AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: hortonstn on March 19, 2022, 12:38:31 AM
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Will brass bore brushes hurt a match grade barrel?
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Will brass bore brushes hurt a match grade barrel?
No they will not, I have used them for years and no problems at all.
Dennis
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As have I. I tried the nylon ones with only marginal success.
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I have never used a brass brush but I had a bronze brush come apart on me many years ago. I was lucky and had a cleaning patch around the brush when I pushed it down the bore and it created enuf of a seal so I could pop it out with a bunch of 4f through the vent. I stopped using bronze brushes.
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I'm wondering why you would need to use one ?
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Many modern bench rest shooters today, will not use them for fear of harming their 4140 and 4150 or Stainless 416 match barrels.
I cannot "see" nor understand any reason for their use in our ML barrels, even though our barrels are likely much softer and prone to
any adverse reactions to misuse, if indeed, the use of bronze brushes is misuse. I stopped using bronze brushes back in the 70's in
my modern match barrels as well. I was capable of understanding and accepting on faith, that the "experts" in the field of competition
who were willing to share their learned knowledge were not steering me/us asunder.
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When cleaning my smoothbore after a trip to the range, I use a tornado brush sparingly.
I had to use one of those tornado brushes to clean the melted plastic from the bore of a 12.
Never again and I learned to put a buffer wad between the black powder and the plastic wad.
problem solved. I did see scratches from that brush, which is stainless steel, which is softer than
the bore material, but the brush scratched it, none the less.
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I remember on the other forum they were arguing about this very thing.....pages of back and forth on it. I had a Jaeger almost done and polished all the metal armory bright. I took a pretty big brass brush...... 16 gauge or thereabouts and scrubbed it across a flat on the barrel, left to right vigorously for 30 or so seconds so an easy 100 times back and forth. I wiped the barrel off and couldn't find a scratch on it. This was on a Rice barrel. I use em' and will continue to after that experiment.
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That being said I don't use them all that much as black powder cleans up so easily with water. I use em' most if I shoot one evening and plan on shooting the next day. I won't clean the rifle between shooting sessions in those instances and like the brush to knock out some of the fouling that hardened overnight.
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Thanks for your info
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When i clean my bore, I first plug the vent and then fill and drain the barrel 2 or 3 times. By then the water comes out fairly clear. I then run a brush down the barrel just a couple of strokes. I then plug and refill the barrel with tepid water. When I drain the barrel what comes out is almost as dirty as the first couple of times. I believe it really helps get the final residue out and saves on cleaning patches without harming the bore.
Again this is how I do it, if you don't want to use a bore brush then don't. Many ways to skin a cat as they say.
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All my barrels are cleaned with the breech in a bucket of cool to cold water, using one patch on the rod for cleaning and 4 or 5 for drying.
No need for a brush at any time. The water and patch gets them perfectly clean.
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I use phosphor-bronze brushes in my match grade custom rifles and my muzzleloaders when they need it. My muzzleloaders don't need brushes very often. The centerfire rifles need them for the copper jacket fouling. I would not use a brush made of steel but anything softer than steel will not harm your barrel.
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In your most humble opinion, Prairie dog shooter. In the most humble opinion of guys who shoot bench rest competition, many will not put anything buy a nylon brush through their bores.
The nylon is to carry the solvent only.
Perhaps a good case in point. Perhaps you could check with the guys who have been winning the monthly mail in matches & see if they use or need to use the bronze brushes for cleaning.
One has said he does, sometimes, wonder what the others do? We are now starting the 3rd year of these matches.
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I'm trying to remove teflon residu from a benchrest rifle I don't use a brush either just wondering if a brush would hurt . I'm open to a simple method but don't think water will work.
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hortonstn: I shot light bench and bench and x-stix for several years using teflon patching and did not notice any buildup in my rifles. I'm not saying there wasnt any there just that I didnt notice any. When shooting Teflon I clean between shots all the time. I only used room temp water to clean between shots and for final clean up. I was shooting an 10/1000 oversized ball with 20/1000 teflon coated patch through a false muzzle so it was a good snug fit.
