AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Antique Gun Collecting => Topic started by: bama on June 11, 2022, 01:06:25 AM
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Here is a little Bedford rifle that is unsigned but has similar design features. I am posting pictures of it to see what the forum thinks. Enjoy the pictures.
(https://i.ibb.co/30XmHwN/F9-A2-B819-9-C95-4-D3-E-A0-BD-CB373-E64-CD4-D.jpg) (https://ibb.co/55DhVd8)
(https://i.ibb.co/0mVpsZn/7-DEC7145-8-EAB-4-C91-9-FA1-B26-F57-BD9063.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ydBm45N)
(https://i.ibb.co/KF9yCth/1-D5-D986-B-662-B-438-C-99-F3-0-AC6-E189-BA92.jpg) (https://ibb.co/yW8sLzP)
(https://i.ibb.co/tKvcSTW/789-AB472-2-ECD-47-ED-8336-C6-D2-B393772-F.jpg) (https://ibb.co/C8Yvq3T)
(https://i.ibb.co/6XGpGCP/E74921-EB-0-D3-F-4036-AA9-D-7-F9-DF39474-B5.jpg) (https://ibb.co/9ZBfB5T)
(https://i.ibb.co/JzzrhbS/22-A5-C416-49-D9-4120-9-A97-34-F039-A78339.jpg) (https://ibb.co/BggT17Y)
(https://i.ibb.co/NpRKnBH/2-EBCA717-3182-42-A4-8-A15-38-A39608-AD0-B.jpg) (https://ibb.co/S0SB7C9)
(https://i.ibb.co/9hmPR6f/4-A36-B7-DF-B9-BF-4-B3-A-BAB9-0-DDFF942-E09-D.jpg) (https://ibb.co/FXkpG2f)
(https://i.ibb.co/QX22c9M/64-A2250-D-37-F7-471-C-9-E30-AAA83-B433-B9-C.jpg) (https://ibb.co/0QggXqr)
(https://i.ibb.co/f29q93k/30997-B7-C-4949-4-AEA-A955-058-D00-C77-DF6.jpg) (https://ibb.co/37v4vxp)
(https://i.ibb.co/jZQ9xP0/B2-D6-F125-9-BCF-4972-8-D4-D-A199140-F80-C4.jpg) (https://ibb.co/DgvP6Hc)
(https://i.ibb.co/hg9nh1L/C867-F71-C-1-C21-4-B26-AD09-FD2-F07-E7-DCCB.jpg) (https://ibb.co/sgRDkJb)
(https://i.ibb.co/09g4YpQ/C528529-E-1-C8-C-4-CC7-8086-1-E04-E944549-A.jpg) (https://ibb.co/rpC85Kv)
(https://i.ibb.co/yPMJyKX/197-FD3-C5-3-B0-C-4-DC1-BD6-B-04-BD33-C4-CBAD.jpg) (https://ibb.co/MSjLVKs)
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Jim, just a guesstimate on my part, but your gun appears to have been made by one of the Stoudenmires. There were two and both were
J. Stoudenmire. Someone here will recall their correct names. A wonderful rifle; thank you for showing it.
Dick
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Dick, I'm thinking along your lines. Maybe Stoudenour or Joseph Mills . These might be a place to start looking. I'm lacking a lot of knowledge on Bedford guns. You might check out Dietle"s website.
The architecture makes me think the maker moved to Bedford from another area Maryland ? Ohio ? Whoever he was he sure knew what he was doing. Thanks for posting it Jim.
Jim
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Jim,
after looking it in VA and comparing, I believe that is a William Defibaugh made rifle. IMO
either way a very nice piece
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Bama, that jewel has got all the bells and whistles that a great Bedford should have. It’s just a great example of what a quality Bedford rifle should be.
Congratulations , that my friend is a keeper..!
