AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Gun Building => Topic started by: galudwig on May 27, 2022, 07:32:37 PM
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Check your email! Received this about 45 minutes ago:
Jim is running the first trial stocks today!
Jim has been working for months to get all the programming just perfect for the stock of the "Woodsrunner" rifle kit that is in development and we are happy to say, we are nearing the finish line.
You can reserve your kit online or call us at 330-551-5844.
We still have to get castings made and processed and do a few more odds and ends, but we feel confident that the first kits of this line will be shipping in the next few months. More details about the kit can be found by following the link below.
https://kiblerslongrifles.com/?mc_cid=2242aafb28&mc_eid=255e73d64e
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WOW looks REALLY NICE!!
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Is he making it as crooked as the original? hahahahahahahaha ;D ;D 8)
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I have been looking forward to this one since it was announced. Now the next waiting period begins!
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My wife is gonna Kill me 🤔
Anthony
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I'm on the waiting list!
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This one looks great, but I am still waiting for a Hawken copy. Hopefully soon.
Did I understand correctly from reading the website that the carving behind the tang would be CNC'd?
Once again, well done to Jim and his company.
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This is from his website.
The kit does not come carved--the photo with the carving is a custom rifle Jim made years ago that was based on the "Woodsrunner" rifle
Did I understand correctly from reading the website that the carving behind the tang would be CNC'd?
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I see the caliber range is in between the Southern Mountain and Colonial kits' ranges. So is this a lighter, slimmer build overall than the colonial?
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The specs on his site has it at nearly 2#s lighter than the colonial.
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Hi,
I was not a fan of the original rifle, although I admired it as a historical work. However, Jim turned it into an incredibly elegant and mesmerizing gun. I believe Jim is greatest designer of muzzle loading guns working today. What a beauty.
dave
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I got on the list in March. This will be my second Kibler and am already looking forward to his Fowler
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The length of pull should fit nearly anyone. The weight and balance look excellent, even ideal for that caliber range. Barrel length of a modest 39 3/4” will make for a handy yet still elegant gun. The calibers will offer versatility from deers, to coyotes, to black bears, to boars, a whole bunch of animals. The even better CNC work making it even easier to assemble is icing on the cake.
Jim and his team ought to be incredibly proud! What a winner!!
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Love the original with all its Quikeyness. Was fortunate to handle it at the CLA thanks to the owner.
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OH MY GOD! (×10)
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Looks like another winner. Glad I got on the list early.
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OH MY GOD! (×10)
Just took a look at the link. very nice rifle, should make an excellent hunting gun. Looking forward to the next six pages of Kibler worship..... ;)
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Only six..? I'm still trying to figure out the Seven pages on the grizzly caliber thingy.. Oldtravler
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OH MY GOD! (×10)
Just took a look at the link. very nice rifle, should make an excellent hunting gun. Looking forward to the next six pages of Kibler worship..... ;)
As well as the next six signups for your classes to assemble his kits...
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Can't wait to have Fletho finish one of these for me! ;D
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OH MY GOD! (×10)
Just took a look at the link. very nice rifle, should make an excellent hunting gun. Looking forward to the next six pages of Kibler worship..... ;)
As well as the next six signups for your classes to assemble his kits...
Yep. It will be nice to have something new to work on!
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Looks like it will be another big seller! I just ordered a colonial in .58 cal.. Now I am trying to decide if I should change my order over to the woodsrunner……. I really like the .58 though. Decisions…decisions…
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I am wondering what the heel drop measurement is?
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I am wondering what the heel drop measurement is?
Thanks so much, everybody! I've been busy machining prototype stocks over the weekend and it's going pretty well. Still some bugs to work out, though. I'll have more to share pretty soon.
As to the drop, it's about 3 inches to the top of the barrel. So figure maybe 3 1/8 to 3 1/4 with sights. One thing nice about this rifle is that the comb is pretty low given the drop at the heel. It lines up and points extremely well. As far as handling and shooting, I think this will be fantastic.
If you have any other questions, please ask! I'll just be sitting at the computer today doing some refining of the stock CNC program today.
All the best,
Jim
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I am wondering what the heel drop measurement is?
Thanks so much, everybody! I've been busy machining prototype stocks over the weekend and it's going pretty well. Still some bugs to work out, though. I'll have more to share pretty soon.
As to the drop, it's about 3 inches to the top of the barrel. So figure maybe 3 1/8 to 3 1/4 with sights. One thing nice about this rifle is that the comb is pretty low given the drop at the heel. It lines up and points extremely well. As far as handling and shooting, I think this will be fantastic.
