifles to be any problem with shouldering with the over 42" barrels.
I think crescent buttplates on longrifles must serve the exact same function as on schuetzen rifles, hooks on biathalon rifles, etc. Nobody would mount a scheutzen rifle like a shotgun, and everybody agrees the hooked plate exists because the rifles are barrel heavy. The plate goes with an off-the-arm shooting technique, which requires standing almost at a right angle to the target and bringing the rifle close to the chest.I have a book published in 1921 that describes the guns used by wilderness scouts that says exactly the same thing. It also stated that holding the rifle cross-chest enabled one to shoot from behind a tree with only an eye and an elbow exposed. A valuable trait when shooting game or enemies.
Maybe I need to get involved in this discussion.... ;DWait, didn't you just start another thread a couple days ago with the same topic? https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=69557.msg696019#new
Yes, he did. But the discussion turned ugly and I moved the thread to the Moderators File for review and possible penalties. If this thread doesn't remain civil I will remove it too.
Ron
If you throw a crescent plated rifle to your shoulder and shoot it like a fowler, it will hurt. I just can't believe an artistic gunsmith turned that into a national fad, and people trying to look cool tortured themselves for generations.
I think crescent buttplates on longrifles must serve the exact same function as on schuetzen rifles, hooks on biathalon rifles, etc. Nobody would mount a scheutzen rifle like a shotgun, and everybody agrees the hooked plate exists because the rifles are barrel heavy. The plate goes with an off-the-arm shooting technique, which requires standing almost at a right angle to the target and bringing the rifle close to the chest.
Unless our forefathers were total masochists who enjoyed stabbing their shoulders, the crescent plate must signify a shift in shooting technique away from shotgun/fowler style, to something like the schuetzen style.
Maybe the question should be, "Were people shooting flat-plate longrifles from the arm? And did crescent plates evolve to acommodate that?" Look at how modern national match service-rifle competitors use flat plates in standing position. It explains everything.
I think fowlers aren't swamped, are they? That was a response to barrel weight in rifles if I understand correctly.
I spent some time this morning looking at Grinsdale's Fowler book. The majority of Hudson Bay Fowlers have crescent BPs. Looked at British Fowlers and some Also have crescent BPs. Some of those guns are early guns. The Hudson Bay Fowler are very lo,ng, and rather large bore.
We tend to think that the American experiences are unique and therefore the way things were done here are a result of special circumstances or needs. Meanwhile across the world in all sorts of dangerous places different styles emerged, but crescent buttplates are not seen. Of course we can compare schuetzen rifles with crescent-buttplate rifles here, with crude open sights and think they served the same needs. Perhaps. Sometimes styles just emerge and catch on. If you look at Kindig’s Golden Age book the gun weights are listed. Plenty of 9, 10 pound guns with long barrels and flat buttplates. Somehow they made do with flat buttplates, as did hunters in Africa and India, and as did American soldiers during the late flint and percussion eras when the crescent buttplates became popular here. I’m not dis-favoring crescent buttplates. I don’t think they are necessary or that there are compelling reasons, other than historical ones, to have them. Historical reasons are good enough for me.
We tend to think that the American experiences are unique and therefore the way things were done here are a result of special circumstances or needs. Meanwhile across the world in all sorts of dangerous places different styles emerged, but crescent buttplates are not seen. Of course we can compare schuetzen rifles with crescent-buttplate rifles here, with crude open sights and think they served the same needs. Perhaps. Sometimes styles just emerge and catch on. If you look at Kindig’s Golden Age book the gun weights are listed. Plenty of 9, 10 pound guns with long barrels and flat buttplates. Somehow they made do with flat buttplates, as did hunters in Africa and India, and as did American soldiers during the late flint and percussion eras when the crescent buttplates became popular here. I’m not dis-favoring crescent buttplates. I don’t think they are necessary or that there are compelling reasons, other than historical ones, to have them. Historical reasons are good enough for me.
Has anybody checked? That was my question. And what I’m finding is that nobody has seen this addressed, the way barrels are endlessly discussed.
If you look at the Hudson Valley Fowlers, some have rather deep crescents. We think as fowlers to be shot at flying ducks. However back in the 18th and 19thcentury,I spent some time this morning looking at Grinsdale's Fowler book. The majority of Hudson Bay Fowlers have crescent BPs. Looked at British Fowlers and some Also have crescent BPs. Some of those guns are early guns. The Hudson Bay Fowler are very lo,ng, and rather large bore.
I wasn’t thinking about gently curved buttplates but more the deeply curved ones as seen on Hawken, SMR, and other late rifles.
From 1795 ...
Nobody was, and still is, more interested in shooting accuracy than the U.S. Military. If curved buttplates contributed to accuracy, they would have stuck with them.
The modern military has different weapons for snipers than infantry, but I don't know how far that goes back. That very fact, though, leads me to think that accuracy is not the primary goal of the bulk of their rifles for quite some time now. It is the primary factor for sniping no doubt. Of course the butt shape isn't different.