Bob
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Jim, Do you think this is an original flint gun. I think flint Bedfords are a little on the scarce side. I can't quite tell from the pics. For a Bedford gun that would make it a some what earlier gun/ maker. Just a thought. Jim
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In the "The Bedford County Rifles and Its Makers" there are 4 example with what looks like the same PB, cheek inlay engraving and side plate. Similar other than being percussion guns and they all have a curved front trigger. They attributed to Willian DeFbaugh.
Tim C.
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JDM... The wood being burned out a bit in front of the lock would indicate a conversion. It's a fine-looking gun. LP
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That's a fine rifle for sure, and has all the details a good Bedford should have!
And I agree with Louie, with burn in front of the lock, and the wood replacement above the lock, I don't think the flint works was ever part of the original equipment.
It's a nice gun and worth the 'fix'.
John
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Did anyone aside from John Amos use that engraving style on the patch box lid and lock bolt plate, especially the way the center of the engraving is shaped? The relief carving design rearward of the cheek piece was used by Amos as well.
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FWIW, the eagle engraving on the cheekpiece inlay is an extremely close copy of one attributed to Jacob Stoudenour on page 36 of "Gunsmiths of Bedford, Somerset and Fulton Counties". I'm not sure how to reconcile that fact with the patch box door engraving that I haven't been able to find on anything but John Amos rifles so far.
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Well, this rifle is enough to make one's head spin. The carving behind the cheek piece could easily be William Defibaugh or John Amos. The eagle cheekpiece inlay engraving is a NEARLY PERFECT match to one attributed to Jacob Stoudenour, down to very tiny details, but I so far, I haven't found a picture of the rifle that inlay is mounted on, to try to determine how the attribution was made: i.e., was it on a signed rifle or is it just an attribution or even a mistake? The patch box lid engraving is something I can only find on John Amos rifles. The William Defibaugh patch box lid engraving looks similar at first glance, but the main swoops CROSS in the middle of the lid to form a shield-like shape, whereas on the John Amos patch box lids, the main swoops merely converge toward each other near the center of the lid, but DO NOT CROSS.
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Ithink you guys are correct about the lock. I couldn't see very well on the cell phone. That's my excuse. I believe one of the Border family was a son in law of John Amos. Daniel ? I will take a look when I get back. Jim
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Does the lock plate have a local boss for the frizzen spring retention screw? It looks like it does in one of the photographs. By boss, I mean a local area that projects downward from the generally straight lower edge of the lock plate, in order to provide enough local material to prevent the internal screw threads in the lock plate from breaking out from the lower edge of the lock plate.
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Lannie,
it does have the local boss, but that doesn't always mean it was flint from the beginning. though it does add to the possibility it was. I have examples of such lock plates but do not believe they were every flint. I believe that the Bedford gunsmiths and probably others would make a lot of hardware pieces at a time and have a stock of them ready for when they started into making rifles. IMO
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JDM, I did the restoration on this rifle a number of years ago. The owner at that time wanted it to be a flint gun. I used a modern lock and modified it to match the mortise. I do believe that it was probably a percussion gun originally. There has been a good bit of restoration on this rifle, all well done and not all by me. The heart of the rifle is still original and even though restored it’s still a great rifle. It
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JDM
John Amos married William Border's sister, Rebecca. Dan was one of William's sons.
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Thanks onthehillbill.
Bama, I sent you a PM before I saw these posts. Just hit delite. Jim
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A surprising number of the earlier Bedford rifles may have been made in flint. A number of them have flint plates and the cock cutout in the stock. My best one is an original flint by J. Stoudenour which is nice I guess, but isn't part of the fun of a Bedford the sleek lines and the crazy percussion hammer? Jim, do you still have the hammer you took off of this one? If it is of the classic 'crazy' style, you might want to take the gun back to percussion. Just a thought. Still, a grand gun and fun to see.
Dick
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Thanks for sharing all those pics of a beautiful rifle. I just ordered the rest of the parts yesterday for my Bedford build.
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I have what I've been told is a Bedford County Rifle made by a Jacob Fry. It's was passed to me when my father passed away in 2006. It's been in the family for 3 or 4 generations.
