AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: Tim Ault on January 29, 2022, 08:46:48 PM
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Gentlemen , since I’m starting a few Fowler/smoothbore guns I guess I should consider their loading needs . I’ve only been a rifleman and carry the patch and ball in my bag, powder in a horn . So what do you all carry your shot in for the smooth bores ? And what exactly is it called so I can search for one ? It don’t need to be totally HC I’d rather have function over form .
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Until I find something better, I am using a small to medium flat horn. It rides in my pouch.
Mike
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Traditionally shot was carried in a "shot snake" a leather cylindrical container with an adjustable charger on the end. This was carried over the shoulder in much the same fashion as a possibles bag.
When I hunt pheasants etc. at a farm I carry plastic speed loaders (available from RMC sports) they carry your charge of shot on one end and the powder charge on the other. I put over shot wads in one pocket and cushion wads in another. This set up gets me back into action rapidly, w/o a lot of stuff to carry.
Ron
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If you can find one the book "Getting the lead out" Karl Z. Smith will give you an idea of whr was used.
Tim C.
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Here are a few examples in both cloth and leather.
Enjoy,
Kevin
(https://i.ibb.co/4fD61mg/SONY-DSC.jpg) (https://ibb.co/dc3dmWJ)
(https://i.ibb.co/VVfZWtZ/SONY-DSC.jpg) (https://ibb.co/cJ4Hc1H)
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Thank you . So they usually just had a wooden plug ? Would a push button valve work also ?
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(https://i.ibb.co/FbkKxFd/12-FF0-E2-E-74-A4-4426-A29-A-666-A0-D5-A5487.png) (https://ibb.co/6Rcmnkq)
This shot snake ..holds about 7-8 ounces …and has a very nice plug / stopper that clicks in…for a very tight fit. Can use it for balls too.
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I use a replica leather covered Dixon Flask for shot. it has the typical English adjustable shot measure for a spout.
I locked (with solder) it at 1 1/8oz. as that is what I use in my 20 bore flinter.
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From time to time, when out hunting, I don't really want to carry a load of gear. Rather than a horn and pouch, I carry a bullet board and four or five of these brass chargers for powder. I made these to hold up to 120 grains of 3F powder, but have made several others to hold larger and smaller powder charges. I also use one to carry five or six unpatched round balls or a charge of shot. They work great slipped in a pocket for a quick afternoon walk about when I don't intend to do a lot of shooting. (They also work well to keep small items organized inside a pouch. I have another one that has a long wooden spool I made for thread and a few heavy needles.)
(https://preview.ibb.co/mZM4Ex/Chargers_1.jpg) (http://ibb.co/hSRFMc)
(https://preview.ibb.co/nCAaMc/Chargers_4.jpg) (http://ibb.co/i5FmSH)
(https://preview.ibb.co/fH2Bux/Chargers_3.jpg) (http://ibb.co/hqdjEx)
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I use a shot snake sometimes. Or just a ball bag with shot in it.
Nesmuck, those are not shot snakes.
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Typically I carry paper cartridges of powder, and shot. Plus appropriate wads for the amount of shooting I anticipated. The total weight of stuff is a lot less this way. BJH
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Here is one shot snake, a commercial one from track.
(https://i.ibb.co/WxB51PS/shot-snake-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/h729vZp)
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I usually use pre made paper shot cups/cartridges as I really don't like messing with loose shot in the field.
I have in the past carried a small leather bag with several lengths of cane/bamboo containing premeasured shot loads in them, closed off with corks. These were carries in a small leather bag hanging from my shot pouch.
(https://i.ibb.co/Zxd66HX/20200403-135659.jpg) (https://ibb.co/PgxZZTj)
(https://i.ibb.co/d6LKMky/20200403-135614.jpg) (https://ibb.co/MpGNSPL)
I seem to recall these tubes were cut to hold up to 1 1/4 ounce of #5 shot.
(https://i.ibb.co/YN9y1vn/20190213-213839.jpg) (https://ibb.co/6yh1T69)
(https://i.ibb.co/dkZH3GL/20190213-213939.jpg) (https://ibb.co/44k0DPY)
(https://i.ibb.co/M78tFNh/20190213-214042.jpg) (https://ibb.co/dDbV8Kc)
(https://i.ibb.co/5TswsnK/20190213-222605.jpg) (https://ibb.co/CBVDVMP)
I usually load these flat folded side down then tear off the twisted end when even with the muzzle, a thin card on top of that holds it in place.
(https://i.ibb.co/r5CW0C9/20190213-204223.jpg) (https://ibb.co/6D3dw3Q)
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Those shot ctgs. should tighten up the patterns from a cylinder bored gun, or from a choked one, for that matter.
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Thanks all for the great ideas, I’m getting way ahead of myself but I was already challenged to a round of sporting clays against a bud that shoots a modern 410 bore once I mentioned I’d be shooting a flintlock , so I gotta get after how I can carry enough shot . I’m liking the pre made paper tubes .