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Many modern bench rest shooters today, will not use them for fear of harming their 4140 and 4150 or Stainless 416 match barrels.
I cannot "see" nor understand any reason for their use in our ML barrels, even though our barrels are likely much softer and prone to
any adverse reactions to misuse, if indeed, the use of bronze brushes is misuse. I stopped using bronze brushes back in the 70's in
my modern match barrels as well. I was capable of understanding and accepting on faith, that the "experts" in the field of competition
who were willing to share their learned knowledge were not steering me/us asunder.
Maybe things have changed but I shot benchrest matches up and down the eastern US, back in the 1970's and 80's, everyone used brass/bronze brushes. Do not recall every seeing any other kind being used. Barrels were often bore scoped and never revealed any brush damage. Now flexing of cleaning rods in bore, even with bore guides showed bore damage. Often wiping out a land from constant cleaning with a flexing cleaning rod.
Dennis
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I have no need for a brush bronze or nylon. My rifle cleans up easily with only water. Then a patch with WD40 and if it won't be fired for a while, bear oil. My smoothbores are the ones that can have the most fouling, especially with paper cartridges , but my last shot is taken with a soaking wet patch and ball and that gets rid of most of it. Then it's just water etc as for the rifle.
It really doesn't take that long.
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I think the solvents used in centerfire barrels to remove copper will melt a plastic brush.
I will use plastic brushes to remove black powder fouling from nooks and crannies where a patch can't reach. Soap and water won't hurt them.
Bench rest shooters are a peculiar bunch. Some will not use Kroil oil anywhere near their rifle and some swear it's the best bore cleaner in existence.
I believe rifle barrels are most often damaged by improper use of the cleaning rods or use of an improper cleaning rod. I can tell if a person is a serious shooter or not when I see their cleaning rods.
Correct use of a bronze brush won't scratch steel.
So many different opinions of cleaning methods among seriously competitive shooters is why I follow the suggestions of the makers of the match barrels I use. My thinking is, I will be on the same page as the barrel maker should problems arise down the road. At least they can't blame my cleaning method for the problem.
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The bigger issue is guys putting new brass brush down a ML and not being able to pull it back out. They then pull hard and it stays in the barrel. For many shooters that is a big problem to resolve.
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Maybe things have changed but I shot benchrest matches up and down the eastern US, back in the 1970's and 80's, everyone used brass/bronze brushes. Do not recall every seeing any other kind being used. Barrels were often bore scoped and never revealed any brush damage. Now flexing of cleaning rods in bore, even with bore guides showed bore damage. Often wiping out a land from constant cleaning with a flexing cleaning rod.
Dennis
By 1996, those cleaning methods had changed, Dennis. Yes- everyone back in the 70's used bronze brushes and even into the 80's.
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I think the solvents used in centerfire barrels to remove copper will melt a plastic brush.
So many different opinions of cleaning methods among seriously competitive shooters is why I follow the suggestions of the makers of the match barrels I use. My thinking is, I will be on the same page as the barrel maker should problems arise down the road. At least they can't blame my cleaning method for the problem.
None that I have used melt nylon brushes as that is exactly what the nylon brushes are designed for.
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I can count the number of times I have used a phosphor bronze brush in a muzzleloader on one hand. Patches and jags do the trick nicely... But to each his own.
My modern centerfire guns are a different story that I won't go into here... But for my method of cleaning they are indispensable however they are used in a careful, precise method.
That's as close to skirting forum rules as I will get on the subject.
Mike
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All my barrels are cleaned with the breech in a bucket of cool to cold water, using one patch on the rod for cleaning and 4 or 5 for drying.
No need for a brush at any time. The water and patch gets them perfectly clean.
Daryl, ever had a problem with accuracy with taking the barrel out after shooting? I'm thinking tang screw to tight or loose, pins or wedges out of wack. Just wondering
Tim
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No Tim - I have not experienced accuracy changes in any manner, in any of my guns. The 2 flinter rifles are my only guns without hooked breeches, but with pins,
and tang screws, I have not experienced any such problems. The screws are resecured identically each time.
