AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Antique Gun Collecting => Topic started by: J.M.Browning on April 12, 2022, 06:10:09 AM
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I shot this double back in 1989 afternoon lunch break bird hunting SD Ive owned several English doubles over the years although this Fred T Baker haunted me ever since my in hand experience. I have looked at several double rifles since , I was getting close to a purchase back a month . The owner of the rook rifle called about a Grizzle defense side arm for his place on the Madison river we have fished & hunted for over 50 years very close friends . After talking hand guns the Baker was discussed a deal was struck . Im very pleased to own this double & will shoot this at my range a lot .
(https://i.ibb.co/3fy9R0x/thumbnail-IMG-7634.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jVvPJLC)
(https://i.ibb.co/2P433SC/thumbnail-IMG-7635.jpg) (https://ibb.co/HY8TTCb)
(https://i.ibb.co/vVVwsJY/thumbnail-IMG-7636.jpg) (https://ibb.co/pbb0W3y)
(https://i.ibb.co/P5bg26T/thumbnail-IMG-7633.jpg) (https://ibb.co/RCMcXDh)
(https://i.ibb.co/wNcXmR4/thumbnail-IMG-7632.jpg) (https://ibb.co/pvh8Fxd)
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That is incredibly tiny and incredibly beautiful. What bore is it?
Mike
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Its no larger than 30 I did not even have Jon refresh my memory, I was so elated to finally take ownership. the gun is very small . The gun arrives I will scale it with a double box lock post a photo . The gun is very small good eye you can get a feel for size in relationship to Jon's hand . This is part of the haunting of this particular double . Also the scarcity of these double rifles of any caliber this time in gun making one with a very limited use .I will find it exciting to work up a load as to how the barrels are regulated. I will report back !
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Definitely a beauty. I should be so lucky. I bet the will shoot. #2 Rook cartridge was .376 if I recall, very similar in size to the old .38 S&W bore. If it is a .38 it would be marked as 85 bore. A .32 would be marked 142 or there abouts. It looks brand new. Looking forward to the reports!
Mike
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Thank you Mike I find your info valuable!
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Very bonny little rifle JM!
Has it an escutcheon on the wrist?
I see it has the Prince of Wales feathers on the entry pipe.
Cant read top rib. what does it say?
Would love to see lock work and mortise!!
Nice bolted locks.... Very bonny!
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Simply stunning!!
J.B.
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Very bonny little rifle JM!
Has it an escutcheon on the wrist?
I see it has the Prince of Wales feathers on the entry pipe.
Cant read top rib. what does it say?
Would love to see lock work and mortise!!
Nice bolted locks.... Very bonny!
I would also like to see the lock mechanisms.From the screw spacing I see on the plate I say it is high end work.
Bob Roller
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Baker's guns best quality English maker the company was absorbed by Westley Richards 1913 .
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Bonny indeed. Last word on the rib is London. Can't make out the others, likely an address.
The 2-leaf + standing sight is also very interesting.
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88 Fleet Street London , I will post more photos when gun arrives.
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88 Fleet Street London , I will post more photos when gun arrives.
Please DO! ;D ;D ;D
Bob Roller
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I will take detail photos try to scale with double 12 bore to give some idea of size .
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As Bob has indicated looks like top quality.
Congratulations this is a real treasure.
I wonder if any records still exist in England?
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I will be contacting Westley Richards they absorbed baker 1913
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The gun arrived today I will take many more photos my wife is on vacation with the camera the phone does not do it Justice .
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(https://i.ibb.co/23vJZWq/thumbnail-IMG-3621.jpg) (https://ibb.co/CKbLPmB)
(https://i.ibb.co/MDWVPbs/thumbnail-IMG-3620.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ynGygDX)
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(https://i.ibb.co/D1JqNT7/thumbnail-IMG-3631.jpg) (https://ibb.co/gr2nGhD)
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(https://i.ibb.co/CtsXDvS/thumbnail-IMG-3633.jpg) (https://ibb.co/RS4MdPJ)
(https://i.ibb.co/SxkV2RR/thumbnail-IMG-3623.jpg) (https://ibb.co/LPT9Mnn)
That cat is really pushing things !
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That is a very nice piece. Thanks for the additional pix. Although a bit petit, it is very nicely proportioned and very well kept. Glad it cam "home" to roost.
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Gentlemen,
As this little rifle carries the motto and feathers of the Prince of Wales, I believe that this rifle belonged to him.
Edward would have been 16 in 1857.
I can not see that anyone else would be allowed to use the motto and feathers...
I may be wrong, I was once before! LOL!
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I was wondering if that was the case. I imagine he and Prince Albert went around to Baker's and had it worked up. I would love to see the underside of the barrel to see the proof marks and, like Bob, the lock works. Also any details of the engraving. It would be fascinating to hear how it came to be in private hands. That is quite a beautiful and valuable rifle.
Mike
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Steve Davis contemporary long gun maker imported the gun back in the 80's at the time he was building his place in Tenn .
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I will be more than happy to show proof marks & remove locks & photo . Later in the week Im going to the U of M for surgery Monday all goes well I will photo & Post before next Friday .
Should I remove locks full cock or half any advice would be welcomed Thank you in advance Victor
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Half cock would probably be best. Naturally you have to clear the nipple. Sometimes, when the hammer is fully depressed, the mainspring link rests below the lower edge of the lock plate, and the wood is carved out behind the outside surface. This means, if this condition exists, that the stock can be damaged if the lock is removed when the hammer is fully down. I would be very, very surprised if a first quality gun like this rifle had this issue though.