If you have any other questions, please ask! I'll just be sitting at the computer today doing some refining of the stock CNC program today.
All the best,
Jim
Since you asked for questions, how difficult would it be to install double set triggers in lieu of the single trigger? I have a couple sets laying around. I know it would not be historically correct but would make target shooting easier.
Thanks
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I would like to know the breech width of the barrel. Thanks
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The breech is 1.062.
Thanks
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Davis makes a multitude of set triggers. Would any of these be an easy retrofit on the Woodsrunner rifle?
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You retro fit those triggers to just about any rifle. But I’d guess the reason the new rifle isn’t set up for Set triggers is that maybe rifles of that origin were mostly single
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All right, I talked myself into it. Seeing if I can change my colonial order over to the Woodsrunner. Might be a bit longer of a wait but I feel I would regret not getting it.
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It’s an easy task on the colonial. Simply fill the trigger plate mortise with another piece of wood and inlet the set trigger. It will be best if the trigger knives are taller, otherwise you are going to have to inlet it perfectly. They barely reach the sear. It can be done. I done done it a time or two.
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You retro fit those triggers to just about any rifle. But I’d guess the reason the new rifle isn’t set up for Set triggers is that maybe rifles of that origin were mostly single
https://images.app.goo.gl/6NiZyzBhJG2DmmG87
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I liked the SMR but snoozed an same with the colonial. But this
one really floats my boat. This one I got to have.. Oldtravler
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Here are a couple pictures of the first stock machined that has turned out decent. Actually it turned out very well. People are going to be astonished with the precision. It's a whole step up from out current SMR and Colonial offerings. We're producing this on a brand new 6 axis machine and it's capabilities are fantastic.
Another aspect I like about this new "Woodsrunner" kit is the historical correctness of it. Though not a copy, it is extremely believable when compared to the originals it's based on.
The first photo shows our Colonial stock for a size comparison. If you have any questions, just ask!
(https://i.ibb.co/nLWjMC6/Photo-Jun-01-1-50-24-PM.jpg) (https://ibb.co/gRnJZVm)
(https://i.ibb.co/CM6tQ0Q/Photo-Jun-01-1-56-24-PM.jpg) (https://ibb.co/yYpRqsq)
upload (https://imgbb.com/)
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Looks great!
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Nifty.
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Looks nice and slender!
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Looks good. Can’t wait!!
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Looks like it will be another big seller! I just ordered a colonial in .58 cal.. Now I am trying to decide if I should change my order over to the woodsrunner……. I really like the .58 though. Decisions…decisions…
I just received my Colonial in .58 and WOW...it's going to be nice! If I can just not booger it up, that is. I'd say you should avoid the painful decision and buy both.
You're welcome. :)
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Wow! That’s awesome Jim… thanks for the photos!
Anthony
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Until I saw them side by side I had no idea how slim the Woodsrunner is. The Colonial looks like a tank in comparison, or maybe I should say heavy duty.
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Looks like it will be another big seller! I just ordered a colonial in .58 cal.. Now I am trying to decide if I should change my order over to the woodsrunner……. I really like the .58 though. Decisions…decisions…
I just received my Colonial in .58 and WOW...it's going to be nice! If I can just not booger it up, that is. I'd say you should avoid the painful decision and buy both.
You're welcome. :)
I would like to but my wife will prolly kill me when she finds out I ordered the one! Although, a few months down the road she will forgive me then maybe a could order the colonial!!!
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Amazing that a machine can do that. Of course it had to be set up challenging to say the least, Well done.
Tim
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Seeing them side-by-side is a big help in visualizing the Woodsrunner. It does look much slimmer than the Colonial and looks like it will be a dandy to handle. I think it will look nice on my workbench!
Thanks for your amazing work Jim!
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Just a little heads up on the accuracy of a CNC machine. The ones bc we had at the company I worked for were accurate
to + or - two tenths of a thousands. If your not sure what that is. A human hair is about .005 thick.
Their incredible machines.. Oldtravler
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Come to our open house on June 24th and 25th and you'll be able to see this machine run. It really is amazing to see it operate!
In fact, we'll have as many machines and processes set up and running for everyone to see.
Jim
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Including the machine that goes 'Ping!'?
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Just a little heads up on the accuracy of a CNC machine. The ones bc we had at the company I worked for were accurate
to + or - two tenths of a thousands. If your not sure what that is. A human hair is about .005 thick.
