AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Antique Accoutrements => Topic started by: Tanselman on September 12, 2022, 05:49:58 AM
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Last week at a local auction I picked up a small pocket-sized sundial in a tooled leather hinged case. It is fascinating in the quality and complexity of work involved... kind of like the best form of gun locks. From the writing/engraving on the back side, it appears to be German, and the name at the bottom [presumed to be the maker] is J. C Landeck; an early owner's name inside the leather case identified his location as Cincinnati, Ohio. I'm guessing devices like this were a toy of the wealthy, but simpler pocket sundials must have been carried and used at times on the frontier. I thought everyone might like to see a slightly different "frontier" accoutrement. The octagon frame is about 2.75" across the flats. I'd appreciate any comments on its age, etc., since I have no experience with these... other than I knew they existed and were made in many styles.
Shelby Gallien
(https://i.ibb.co/JHZJgSX/sundial1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/0r5bvzP)
(https://i.ibb.co/GpJkVtZ/sundial2.webp) (https://ibb.co/ZXJKhYQ)
(https://i.ibb.co/k941tJM/sundial-3.jpg) (https://ibb.co/nn7CFBR)
(https://i.ibb.co/cFcr8g9/sundial-4.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Yk7LdRS)
(https://i.ibb.co/1m4WFwP/sundial-5.jpg) (https://ibb.co/pLkFY9M)
share image (https://imgbb.com/)
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What a find! Beautiful piece, what workmanship. Thanks for posting it.
Tim
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Incredible. Thank you for sharing such nice pictures of it.
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Did Landeck work in all those cities? If so he must have been well known
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I think all the European cities had latitudes after their names [note the number after each city], to help set the sundial at different locations if traveling. Of course, That's an educated guess, not a knowledgeable response.
Shelby Gallien
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Beautiful piece!!! Does the compass still find north?
Robby
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very nice!
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Compass works correctly... if removed from case and set on level surface.
Shelby Gallien
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Thanks Shelby! I carry a modern reproduction of one in my bag, its works as it should, except for DST, Hah!
Robby
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Nice find, Shelby. You have this rare talent of making these unique finds! I really like this one. Thank you for bringing it in and for the good photographs.
Dick
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Dick,
Thanks for the kind words. Just wish I was as lucky finding a good "M. Sells" for my collection... know of any???
Shelby
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Wonderful piece for sure. Precise readings from such instruments would have depended on an understanding of magnetic declination and I wonder how many users knew this and applied an adjustment. Maybe as noted this was a rich man’s toy and it didn’t really matter, but maybe it was used by a navigator or surveyor also where it did.
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A wonderful piece Shelby! Thank you for sharing it.
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Last week at a local auction I picked up a small pocket-sized sundial in a tooled leather hinged case. It is fascinating in the quality and complexity of work involved... kind of like the best form of gun locks. From the writing/engraving on the back side, it appears to be German, and the name at the bottom [presumed to be the maker] is J. C Landeck; an early owner's name inside the leather case identified his location as Cincinnati, Ohio. I'm guessing devices like this were a toy of the wealthy, but simpler pocket sundials must have been carried and used at times on the frontier. I thought everyone might like to see a slightly different "frontier" accoutrement. The octagon frame is about 2.75" across the flats. I'd appreciate any comments on its age, etc., since I have no experience with these... other than I knew they existed and were made in many styles.
Shelby Gallien
(https://i.ibb.co/JHZJgSX/sundial1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/0r5bvzP)
(https://i.ibb.co/GpJkVtZ/sundial2.webp) (https://ibb.co/ZXJKhYQ)
(https://i.ibb.co/k941tJM/sundial-3.jpg) (https://ibb.co/nn7CFBR)
(https://i.ibb.co/cFcr8g9/sundial-4.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Yk7LdRS)
(https://i.ibb.co/1m4WFwP/sundial-5.jpg) (https://ibb.co/pLkFY9M)
share image (https://imgbb.com/)
Tanselman: google image search for "J.C. Landeck" in quotes. Brush up on your German first. Check name at top left on this cropped screen capture.
https://www.astronomie-nuernberg.de/index.php?category=sonstiges&page=Stuermer-Kunstuhr-Astronomie
(https://i.ibb.co/kQQh7Fh/0-E046-AD5-324-F-44-B5-B228-8-EB5-CB398853.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
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Corrected, name at top *left*. I forgot to say the pledge of allegiance before posting.
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To J. Heath - thank you for the lead. I googled the name, got into the web site you pulled the image from, and using the site's "translation" box was able to reasonably translate the German descriptions. I was also able to find a contact in Nuremberg in their historical astrological society [seems to be important in Nuremberg today] and have sent an e-mail asking to correspond with someone knowledgeable on these early pocket sun dials. From the available literature on the site, it appears these small, richly embellished sun dials were made on contract for very wealthy citizens/royalty in Nuremberg. It will be fun seeing what kind of response I get from Germany. Thanks for posting the lead on the maker, Johann Carl Landeck of Nuremberg.