Mike
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Thank you I may have a local guy I trust assist . Although any info is greatly appreciated!
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I have seen and made these fancy locks that when the hammer is all the way down the link is WAY below the lock plate.
Half cocked should give more that enough clearance to remove them from the stock.
It looks like botched workmanship but when the locks are on the gun the nipple height will stop the travel of the hammers.
When I stopped lock making nearly 3 years ago I was making a small "4 pin" Stanton style rook rifle lock with a "Bar in Wood" plate style.
I saw it yesterday on the back corner of my bench.
We hope the surgery goes well.I don't mind the cutting but am skeptical of the anesthesia :o.
Bob Roller
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Good chance this gun was cased once upon a time. If it no longer is, you might be able to find one that is suitable to accommodate the gun and the equipment that it must have had. Beautiful piece done as only the English can. Thank you for the photos.
Dick
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(https://i.ibb.co/3zH3rMV/thumbnail-IMG-3697.jpg) (https://ibb.co/FVtrx0c)
First shoot .
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Pretty neat to think that King Edward VII also shot that rifle.
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I have got to ask the question moderator with no offence The gun which is a top quality and English by a first class maker is not a long rifle so why is it allowed and not other none long rifle. Hope every one understands that I am not making trouble only need a answer.
Feltwad
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I have got to ask the question moderator with no offence The gun which is a top quality and English by a first class maker is not a long rifle so why is it allowed and not other none long rifle. Hope every one understands that I am not making trouble only need a answer.
Feltwad
Good question! My personal approach to finding the line of allowable firearms is to try to keep the focus on the longrifle and (believe it or not) try in my own way to not be overly strict. In this case I find double percussion shotguns to be part of the American firearms experience during the longrifle era. It would not be unusual in 1840 for a family to have a longrifle and a percussion double.
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So if I posted a Percussion Shotgun ok , being its a double rifle ? Im also fine if the moderators see fit to remove the thread .
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The American longrifle evolved from... and was constantly influenced by... other types of arms from other places. We NEED to study these other arms to understand, learn, and appreciate the longrifle. To limit knowledge is to strive for ignorance. I'm here to learn.
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So if I posted a Percussion Shotgun ok , being its a double rifle ? Im also fine if the moderators see fit to remove the thread .
I think of guns of that period as branches on a tree with a lot of forks. We don’t have a precise 3-D map of the tree but we’ve been studying it a while. Some things are clearly on the other side of the tree. Some are closer. Depending on one’s angle, some twigs may appear close together to one fella, whereas another person standing somewhere else has a different perspective. It’s not precise or perfect. The moderators have worked on lists, descriptions and so on but it’s just not that easy or important to define what is on the periphery. If someone is primarily interested in something on the periphery, they might understand it’s peripheral, and when some things in their primary area of interest get ruled as out of bounds - hopefully remember this forum is not primarily about the periphery.
That was verbose but I didn’t have time to be concise.
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I do not wish to detract from this very valuable thread, but would like to say I can not see why my old friend Feltwad caught it in the neck for posting his double percussion gun, and others do not.
Consistency is all I ask.
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The American longrifle evolved from... and was constantly influenced by... other types of arms from other places. We NEED to study these other arms to understand, learn, and appreciate the longrifle. To limit knowledge is to strive for ignorance. I'm here to learn.
Thanks to the late Lynton McKenzie and Tom Dawson I had unlimited access to some fine guns with fine locks and was able to study and to the best of my ability,copy them.Had I been denied that courtesy,I could never had made any of them and I think about 40 of the match rifle locks and 8 rook rifle sizes were made by me.I am glad I was not denied and in 1987 I made my first copy of the "4 pin"Stanton.The man that bought it for $250 was R.E.Davis who was making locks then.He said he was glad I was doing these and I told him it was my only demonstrator and he said "Demonstrate it all you want but make sure I get it before you go home."I did show it and he DID get it back.
I think the last of my "4pins" went to Canada but I'm not sure and maybe for a "rook"rifle.I am looking forward to seeing the locks on this great little sxs,Bob Roller
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Are the barrels rifled or smoothbore?
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Probably both rifled and regulated for a particular load to hopefully make "snake eyes"maybe at 50 yards.It does have rifle sights.
Bob Roller
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I’m glad you posted this little rifle. As far as the rules go, this rifle has traits that influence American longrifles and I believe belongs in this forum. It is a rifle, not a shotgun. It has sights, a cheek piece and rifling.
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I like this rifle. I like it's features... the detailed photos (always wish for more of those)... I like it's history... and I especially like the cat! Keep posting. I appreciate the folks who post the stuff I wouldn't normally have the opportunity to see out here in the mountains.
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I enjoy these guns, and Feltwad has put up some very interesting ones over the years!
Besides, American Long Rifles are getting pretty scarce around here anyway.
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The rifle is rifled .
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I enjoy these guns, and Feltwad has put up some very interesting ones over the years!
Besides, American Long Rifles are getting pretty scarce around here anyway.
Yes I agree I have entered different ignitions on these forums some that member's had never heard of nor seen ,but things now for myself have changed and I must look at a entry and think will it be logged and why bother maybe it is an infringement of me because I am from the other side of the pond we are all muzzle loaders
Feltwad