Their incredible machines.. Oldtravler
Pssh, I just toured FormLogic in pittsburgh which is a SpaceX/Boeing money dump for development in modern manufacturing. They're using multi axis probing functions and forced calculation simulation software to predict flex within fixture elements to adjust toolpaths, and no more touching off cnc tools!
And they hold a 1 micron range (.00004"). Get with the times, old man! ;D
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Dave I was giving a general description of what these machines can do. Nothing else. Plus I have been retired for a very long time. So the machines have improved no doubt.
So you can keep your sarcasm to yourself...
Oldtravler
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No offense meant, oldtravelr, and no sarcasm. I'm using cnc to finish something from a manual VTL whose body dates to 1904 and it's been here that long! I'm just excited to share that enthusiasm with someone who can appreciate the work behind it.
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I hate enthusiasm. ;)
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looks really nice.
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I like the looks of this one... so I preordered, in 54. IIRC the original was .55?
Gerald
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Anyone know the dimensions of the buttplate?
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I just placed an order for a 50 cal in extra fancy maple. It will make a great Christmas project, I can’t wait!
I spent the weekend shooting my 45 and 58 Kiblers. Great guns all around. I used the SMR on our trail walk shoot and it was perfect fit for that long walk. I did double charge it by accident 125 gr of 3 F makes you sit up and pay attention to that light rifle.
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Is this considered a "YEE HAW" gun or just regular?
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Mike, if you built it then it would be a “Mega Yee Haw” rifle!
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Looks like I know what my first longrifle build will be....
Good looking rifle.
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DavidC....First off my surname is spelled "Lehto". I actually don't have any personal issues w/ Jim...like most of the ALR members, he's a good guy. My thoughts are that one learns so little from assembling his kits. Even w/ my serious case of macular degeneration, I probably could assemble one {going blind eventually}......this is not an offer.
Whether Jim's kits are a plus or a negative for the hobby of BUILDING MLers is yet to be determined....as I said before, Kibler Kits saturating the market could be harmful to the BUILDERS of 1-4 guns / year in that they might have difficulty selling their builds.....even w/ lowered prices. Some assemblers of Kibler Kits are selling them as a business which could also add to the market saturation.
These views evidently aren't popular and I know this, but only time will tell. If ALR ends up being a "kit" building website?......Fred
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Fred, I think your missing something. The kit is not designed for people who already know what they are doing. I gives someone the chance to see how a flintlock function’s in relation to all it’s parts, then they will be able to advance the skills required to build from a blank. Also, they will have handled a gun that feels like an original and knows what it should feel like. I think in the long run Kibler kits will be a big boost to muzzleloading. Just look at the new people on this website wanting to learn.
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In my view it would be sad if innovation, design, and bringing high quality new products to market was considered a negative thing.
The topic here is an announcement of a new, apparently high quality product. Please discuss the product.
Another topic addressed whether or not to have a separate forum for:
Kibler kits- decision is No
Kits in general- decision is No
Grousing for the sake of having one’s negative feelings heard really doesn’t contribute much to the forum or encourage folks new to the site or the craft.
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Rich I think your answer is spot on. I agree we don't need a special forum for kits.
The Big thing is if you don't like working with kits so what. Just do what you want. For the people who do so who cares. It's their money, their gun.
What Jim has done for the B.P. community is great. We are getting more people involved in the sport. Plus these new people are owning a very authentic gun to be proud of.
Do I think it will effect the custom gun builders. Hardly if they make a great gun. People will still be buying from them.
There is a market for custom gun makers to use the kits Jim offers. For that matter so does Chambers and others.
You basically have a blank canvas to work with. To allow for carving, engraving or more.
So what's not to like...? Oldtravler
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Living where I do, it was extremely difficult to get to see and handle "originals"
Many of the guns built by the shooters around here were typical of the 70's in that they were "contemporary" designs . The first few I built for myself were nothing like what we expect today in terms of architecture . Most had straight sided barrels, and Siler locks. After purchasing RCA 1 and 2 I got more of a sense of what the old guns were actually like and I was much happier with my progress . I purchased some Chambers kits to get more of an idea what they were supposed to look like, but I would have saved myself a lot of $ and time if there was a Kibler available back then . I think they are a real boon for anyone starting out who wants to do a build.
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Rich Pierce.....your last paragraph sounds like negative, constructive "opinions" are "verboten" on ALR?....Fred
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Rich Pierce.....your last paragraph sounds like negative, constructive "opinions" are "verboten" on ALR?....Fred
I think you made that up just now. PM sent.
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DavidC....First off my surname is spelled "Lehto". I actually don't have any personal issues w/ Jim...like most of the ALR members, he's a good guy. My thoughts are that one learns so little from assembling his kits. Even w/ my serious case of macular degeneration, I probably could assemble one {going blind eventually}......this is not an offer.
