AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Gun Building => Topic started by: Randall Steffy on August 12, 2008, 02:53:18 AM
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I have enjoyed immensely seeing ALR member’s muzzleloading projects and have been schooled so well along the way. So even though I tend toward shyness, and have been taught since a child “don’t toot your own horn”, I am hesitantly posting my latest build, for what it is worth. I give credit to Dave Waters for the impetus and help his book, “Building a Swivel Breech” has given me. Also, seeing Dave Price’s beauties, and talking with him about challenges specific to wenders picked me up along the way.
I started with Green Mtn. 7/8” straight , .50 cal, 38” barrels and milled them to a trim swamped profile that suited me. The lock parts are taken from an L&R Jn. Bailes. The trigger guard is from a pattern and castings of my own doing, as well as the thimbles, patch box and nose cap. Reaves supplied the butt plate. I would call it a contemporary design, leaning heaviest toward the Lancaster school, as I am a resident of Lanc., PA. The tapered ramrod will be shortened flush with the muzzle, as it extends all the way to the front swivel plate. Overall length is 54.6”, LOP 14.125”, weight 8.7 lbs., ¼” cast off, 1.6” wide butt with a 3” drop. You can see more pictures here https://ibb.co/album/iEvwAa (https://ibb.co/album/iEvwAa)
I welcome suggestions or questions, and hope you enjoyed the diversion from the stresses of your day.
Randall Steffy
(https://i.ibb.co/vstBN3g/wender10242.jpg) (https://ibb.co/YDrW5cY)
(https://i.ibb.co/JjckSY6/wender10253.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
(https://i.ibb.co/VNYSSxn/wender10332-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/g7ZTTdq)
(https://i.ibb.co/ChqycLn/wender10363.jpg) (https://ibb.co/0hkL75f)
(https://i.ibb.co/N3QRnXy/wender10403.jpg) (https://ibb.co/thkRPSJ)
(https://i.ibb.co/Bw6TdT2/wender10422.jpg) (https://ibb.co/yVkgGgF)
(https://i.ibb.co/pnGQwfz/wender10493.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
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It's a very neat and tidy rifle Randall...well laid out and most pleasing to the eye. For its length, it is amazingly light. I look forward to seeing it as it progresses towards the finish line. Thanks so much for showing us...you can be justifiably proud and satisfied.
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Hi--Very nice work---Please post more pictures as you finish the rifle
I am interested how you made the sliding trigger guard ??
Thanks Sydney
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Beautiful job!, I too would love to see a photo of the sliding trigger guard and the locking mechanism.
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i just googled "swivel breetchs"and it came up with dave waters site.his book is only $25.00.since there has been a regular showing of guys making s.bbreetchs.i am feeling the lure of this rifle and just might have to try one...
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I would personally not describe the trigger guard as "sliding", although there is a sliding motion as you release the swivel action and the moving section of the guard slides past the stationary section. I expect the following two pictures will answer some of your questions on this matter. The heart shaped spring is attached at its highest point to the rear swivel block and flexes somewhat through out its height to the point where the release portion of the guard is thread attached. I calculated that the radius for the point where the guard halves pass each other originates near the attaching screw at the top of heart spring.
R. Steffy
(https://i.ibb.co/VtMTR5P/wender10532.jpg) (https://ibb.co/wRp4Vjx)
(https://i.ibb.co/3WGxBt5/wender10582.jpg) (https://ibb.co/QnzWrs7)
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As I am in the middle of building the Waters' SB, I can surely appreciate your craftsmanship! I don't think of putting up the pics constitutes 'tooting your own horn'. Perhaps I have the wrong idea about what this forum is about, but I thought the idea was to allow the average guy to show what he's doing. If you do this for a living, then maybe it is 'tooting'. Now a question: How did you get the dovetails so precise? I cut mine with a jeweler's saw and can't quite get that degree of precision. Beautiful work though, even the inside is purty!
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Thanks for the photos they really help to wrap your mind around how the mechansim works, again beautiful work.
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Randall, can you tell me about the "U" shaped wire that goes through the ends of the detent rods? I assume it is so that the pins are withdrawn evenly, but what makes them snap back into the plate's holes?
And I agree with the others...the design and execution are excellent.
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The pair of locking pins are .187" diameter where they pass through the swivel plates, as I recall. The portion that you see extending through and beyond the heart spring is reduced in diameter to .125" creating a shoulder. The heart spring exerts its tension against that shoulder pressing the pins into the front or barrel swivel plate. Engagement is less than you may guess. The U shaped spring wire is what the heart spring/trigger guard engages to withdraw the pins. U shaped was just an easy way to make it easily removable and self retaining.
I shudder to think of creating this action with hand tools alone (files, hacksaw, etc.) and am fortunate to have a vertical mill to use. The female dovetails were cut with a small endmill, angling a small vise holding the swivel plate the correct degree. The males were cut with a dovetail milling cutter.
Thanks for your kind words of encouragement.
R. Steffy
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Thanks Randall...now I understand. And file and saw is how I shall make mine, though I have a good lathe. John Getz has made me a pair of .54 cal x 40"barrels - I shall make a rifle based on the Wm. Antes in RCA Vol. 1, but with English walnut rather than Black walnut.