Shelby Gallien
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To J. Heath - thank you for the lead. I googled the name, got into the web site you pulled the image from, and using the site's "translation" box was able to reasonably translate the German descriptions. I was also able to find a contact in Nuremberg in their historical astrological society [seems to be important in Nuremberg today] and have sent an e-mail asking to correspond with someone knowledgeable on these early pocket sun dials. From the available literature on the site, it appears these small, richly embellished sun dials were made on contract for very wealthy citizens/royalty in Nuremberg. It will be fun seeing what kind of response I get from Germany. Thanks for posting the lead on the maker, Johann Carl Landeck of Nuremberg.
Shelby Gallien
War nichts. If the early owner was German in Cinncinati, there's a fair chance he was a member of the schuetzen verein. There's a successor organization:
https://www.schuetzenfestcincy.com/history.html
JNH
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The name inside the sun dial's leather case is "Michael Williams" and the date is 1858. Name seems more English than German, unless it was Anglicized when they came over.
Shelby Gallien
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Search for item MI221099 at https://www.thebestthings.com/misctool.htm for a booklet that may help.
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I have corresponded several times this past week with a museum staff member in Nuremberg, Germany. He got excited about the sundial and has forwarded pictures to an expert on early scientific instruments and clocks in Nuremberg, who will know more about it. It will take at least a few days before I hear from that person. It seems the sundial is genuine, made about 1700 in Nuremberg by one of the town's best clockmakers, Johann Carl Landeck, who also designed and built astronomical instruments. But Landeck's work is rare, and no one in Germany has seen a small, hand-held pocket sundial by the man, so it will get more expert examination before I get a definitive answer. But so far, the news has been good, and the sundial has excited some people overseas.
Shelby Gallien
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What a find! And sounds like with the Nürnbergers you will advance the historical knowledge of how science and culture interacted. We often say "if this old object could talk" but you are squeezing the story out of this one.
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In case you would like to know how this pocket sundial story worked out, after a number of correspondences with experts in Nuremberg, Germany, it is one of the rarest and finest sundials/moondials known from early Nuremberg, Germany ca. 1685-1700, where many of the best early clocks, sundials, and astronomical instruments were made. In fact, its design is unique and hasn't been seen by any of the experts yet, so it has excited the people over there. If you'd like to read a more detailed article on the sundial, check it out in the blog articles on my new website, www.kentuckygunmakers.com, and while you're at it, buy yourself or a antique gun collecting friend a great Christmas present with the multi-book deal offered on "Kentucky Gunmakers 1775-1900." While I may be slightly prejudiced, I think that Kentucky's guns are some of the neatest, most attractive, and most interesting guns made in frontier America... in part because they are a melding of NC, VA, and MD longrifles.
Shelby Gallien
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Thanks for the update - fascinating stuff. And, to show up in Indiana!?
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Pierre Descomptes dit Labadie Sundial-Compass
French Pocket Compass-Sundial, 1671 (Photo courtesy of Windsor’s Community Museum)
This pocket compass-sundial, dated 1671, is silver, wood, leather, and fabric, made by Roch Blondeau, Paris, France, 4.5 cm x 5.5 cm (1-3/4 in. x 2-1/8 in.). This object was brought to the Detroit region c.1740 by Pierre Descomptes dit Labadie who came with his wife and family. He was one of the first to receive a land concession on the South shore (Windsor side) of the river in 1749. Source of information: Windsor's Community Museum.
Descomptes dit Labadie, Pierre
b. 1702. He came to Détroit c.1740 with his wife Angelia Lacelle and family. They had 8 children: Joesph Louis b. 18 Dec 1728, Anthony Louis b. 1730, Margaret b. 22 Aug 1734, Mary Joseph b. 16 Jan 1737, Margaret Angelica b. 1738, Peter b. 5 Sept 1742, Alexis b. Apr 1746, and Elizabeth b. 5 Mar 1749.
(https://i.ibb.co/W3czJtj/Sundial.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
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WISCONSIN 101/NEVILLE PUBLIC MUSEUM The Le Maire sundial compass was the mid-18th century equivalent to today’s GPS. It was found near Green Bay in 1902 by a local antiquities collector, Frank Duchateau, and recalls a time when Wisconsin was part of New France. French mariners and explorers using the Le Maire Sundial Compass depended on both their own specialized navigational expertise and maps produced by French cartographers. Many such maps were created based on explorer accounts of the waterways stretching from the Atlantic Ocean to the Mississippi River. Devices like the sundial compass were given to French officers who along with fur traders, Jesuit priests, and other settlers began arriving in the Upper Great Lakes in the mid-1600s.
(https://i.ibb.co/KFHzwC1/sundial-Fr-by-Pierre-Lemaire-c-1750-s.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)