Whether Jim's kits are a plus or a negative for the hobby of BUILDING MLers is yet to be determined....as I said before, Kibler Kits saturating the market could be harmful to the BUILDERS of 1-4 guns / year in that they might have difficulty selling their builds.....even w/ lowered prices. Some assemblers of Kibler Kits are selling them as a business which could also add to the market saturation.
These views evidently aren't popular and I know this, but only time will tell. If ALR ends up being a "kit" building website?......Fred
I have a couple pieces under construction, aiming to make as many bits myself and carving from a blank — bearing in mind that I couldn’t make an even-surfaced table if I had to! The thought of making* my own simply appeals to me, even though I’m the last person who should be butchering an innocent piece of maple. Those who both want and can afford fine pieces from top makers will continue to seek them out, if that’s what appeals to them. I would guess that a significant percentage of the market for Kibler kits consists of those who would, if the option presented by a Kibler kit didn’t exist, simply do without altogether. With the Kibler kits, the draw they feel to muzzleloading is met by a fine product, so I’d say it’s good for the hobby; some will inevitably be drawn to buy a piece such as the artisan builders create. In any event, the more people drawn into the wider hobby of historically-oriented muzzleloading, the better.
*”making” in the sense that I’m assembling from parts bought and parts made — some of course dispute where the line is between “making” and “assembling” resides, which I am cognizant of.
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I'll be carving up a woods runner for my wife who remains my perpetual excuse for why I need at least two of every caliber or style, otherwise I'm surprised a smoothbore wasn't realized first but I suppose this kit offers something different with much the same resources Jim already has.
Many other kits go together with the same mix of ease and irritation and I see no reason to complain. Either Jim's customer will get bit and be a customer of others or they'll have a quality firelock to keep the past alive.
Even if Jim's grandchildren can access technology that can take models or images and convert them to programmable cam models that can run down to the finest details on brass they'll still be obviously machine made and would become nothing more than fancy Traditions rifles. I don't think that's the legacy he'll leave. He's an artist who, as a consequence of his art, has mastered the construction of framing blank canvas; another artist is not necessarily less skilled for taking advantage of that canvas and working overtop it.
And these kids must be spending that chipotle money on something. Surely you don't suggest people can't afford luxury purchases?
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I've always been a shooter first and a connoisseur of period correctness second (really 3rd or higher LOL). I've shot traditional muzzleloaders since 1975 and flint since 1980. I never forget my muzzleloading roots and still shoot percussion Thompson Centers occasionally. Heck sometimes I've had a hankering to buy me my first muzzleloader. A CVA Kentucky out of nostalgia and bring back old good memories.
I can see a professional builder and a guy that is into historical trekking wanting a rifle/musket that was made exactly like something Boone, Kenton, or Girty would carry back in the day. That is their passion. I'm okay that my Dixie TMR looks sort of like a period correct southern rifle. I'm also okay that my Kibler SMR is even closer if not correct.
Looking back, I've wasted/spent enough money on muzzleloaders over the years to buy one of the fine rifles Mr. Brooks, Mr. Chambers, or Fred builds. I wish I had taken that route and become "one" with the rifle. Sort of like Mark Baker's Moriah instead of dabbling in so many. Now I need to sell a few to buy that Woodsrunner!.................Bob
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I haven't really built a kit rifle before - one kit pistol back in about 1973 doesn't really count. So, with the nerve damage finally making it's way to my hands and arms, I am going to make myself a nice Kibler lightweight rifle with a moderately big bore. Then make a BIGGER bore telling everyone about it.
Really, I feel that Jim is doing our sport - and livelihood for many - a big favor by bringing our longrifles to the attention of people who otherwise wouldn't have thought of them. If it is anything like the Kibler's I've seen, it will draw attention like ... well, flies to honey.
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So does anyone have photos of original guns of this type?
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So does anyone have photos of original guns of this type?
David, the Woodsrunner rifle is a well-known early rifle that has been published in articles in Muzzke Blasts back in the day by Wallace Gusler and James Whisker. It has a close relative known as the “Feather rifle” which I stubbornly think looks earlier. Both are surmised to be Virginia guns from the 1770s give or take a few years.
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With Jim’s latest offerings, he has all the bases covered for me. I have been building guns since 1975 and have zero desire to go back to that tedious process. Jim Kibler kits , all the way for me.