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The old timers used a worm and hemp tow to scrub their bores.
But what did they know?
They only had to rely on their guns to feed their families and save their lives after all.
I see some of the young whippersnappers here with there bronze bore brushes and whatsits and this old cantankerous curmudgeon just shakes his weary head.
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The old timers used a worm and hemp tow to scrub their bores.
But what did they know?
They only had to rely on their guns to feed their families and save their lives after all.
I see some of the young whippersnappers here with there bronze bore brushes and whatsits and this old cantankerous curmudgeon just shakes his weary head.
You're basing that position on the notion that the 'old timers' had the choice to use tow worms or brushes. They didn't. They used tow worms because that was the only option.
The 'old timers' didn't have penicillin either... But I don't see folks saying everyone should treat an infected cut with tree bark and chewed herbs because that's what the 'old timers' used.
Now if someone is involved in a historical reenactment or portrayal, then 'period correct' should be the order of the day... But to decry an item, or those who use it, simply because our forefathers didn't have it available is a bit shortsighted.
And for the record, I have and use a tow worm... I believe Dan Furth made it for me... But I'm not going to shake my fist at someone who wants to use a jag or brush.
Mike
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The old timers used a worm and hemp tow to scrub their bores.
But what did they know?
They only had to rely on their guns to feed their families and save their lives after all.
I see some of the young whippersnappers here with there bronze bore brushes and whatsits and this old cantankerous curmudgeon just shakes his weary head.
On the other hand, they often made do with what they had — wounds that be treatable today were met with an amputation and a prayer in past eras.
IIRC a German officer at Flatbush noted that the American “marksmen” (in context I believe at least some, if not most, of those he referred to were riflemen) were excellent at moving in cover and concealing themselves, but that many of their guns were “wretched” and shot crooked. I believe he also stated they were easy to rush up on since they took a quarter of an hour to load — that might be an exaggeration but also stretching my memory, I believe the German officer in question was an officer of chasseurs and so would be familiar with rifles. That suggests to me that many American riflemen were making do with some very crusty bores.
In spite of their best efforts with what they had, they probably wouldn’t have turned down a bore brush from a generous time traveler. :D
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I don't see an issue with a brass brush in a steel barrel.
The challenge for most folks is REVERSING when it gets to the breech without getting it stuck. An old hand told me that you just give it a 1/4 twist at the bottom and it reverses easily. It does indeed.
That said, I use a nylon brush to make sure the edges of the grooves are spotless combined with cheap blue windshield washer fluid (thanks Bob) then Mr Flintlock to remove graphite (thanks Bill).
"The old timers used a worm and hemp tow to scrub their bores. But what did they know?"
They used what they had. They also had their barrels freshed out, or rebore and rifled pretty often. I expect my barrels to last a lifetime. The old guys would have used modern products if they had access to them. Also, I haven't seen an old barrel cleaned "the old way" that is not dark and pitted.
God Bless, Marc
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Prairie Dog Shooter Can you elaborate on this for me (I believe rifle barrels are most often damaged by improper use of the cleaning rods or use of an improper cleaning rod. I can tell if a person is a serious shooter or not when I see their cleaning rods.) I fear I may be one of those guys doing it all wrong. What would be the correct type of cleaning rod?
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I remember on the other forum they were arguing about this very thing.....pages of back and forth on it. I had a Jaeger almost done and polished all the metal armory bright. I took a pretty big brass brush...... 16 gauge or thereabouts and scrubbed it across a flat on the barrel, left to right vigorously for 30 or so seconds so an easy 100 times back and forth. I wiped the barrel off and couldn't find a scratch on it. This was on a Rice barrel. I use em' and will continue to after that experiment.
If you were referring to my post about scratching I did to my smoothbore, I was talking about the steel tornado brush, not bronze bristle brushes.
Details matter.
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Yep, steel brushes are a whole nother' ballgame. I bet they would do a number on the soft steel most of our barrels are made of.