Looking for information about it and approximate value.
Any assistance would be invaluable.
(https://i.ibb.co/L1w2FPJ/20220620-102857.jpg) (https://ibb.co/PgpfLY9)
(https://i.ibb.co/ZgGJ0dn/20220620-102904.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Sm5xzNh)
(https://i.ibb.co/dQMT35h/20220620-102914.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ZhXjwMZ)
(https://i.ibb.co/tmmGCgv/20220620-102924.jpg) (https://ibb.co/smmf3nN)
(https://i.ibb.co/NW5YSJs/20220620-102929.jpg) (https://ibb.co/p4cXyMx)
(https://i.ibb.co/LNtZ48t/20220620-102932.jpg) (https://ibb.co/phzLCxz)
(https://i.ibb.co/Zd4GFKp/20220620-102937.jpg) (https://ibb.co/4WvKXMn)
(https://i.ibb.co/hyg7r00/20220620-102946.jpg) (https://ibb.co/mGRDdpp)
(https://i.ibb.co/vH4n5wN/20220620-103012.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Ns2BhV0)
(https://i.ibb.co/zh2J85F/20220620-103016.jpg) (https://ibb.co/994twvh)
(https://i.ibb.co/rpWFWxb/20220620-103021.jpg) (https://ibb.co/NN4t491)
(https://i.ibb.co/S6h2fGw/20220620-103025.jpg) (https://ibb.co/mRLmNg5)
(https://i.ibb.co/pynTCyC/20220620-103030.jpg) (https://ibb.co/DpLF3p3)
(https://i.ibb.co/hLMgR3q/20220620-103039.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ckvyc4m)
(https://i.ibb.co/HKbJYwK/20220620-103049.jpg) (https://ibb.co/dfVh6Cf)
(https://i.ibb.co/YbBjdh0/20220620-103103.jpg) (https://ibb.co/52hcjLK)
(https://i.ibb.co/Kxx4R8h/20220620-103107.jpg) (https://ibb.co/PGGX3Vj)
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(https://i.ibb.co/tb65CxF/20220620-103126.jpg) (https://ibb.co/7GDFyRL)
(https://i.ibb.co/hYmytSc/20220620-103132.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Y0L3qxX)
(https://i.ibb.co/JznXnx1/20220620-103141.jpg) (https://ibb.co/mHJQJvj)
(https://i.ibb.co/LpxrRPf/20220620-103158.jpg) (https://ibb.co/88rbsBV)
(https://i.ibb.co/wghTPgT/20220620-103203.jpg) (https://ibb.co/mT5m2Tm)
(https://i.ibb.co/hCv3gSq/20220620-103207.jpg) (https://ibb.co/7bFsSq9)
(https://i.ibb.co/hHvvyTK/20220620-103211.jpg) (https://ibb.co/2PBBypj)
(https://i.ibb.co/yQxjfSW/20220620-103215.jpg) (https://ibb.co/sVXYmHy)
(https://i.ibb.co/9cKRTZ8/20220620-103223.jpg) (https://ibb.co/bQwpBbW)
(https://i.ibb.co/syt39c9/20220620-103236.jpg) (https://ibb.co/LnvpdBd)
(https://i.ibb.co/YQCV0TP/20220620-103253.jpg) (https://ibb.co/PjLVDzF)
(https://i.ibb.co/3sBBxKm/20220620-103613.jpg) (https://ibb.co/9vssxPH)
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Beautiful rifle.
Dennis
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Looks a lot like a Snider. He used a lot of fancy well engraved inlays like this gun has. Beautiful rifle; thank you for letting us see it.
Dick
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Looks a lot like a Snider. He used a lot of fancy well engraved inlays like this gun has. Beautiful rifle; thank you for letting us see it.
Dick
That particular rifle is pictured in the TOTW 2001 Gunsmiths of Bedford, Fulton, Huntingdon, & Somerset Counties. Page 142, Tobias Snider