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this might be a stupid question,but,how is the pins actuated???is it through the trigger guard.it looks like the t.guard is attached to the heart shaped plate,but it is also attached by a screw at the top.so how would it move backwards to pull the pins to release the barrels so you can swivel them???
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Lew,
The heart spring is just that, a spring that is flexed or bent rearward when the trigger guard, an extended lever of the heart spring, is pulled backward to release and swivel the barrels. A firm pressure with your index finger will do it. If I am still not turning the light on, just say so. I know there seems to be quite a shortage of information/photos of the originals and their guts.
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so the u-shaped spring attached to the pins keeps back pressure on the pins and keeps them engaged or locked into the front swivel plates.and when the trigger guard is pulled backward it releases the pins.
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Lew,
The U shaped music wire spring's primary operational purpose is to withdraw the pins from the front swivel plate when acted upon by the heart shaped spring. The shoulder on the locking pins, which cannot be seen, is where the heart spring exerts its tension to lock the swivel plates, a forward pressure. We may be saying the same thing...
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i am still alittle miffed at the total funtioning of this action.would you happen to have some other pics of it all broken down.i am very intriqued as to how this works and having use of a mill and lathe i am considering getting dave waters book and building this rifle.i have read where martin wetzel and simon kenton went on a hunt together and martin having a swivel rifle with him.and they werent hunting no 4 legged animals either..
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Lew,
The rifle is presently assembled. However, I won't let you hanging. I will try to get some more pics of the locking pins and forward swivel plate, which may help. Also, as you say, "all broken down".
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Hey Lew, I've got the book, if you are going to be at Lodi next week I will bring it up.
Tim C.
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hey tim,ya i will be there..would love to take a look at the book.
rsteffy....ya i would really like to see some more of the parts as to how they function...
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Here are a few pics of the swivel breech which are likely self explanitory. I hope I have encouraged some of you to broaden your building horizons or proceed with that dream. Did I get the juices flowing or turn you off?
(https://i.ibb.co/ng4w68V/wender10622.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
(https://i.ibb.co/3T4CXqz/wender10632.jpg) (https://ibb.co/NFtyhPS)
(https://i.ibb.co/tHyrghM/wender10782.jpg) (https://ibb.co/JcXJVdR)
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Nice. Very neatly done.
Dan
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very cool indeed.did you make all the parts yourself.and can you get a lock action already made up or is this something else you have to do on your own???
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I love this site. You guys amaze me with your craftsmanship and abilities. Thank you for sharing your projects. Even though projects of this magnitude are beyond the capabilities of us humble lurkers, I nevertheless enjoy looking over your talented sholders.
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Yes, yes yes! I'm turned on...great photographs and workmanship.
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How did you do the breechplugs? Water's plan suggests starting with 1" round stock, threaded and flat filed, with the 'hook' threaded into that. Looks like you went straight into the barrel.
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Lew,
David Price has complete swivel breech kits or I think he has just the action for sale. I hope this info helped you.
Steve
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Randy, That wender is realy shaping up. I went back and looked at the first picts that you sent me just to refresh my memory. It is looking great. ;D I'm sure it will shoot as good as it looks. I hope every one will go look at your progress pictures at
http://picasaweb.google.com/rsteffy/SwivelBreechFlintlock?authkey=prS-zX-PUEk
It looks like the modified hook breech concept worked well for you. It will realy be a blessing when you shoot her and need to clean her up.
I'm anxious to see the finish pics.
Dave Waters
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Randy,
Great job on the swivel breech. I too share a fascination with wenders ever since laying hands on an original back in the early seventies. I've queried every gunmaker that has ever fashioned a swivel breech mechanism hoping to sop up whatever knowledge I could obtain. And then along comes Dave Waters and David Price. Where were these guys twenty or so years ago. I first met Dave Waters about five or so years ago at Dixon's Gun Makers Fair and David Price about three years ago. I settled on a David Price "kit" for lack of a better word. He'll assemble the action on the barrels or include the wood and furniture. The nice thing about his system is that if you want another set of barrels, say, a rifled barrel over smooth bore or two smooth bores, he can assemble them to the point that when you receive them they will attach right into your stock. I'm anxious to finish my rifle as I'd like to use it this fall in deer season. I'd love to meet three deer in particular that I missed over the last forty years of hunting with a flintlock. I'd have a .54 cal surprise for them after they finished watching the pretty blue smoke blow away.
Dan
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Where does the term 'Wender' originate? See it mentioned but it doesn't seem to turn up much if you search the term.
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"Wender" comes from the german verb "zu wende" that means " to turn".
Best regards
Rolfkt
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Tenn Hills Guy,
You are seeing and interpreting the pics of my modification of the Dave Waters "modified hook breech" correctly. I did thread my custom breech plug to seat firmly on the seat or shoulder that occurs at the transition of rifling and plug threads, this being the plug's only stop. As I recall, I next milled the square's flats and reverse ramp. This is where the pair of ball-ended set screw tightens upon the plugs to pull and lock the barrels tightly to the swivel plate. I made a carefully fit box wrench to remove the square ended breechplug. Time with use and abuse will be the true test, but I expect good results from this design. I use Never-seize to keep the plug as free removing as possible. I am not sure if teflon tape is better or what else you fellows use.