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Here is one shot snake, a commercial one from track.
(https://i.ibb.co/WxB51PS/shot-snake-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/h729vZp)
The only problem with those is that Track hasn't had them in stock for a while now... I think I looked at getting one to go with my smoothbore after I got it... That's gotta be around 2 years ago now.
The only thing they have in stock is a shot flask with the choice of either an English or Irish head.
I would be interested to know what the holdup is... Because they were unobtainable before the pandemic mess.
(Wasn't my aim to pick on you Daryl... Just tired of seeing the words "out of stock" everywhere)
Mike
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I use a shot snake sometimes. Or just a ball bag with shot in it.
Nesmuck, those are not shot snakes.
Fill me in….What is it ?
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NP Mike. I posted it to show what a commercial shot snake looked like, is all. Whether they are available right now, or for years gone by, is/was immaterial.
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If you are going to shoot a round of Sporting Clays, of say 50 targets, you are going to need a shot snake. I did buy one from track about 20 years ago.
It can carry 3 lbs. of shot. So, if you are shooting one ounce loads you are going to need to refill it before your round is over.
When I take it hunting, I only carry it half full.
I don't know what you guys are hunting with your smooth bores, but you don't appear to be optimistic. That is unless you are turkey hunting.
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Snake belt as mentioned for heavy shooting at the clays range. For field shooting i prefer these shot/powder chargers carried in a pocket.
(https://i.ibb.co/pyWSV7f/20220131-092829.jpg) (https://ibb.co/L5Q3jFx)
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Daily bag limit for squirrels here is 8, my tin of cartridges holds, 8. Plus I have one already in the gun, and usually one more with the needed wadding in the little hanging pocket in my shot pouch for if I need a quick reload. This is more than enough usually, especially as I really don't feel like cleaning and prepping 8 squirrels at a time, lol.
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Keep in mind that horn, or tin, or even formed rawhide, sounds like a skeleton falling down a flight of stairs in a garbage can. A good shot snake that is welted, glued, and saddle stitched, (they bust their seams otherwise )is the way to hunt. A good Irish style valve makes it the ideal shot carrier. If you want to get fancy add another snake to the same strap for powder.
Hungry Horse
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Taylor has a really nice shot snake. Perhaps he could post a picture. The leather is quite thick, seems to me.
The one Track pictured, looks very thin and quite supple.
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Daryl, I had that shot snake [ TOF ] and it didn't hold up long. The adjustable measure tore out after one season and the leather was too worn to do much about it. The one I have now was made for me and the leather must be 1/8th thick !
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I wondered about the flimsy look of the Track snake. Tks for the heads-up.
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Ill post a pic of my shot snake tomorrow.
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like I said before I've had mine for 20 years. But then I seldom carry it more than half full. I have filled it up and it looks like it could burst if you dropped it on a hard surface. I think they were $65.00 when I bought mine.
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(https://i.ibb.co/PtQD4Py/0-D0-D3-B80-F74-F-4-FAB-8-B8-D-844-D473128-A3.jpg) (https://ibb.co/yVS45ZC)
Call it a day ..shot snake …How many Partdridge can one take in a day. If your shooting clays …your out of luck
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My rigs.
(https://i.ibb.co/D8NdJrB/DSCN2491.jpg) (https://ibb.co/TbZyfWQ)
(https://i.ibb.co/m4LmZ0H/DSCN2502.jpg) (https://ibb.co/njHTdBD)
(https://i.ibb.co/XknTc5D/DSCN2508.jpg) (https://ibb.co/CsjFR96)
The English charger is faster to use than the Irish top, but sometimes a detachable top helps with the old long barreled guns.
I like the shot belt better than the shot pouch, as it stays in place better to my idea.
The shot belt is homemade with an old top.
Richard.
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James,
Are those chargers newly made ? If so, may I ask who made them ??? I have been trying to figure out how to make some like the ones in your photo for quite some time. Not an easy fabrication job.
Thanks
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James,
Are those chargers newly made ? If so, may I ask who made them ??? I have been trying to figure out how to make some like the ones in your photo for quite some time. Not an easy fabrication job.
Thanks
Dave, these are modern made. I think they were made in India. I bought these from Jon Laubach.
They have heavier walls than originals but they work quite well.
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(https://i.ibb.co/0YtSfr1/20220201-174957.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ssHGFqc)
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Thar's a snake!!
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Pocket horn with Irish shot head.
Kevin
(https://i.ibb.co/nftZRK4/IMG-20200314-163104083.jpg) (https://ibb.co/QntzXxh)
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That's very nice, Kevin. The trouble I see with the Irish spout, is that it takes 2 hands, one to hold the container vertically, the other to remove the spout.
If you are also holding the gun in one hand, you will be short one hand required for the job, at hand. ;)
Thus, some method, like a strapped harness for carrying the container in a vertical manner is needed, I feel, or at least would be beneficial.
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So am I correct that the Irish shot spout is a valve and an adjustable measure all in one ?