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Prairie Dog Shooter Can you elaborate on this for me (I believe rifle barrels are most often damaged by improper use of the cleaning rods or use of an improper cleaning rod. I can tell if a person is a serious shooter or not when I see their cleaning rods.) I fear I may be one of those guys doing it all wrong. What would be the correct type of cleaning rod?
Not sure what Prairie Dog Shooter had in mind but the flexing of a cleaning rod over time will wipe a land out, especially one that is very thin and not kept clean of crud. It's better to use a stiff metal rod that is kept clean and a bore guide helps keep it centered.
Dennis
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Flexing causing wear is also the problem with jointed, screw-together rods that oft times loosen at one joint or another.
One piece rods need to be VERY stiff to resist ANY flexing.
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Prairie Dog Shooter Can you elaborate on this for me (I believe rifle barrels are most often damaged by improper use of the cleaning rods or use of an improper cleaning rod. I can tell if a person is a serious shooter or not when I see their cleaning rods.) I fear I may be one of those guys doing it all wrong. What would be the correct type of cleaning rod?
A three piece aluminum cleaning rod is the worst thing you can do to a rifle barrel. The edge of the joints will damage the crown. Grit will imbed into the aluminum and abrade the lands in the bore. Brass rods will also pick up grit. I use a brass rod for some muzzleloaders but I keep it clean, store it in a pvc pipe, and always use a muzzle guide/ bore protector on it.
For the "unspeakable" rifles, if you care about accuracy use a one piece stainless steel rod "pro-shot" or a coated rod "Dewey" Always use a muzzle protector / guide and a bore guide from the breach end. Brushes in my Muzzleloaders are plastic or nylon. Brushes for a breach loader go in from the breach and directly out the muzzle. Never back and forth. Remove the brush from the rod when it comes out the muzzle. Do not pull the brush back out from muzzle to breach. Bore snakes are useless in a center fire. They are OK for a rimfire and do less damage than a rod without guides.
One piece rods, muzzle and bore guides to keep the rod from flexing and rubbing the lands or the crown. Keep the rods clean. Never reverse direction with a metal bore brush inside the bore. Which is why metal brushes are not the best idea for a muzzleloader. Bore guides will save the throat of the chamber and the crown of the muzzle from wear of the rod.
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The old timers used a worm and hemp tow to scrub their bores.
But what did they know?
They only had to rely on their guns to feed their families and save their lives after all.
I see some of the young whippersnappers here with there bronze bore brushes and whatsits and this old cantankerous curmudgeon just shakes his weary head.
You're basing that position on the notion that the 'old timers' had the choice to use tow worms or brushes. They didn't. They used tow worms because that was the only option.
The 'old timers' didn't have penicillin either... But I don't see folks saying everyone should treat an infected cut with tree bark and chewed herbs because that's what the 'old timers' used.
Now if someone is involved in a historical reenactment or portrayal, then 'period correct' should be the order of the day... But to decry an item, or those who use it, simply because our forefathers didn't have it available is a bit shortsighted.
And for the record, I have and use a tow worm... I believe Dan Furth made it for me... But I'm not going to shake my fist at someone who wants to use a jag or brush.
Mike
Actually.....I have and do use tree bark and herbs for wound treatment. ;D
For those who like to use a brush , I'd suggest the nylon brushes over the brass. There's less chance of getting them stuck. Personally I don't see the need.
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I have read multiple tests of the bronze bore brush damage theory and they all came to the same conclusion, after actual testing, doesn't do damage.
There is a you tube video of someone who runs a bronze brush in his retired bench rest barrel on the end of a drill and even cants and twists the drill while he runs it. It did a wonderful job of polishing the bore, nothing else.
I chalk this up to the idea that what ever the winners do must be right and everything else is the sole blame for your second place finish. That idea runs rampant through the shooting sports. Currently, the hot debate is using CLR to remove carbon.
DAve
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Here's a tip that might save someone some anguish at a shoot.