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I like your method for the plug, perhaps a little more fitting effort but seems simpler-think I'll try to copy that! Like your wood work on the forestock-that looks labor intensive. To Rolf: Thanks, should have figured that out, guess that's why they also called 'em 'turn-over' guns!
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Hi,Tenn Hills Guy, Dave Waters here;
Double barrel guns can get heavy quick. The way to keep the weight down is use thinner swamped or tapered barrels. This helps with weight but creates another potential problem if you want to install a touch hole liner. Lighter barrels do not allow for enough safe thread engagement. (I ran into this in my first two swivel guns.) I solved the problem with the "modified hook breech" shown in my book. This design is actually a patent breech with a 3/8" chamber that allows for more side wall material which in turn accommodates a touch hole liner safely. Iv'e done it this way on every thing from 28 ga. shot barrel down to .25 cal. rifle. It works very well. One thing; on calibers smaller than .375 bore, make sure the chamber in the patent breech is the bore diameter or you will have difficulty pulling a patch out. I also carefully chamfer (60 deg.) both the mouth of the chamber and the lands of the rifling. This small chamfer allows the use of a patch with out hanging on a sharp shoulder.
I hope this helps. . . . ;D
Dave Waters
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Hi,Tenn Hills Guy, Dave Waters here;
Double barrel guns can get heavy quick. The way to keep the weight down is use thinner swamped or tapered barrels. This helps with weight but creates another potential problem if you want to install a touch hole liner. Lighter barrels do not allow for enough safe thread engagement. (I ran into this in my first two swivel guns.) I solved the problem with the "modified hook breech" shown in my book. This design is actually a patent breech with a 3/8" chamber that allows for more side wall material which in turn accommodates a touch hole liner safely. Iv'e done it this way on every thing from 28 ga. shot barrel down to .25 cal. rifle. It works very well. One thing; on calibers smaller than .375 bore, make sure the chamber in the patent breech is the bore diameter or you will have difficulty pulling a patch out. I also carefully chamfer (60 deg.) both the mouth of the chamber and the lands of the rifling. This small chamfer allows the use of a patch with out hanging on a sharp shoulder.
I hope this helps. . . . ;D
Dave Waters
This is why I built patent breeches for the barrels on my swivel. Being a 5/8" breech thread they have a smaller diameter chamber but this is easily cleaned with a 410 shotgun mop.
Running the liner into the threads and then cupping the breach is another option with the liner also seating against a shoulder so all threads are sealed.
Both neatly bypass the thin barrel wall problem.
Dan
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Thanks for the words of wisdom! I have built the action around the 13/16th's barrel as in the design. I've been leaning toward a .45 cal, though at first, I was thinking .32. Seemed the larger bore would lessen the weight a bit. I am just beginning to inlet the rear stock and have a bit of tweaking to do on the action. Haven't bought barrels yet so your advice comes at a good time. Its been fun building this action! They seem intimidating at first but quite simple when you get into it. Hope these posts encourage some 'watchers' to start building!
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Quite beautifully done, Randall! I ran into Dave a couple of years ago at Friendship and was immediately impressed with his book and bought one on the spot. I think I will get a couple of more conventional builds under my belt before I start to work on the swivel breech but this year I picked up the trigger guard casting from Reeves G. Keep us informed with the progress, I would also like to hear some rang reports from you! ;D
Curtis ;D
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Thanks for the words of wisdom! I have built the action around the 13/16th's barrel as in the design. I've been leaning toward a .45 cal, though at first, I was thinking .32. Seemed the larger bore would lessen the weight a bit. I am just beginning to inlet the rear stock and have a bit of tweaking to do on the action. Haven't bought barrels yet so your advice comes at a good time. Its been fun building this action! They seem intimidating at first but quite simple when you get into it. Hope these posts encourage some 'watchers' to start building!
I would be tempted to buy swamped barrels then shorten muzzle or muzzle and breech. This allows more wall thickness at the breech.
An A weight in 40 cal x 38" shortened at the breech and muzzle to 34" or so should allow the barrels to weigh little more than 7 pounds (based on TOWs catalog weights) so it should be possible to make a fairly long barreled swivel without exceeding 10.5 pounds or so.
The other option is to order custom barrels this would allow lighter barrels, as light as the barrel maker recommends anyway.
American flintlock rifles were not generally short even when double barreled. To me a swivel with barrels much under 36" starts to look "off".
Dan
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One more word on the barrel thing; I did one doing just what you said Dan. As you said, the barrels turned out just under 34" long. As far as the weight charts of TOW, the barrels didn't seem to be that heavy. For comparison, the barrels on my personal swivel breech are swamped, .45 cal. X 13/16 X 36" long. They only weigh 3# apiece, and my complete rifle only weighs 8-1/4 pounds. I wonder if TOW's weights are shipping weights? ???