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I built a rifle using a pattern made from the Feather Rifle. Fred Miller had the pattern back in the early 2000's. It wasd a pattern Fred Miller made from the remnants of a rifle that Reeves Goreing owned. Reeves made parts for the flintlock and foolish me I just bought the plate to use as a pattern for modifying an early Leyland lock which was fairly close but a little longer than the original.
Same basic profile as the Woodsrunner rifle.
Dennis
David, the Woodsrunner rifle is a well-known early rifle that has been published in articles in Muzzke Blasts back in the day by Wallace Gusler and James Whisker. It has a close relative known as the “Feather rifle” which I stubbornly think looks earlier. Both are surmised to be Virginia guns from the 1770s give or take a few years.
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There are several discussions of the feather rifle and the original Woodsrunner rifle. One is here https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=49261.0. It has a few pictures.
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It seems the Woodsrunner is now available??? On the Website a delivery duration if 6 month is mentioned.
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The Woodsrunner is starting to ship. I got mine on Saturday.
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I am still waiting for my Woodsrunner...will take a few month :-(
Does anyone of you have the Colonial and the Woodsrunner? If yes it would be very nice if someone could make a picture of both rifles laying beside on one picture. I still havent seen the direct comopasrisson between these rifles.
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Just got a .54 cal for a client this week. Took me all of 2 hrs to completely assemble. Beautiful, very hard piece of red maple. Lots of figure, almost too much.
Will post photos when done. Will be plagiarized carving ala JIm Kibler!
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Just got a .54 cal for a client this week. Took me all of 2 hrs to completely assemble. Beautiful, very hard piece of red maple. Lots of figure, almost too much.
Will post photos when done. Will be plagiarized carving ala JIm Kibler!
Smallpatch,
Thanks for the feedback and nice review. We appreciate it! I don't mind you using my carving design in the slightest. Can't wait to see how it finishes up for you. Your finishes are super nice.
Jim
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Thanks Jim,
Gotta say, you’re making these things too simple. Most of the work is already done. Absolutely the best locks available today. A custom rifle, at a kit price.
Would absolutely recommend these kits to any beginner. Maybe this will push some newcomers to the sport.
Thanks for what you do!
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I finally broke down and ordered this kit in 50 cal about 4 weeks ago. Twenty five years ago my Dad built a couple of TC Hawken kits that I had bought him for Christmas (45 and 54 cal). He did a great job on them. That experience resulted in my ordering a Chambers Lancaster rifle kit about twenty years ago in 58 cal. My Dad passed twenty years ago and I have both of those guns and shoot them on occasion.Five years ago Brant Selb built me a wonderfully accurate 58 cal Hawken rifle.I have read so much great stuff about Jim Kibler's outfit that I finally had to have one. I am currently practicing carving and finishing techniques on a 10 foot 1x4 of fancy maple purchased at Edensaw in Chimacum, WA. There appears to be a lot one can do to customize these guns (carving and engraving). I am looking forward to the learning experience. Now that I am retired I have plenty of time for projects like this.Thanks Jim Kibler for making this easier.
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Thanks Jim,
Gotta say, you’re making these things too simple. Most of the work is already done. Absolutely the best locks available today. A custom rifle, at a kit price.
Would absolutely recommend these kits to any beginner. Maybe this will push some newcomers to the sport.
Thanks for what you do!
Thanks Dane. I appreciate you recognizing this. Sometimes I get a bit frustrated from those who don't understand what a high quality longrifle is. That is in terms of design, construction, fit / finish, aesthetics etc. The vast majority recognize that our kits are easier to assemble than others, but often don't appreciate the other differences. So thank you.
Jim
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Today I got my shipping confirmation of my Woodsrunner.... ;D
Just a few more days....
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I got my one today, after just 7 Days from Ohio to Germany .... UPS has a great Tracking App.
Luckily Jim always sends his rifles in a very strong box.... The trip for the rife was obviusly not too easy....
But now the Colonial is not alone any more..
(https://i.ibb.co/wJZNxr6/IMG-20230525-153836.jpg) (https://ibb.co/WDNWYpK)
(https://i.ibb.co/qpzNzRS/IMG-20230525-165709.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Hq0t0rS)
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Nice work on the Colonial! Look forward to seeing the finished Woodsrunner next to it.
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I got my one today, after just 7 Days from Ohio to Germany .... UPS has a great Tracking App.
Luckily Jim always sends his rifles in a very strong box.... The trip for the rife was obviusly not too easy....
Nice to hear that UPS still works for orders from Germany. With this in mind I might get weak again an order a Woodsrunner. (Already have the SMR)
Greetings from Germany,
Christian