A friend was using a bronze bore brush to clean his rifle after a match, and somehow, it became unscrewed from the rod and remained in the bottom of the bore against the breech plug. No amount of fiddling would re=thread the brush back onto the rod. He brought it to my camp and asked for help. After pondering for a while, It occurred to me that the hollow space in the middle of one of my tow worms was about the same size as the threaded end of the brush, or at least the brushes I am used to. So I put my worm on a 3/8" drill rod cleaning rod fitted with a sure grip handle, and introduced it to the stuck brush. It threaded itself down far enough onto the internal shaft of the brush to engage it well and grip it, and it pulled out without much effort.
I do not use cleaning brushes in muzzleloading barrels because of the need to reverse the bristles when I want to pull the brush back out of the bore. Whether I am right or wrong, I have a suspicion that reversing the bristles will force them, as a certain point of their reversal, to stick straight out into the steel of my perfect bore and potentially create a tiny indent times several thousand. And repeated use like that may damage the bore in the powder chamber area. I'm not willing to take the chance, even if it might me a lark. And they don't make cleaning any easier or better, IMHO>
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i don't believe any harm will come to the barrel from using brass or bronze bristle brushes. And if someone has a technique to use them without threat of a reverse bristle jam I think that's great. Personally, I don't use them in a ML, even a smoothbore. If I feel the need for more aggressive cleaning than I can get with a patch, I'll use an undersized jag and a piece of scothbrite to scrub the bore. But whatever technique works is fine.
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The bigger issue is guys putting new brass brush down a ML and not being able to pull it back out. They then pull hard and it stays in the barrel. For many shooters that is a big problem to resolve.
You got that right! Prepare, as they can twist and snap off, leaving you with it stuck down in the bore. It may require you to unbreach it to remove.
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Yep, steel brushes are a whole nother' ballgame. I bet they would do a number on the soft steel most of our barrels are made of.
I once put a 22 cal stainless brush down a British 22 RF target rifle. I got lots steel wool like shavings from the barrel steel. At first I thought is was lead. I would expect similar damage to a soft steel ML barrel, especially in a small caliber.
I have seen a modern rifle ruined with a bronze brush. It was a 1/2 MOA rifle. The owner spun the brush with an electric drill on a sectioned aluminum rod. It instantly became a 4 moa rifle.
I see videos suggesting the old power drill trick. They show the bore has no visible damage. I'd like to see how it shoots after vs before. The guys making these videos do not strike me a precision shooters.
On ml barrels I see no need for metal brushes. I have read a bunch of thread on how to get stuck brushed out of the barrel though.
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I do use a brass bore brush.
After filling the barrel with tepid water and let it sit of a few minutes I drain it then run the bore brush up and down a couple of times to free up the gunk in the barrel better before re-plugging the barrel and adding water back in once or twice more. Wet patches then dry patches and I have a clean bore. Been doing it this way since the 70's and I have never damaged a bore or had a brush stick.
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I've never had a brush stick, nor damaged the bore either. The only difference is I don't use a brush. If you think it's necessary - carry on.
Your results speak for themselves, as-do mine. different methods, same result - clean and non-damaged.
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Have always just used water, maybe some over-the-counter black powder solvent (e.g. often wipe bore with Hoppes BP solvent/lube when done shooting, before actual cleaning), but after reading this I thought I would try a brush, in my .36.
Have been using Grafs BP, which I must say is leaving a heavy residue in flash pan, and breach scraper is coming out with a good bit of crud. Anyways, on last couple cleanings, after a set and soak, breach scrape, and wet patches until "clean", I went ahead and took a few strokes with a brass borebrush, followed by another wet patch. Wow, was surprised how much black streaking I was getting after the patches were coming clean. Maybe my cleaning patches are just not tight enough on jag to get down into the very corners of the square cut rifling and the brush was getting that stuff out?
Will probably start using a bore brush routinely, right after the initial soak, just to be sure all crud is loose to swab out. Have used bore brushes my whole life on cartridge guns and I am in the camp that lifetimes of brass brush stroking will not affect steel bore.
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Taylor and I file the jag a bit, to allow a doubled thickness of Cotton Flannelette cloth for cleaning. This way, you get right to the bottom of the grooves
when pumping water into and out of the barrel (out method of cleaning). We do not remove barrels from the Kibler SMR's due to the long and fragile tang.