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This is the Irish spout.
As you remove the scoop, the valve shuts off the shot flow.
The scoop is adjustable.
(https://i.ibb.co/nftZRK4/IMG-20200314-163104083.jpg)
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I think the Irish heads, top are a pain to use, a two hand operation. The English much simpler one hand operation.
Tim C.
(https://i.ibb.co/1mvyc5b/IMG-0474-2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/2knVJQ5)
(https://i.ibb.co/ZYGpw9Q/IMG-0476-2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/vQV6r9N)
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Daryl,
The earlier Irish tops do not have a shut off. when you withdraw the measure, the hole is wide open, thats why it took some practice to not chuck your shot all over the ground.
these later ones with a shut off are a lot handier, but never canbe as handy as ann"English" top,....apart from being detachable, which Can help with a long barreled gun at times. (uless you learn to trail the gun behind your foot, to bring the barrel within easier reach!)
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I agree the levered measure is easier with one hand, but these more modern Irish ones, if the snake or flask holding them, is in a harness at the side, they are one-handers
for me. Maybe large hand size helps.
The Dixon with the rotating measure in drams or ounces is easily worked with one hand as well, finger over the top, invert and push the lever with thumb - release lever and pour
either shot or powder into the bore. I use a replica Dixon flask as my shot flask. I solder locked the measure, which is set at 3 drams and throws 1 1/8oz. shot.
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Just purchased at the Lewisburg show yesterday…
(https://i.ibb.co/z2mzp90/7-AC31870-733-E-44-E2-8-EEC-485-ACA084-BFB.jpg) (https://ibb.co/2MFTxVf)
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Jim Dell makes nice shot snakes.
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Those English valves are notorious for bridging and giving you a partial load. Besides I’m part Irish.
Hungry Horse
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I wonder why these new shot belts/snakes are so narrow?
It looks like shot would hang up in them if it had been in the snake for long.
H-Horse,
Yes, it is possible to bridge with certain sizes of shot, but never had trouble with a shot belt I can think of. More on a shot flask carried in a pocket.
I'm sure we can forgive you for being part Irish! ;)
I think I am as well......
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Well, Taylor and I are both, with a little Romanian & Roma thrown in, so I guess, quarter each. LOL
I find bridging in my flask when using even 7 1/2 shot at times. I usually now, put my index finger of the spout and swing the gate with my thumb. Release the gate, still holding
my finger over the spout, give the flask a shake, tipping the flask up, then swing the gate again, while pointing the flask down. This usually results in a perfect "fill".
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Why not just make your own shot snake? The heads are available now from Dixie, your choice, English or Irish. They also have the commercial "Snake" like the one pictures from TOTW for about $185. (Save about $110 by making your own?
FWIW.
--JB
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I've had an Irish Head sitting on a small table, for about 20 years. Maybe one day I'll make a snake using it.
I hate stitching leather, or anything for that matter, but not as much as I hate stitching up my hide. I switched
to CA for that job, but learned right quick(the first time) not to use the kicker. That stuff stings a lot more than a mite.
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I have several of the containers that Njames Roger's showed, originals I picked up somewhere. Like them alot, secure and compact. Usually done 't need many shots.
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Just got a batch of axis deer antler in. Might have to fire up the lathe and get out the leather and linen thread and see what I can cobble together.
Mike
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This is the shot flask I use at rendezvous:
(https://i.ibb.co/vH4JkqR/Dixon-Flask-Replica.jpg) (https://ibb.co/CzKnQ8D)
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Below is a CVA shot flask from the early 90's. it has served me well even though it says CVA on it. You might find something like it on Ebay. Or make your own...............Bob
(https://i.ibb.co/6gy4JFg/Shot-Flask.jpg) (https://ibb.co/D517gQ5)
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I wondered about the flimsy look of the Track snake. Tks for the heads-up.
Pure supposition here, but the current cost of the Irish and English style shot heads might be the problem with acquisition of them for the snakes and the leather flasks.
Like most all things from Track, they do not personally make much. That shot snake is manufactured by October Country in North Idaho. Actually, back in the day, I designed that product, guessing somewhere in the middle to late 1980's. IIRC, although it does not have a gusset between the leather sides, there is a double row of stitching. While I owned October Country up until 2005, I don't recall ever having a complaint regarding the seams coming loose. We did use a rather thin piece of leather for the body of the snake, primarily so the leather would fit between the valve base and the bushing supplied with the valve. It took some precision sewing to get the leather the right size. I believe one of the ladies that worked there sewing is still employed there. She was terrific.
John (Bigsmoke)
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Eric Van Alstine made this shot snake for me. I believe the spout was made by Sparks Mumma. Excuse me if I have the spelling wrong and excuse the photography.
(https://i.ibb.co/zQZ42Zn/Resized-20220326-122244-6892.jpg) (https://ibb.co/mb4cy4D)
(https://i.ibb.co/4VbSRgZ/Resized-20220326-122252-9963.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ZMQgz16)