As to the users in period, it's my notion that they were most concerned about caliber and type of arm, smooth v. rifled, than any myriad of styling choices because the various regions didn't intermix so much as we do now. I don't think a man wanting a second gun in South Carolina was going to have the option of getting a NY or Ohio variation at his local source. But I haven't put any study into into such. Perhaps the rich guys traveled all around and made big collections, but not the common fellow who certainly did not have a small armory of long guns as most shooters do today.
Those who enjoy collecting have been around for many years. Here's an even older example. Sound familiar to anyone? Bob
1. No... The military was not ALWAYS concerned with accuracy. We need to stop looking at this through our late 20th century/early 21st century lens.
It depends on how many guns qualify as a "collection"... and why they collected them.
Edward Fitzgerald Beale was a naval officer in the California theater during the Mexican American war. Later, he was tasked with carrying dispatches between California and the east. He served in several government posts, including Superintendent of Indian Affairs for California. This put him in contact with a number of historical characters. One was Andrew Sublette, younger brother of William and Milton Sublette. After Andrew's death (by grizzly bear), Beale acquired Andrew's rifle. He apparently "collected" arms based on provenance. I think there are other examples of gun collections in early America based on some famous person or other having once owned said gun.
Buffalo Bill Cody was a prolific collector of firearms.
1. Look at the Erhard Wolf book on Jaeger rifles. A few of the later rifles show more pronounced heals. Yes... they're still pretty flat... but it shows a beginning of the evolution to curved butt plates. These correspond to similar styles used in America at the same time (roughly 1770's).
2. The American rifle tradition evolved with German immigrants.
3. Because American gunsmiths were less restrained by more formal styles, I believe they were more free to change and evolve... for better or for worse... and there doesn't need to be a logical, or scientific, or engineering, reason for it.
4. "Calibers got smaller because all the big game was gone". I don't believe that myth. I think it was partly due to economics. Small gun... less powder and lead to buy... less expensive. What I've read leads me to believe the smaller calibers were starting to be used it poorer areas first and moved out from there.
5. You're speaking too much in absolutes... "clearly"... not really... "you have to agree"... no I don't.
6. "More art than science"... you're looking too hard at cause and effect. Not everything is done for logical reasons. It reminds me of a line from a TV show... "it doesn't always have to make sense... like plus size bikinis". Barrel length and weight may have nothing to do with the shape of the butt plate.
7. I've read far more period journal references to shooting from a rest than I have about standing square or angled in relation to the target.
8. Some competitive shooting matches may have established positions that you were expected to use. I believe these evolved from formal matches in Germany. Back county matches probably didn't. They could shoot however they wanted.
9. There are period paintings of shooting matches. A good one is "Shooting for the Beef" by George Caleb Bingham (ca. 1850). It shows a back country shooting match.
10. Crescent buttplates may be bad for some shooting positions... but some shooting positions are just plain bad in themselves. Remember all those drawings of match shooters from the 19th century in contorted positions? In hindsight they don't make much sense either... but they did it.
What does this tell you about the shape of a buttplate?
(https://i.ibb.co/vY69RSJ/fulton.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
Sometimes we just have to accept what "is"... or in this case "was". There doesn't need to be an explanation. The same holds true for ourselves. Lets accept ourselves for who we are and accept the longrifle for what it is.
Wasco & Deschutes counties? Are you picking on Oregon?
"Muskrat" Mike
McMinnville, Oregon
Wasco & Deschutes counties? Are you picking on Oregon?
"Muskrat" Mike
McMinnville, Oregon
Not at all. My hypothesis is that the longrifle was developed over decades in anticipation of a trip to hunt mulies in eastern Oregon, but they were never lucky enough to pull a tag.
One thing bout the hooks, they are MUCH slower to the shoulder for an aimed shot.
Years ago, 1986'ish, we had a contest at rendezvous called "The duel". I have spoken of this on this site, before.
Simply put, an upright post had a cross piece with an 8" plate of steel at each end of the cross piece/rod. The plates faced
"The Duelers". Each dueler held his or her rifle under the shoulder muzzle pointed down, in both hands. At the signal, whether
a whistle or command, each dueler would shoulder their gun and shoot at their disk. The first disk hit, would rotate the 'cross piece'
removing the other competitor's 'disk' form their line of sight.
At this day and age, most of the shooters were shooting hooked butt plates and most were Hawken-styled rifles.
My English-styled rifle was never beaten at this "game". It came immediately to the shoulder, straight up into the pocket and bam-
on steel every time, instantly the butt hit the shoulder the sights were already on the target. This happened, no matter who shot it
as a few of the lads wanted to try this style of gun. It worked splendidly, every time. Unbeaten at this "game".
(https://i.ibb.co/wBNFtDh/DSCF0022.jpg) (https://ibb.co/JmRwZXj)