AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: Molly on October 08, 2022, 03:30:31 AM
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The first photo is 3 shots at 25 yards as the rifle was sent up by the builder. Visually the front sight is centered on the top flat and the rear sight is also centered with a hash mark on the sight aligned with a hash mark on the barrel. Yet the 3 rounds all impacted to the right. If it was off this much at 25 yards would it be even further off at 50?
(https://i.ibb.co/VHvsBgL/008.jpg) (https://ibb.co/0BfxJCn)
The photo below is also 3 rounds at 25 yards but the front sight was moved significantly to the right and the rear sighe was moved slightly to the left. A much better group. But check out the next photo. Point of aim for both was right at the top edge of the spot (12 o'clock) and just down slightly.
(https://i.ibb.co/Pcwzs90/005.jpg) (https://ibb.co/1r8JYdj)
So one would feel the sights were in reasonable position. Now look at how far the front sight had to me moved to the right. The base of the sight on the right side is actually hanging over the edge of the barrel. You can see how far it was moved as the finish under the sight blade on the barrel is a different tone.
(https://i.ibb.co/5TqXJSb/004.jpg) (https://ibb.co/31t5Pjg)
And here is where the rear sight was. You can see the hash mark is not in alignment with the the mark on the barrel as it was when built.
(https://i.ibb.co/T8P2Nps/001.jpg) (https://ibb.co/d2kMH1R)
I (and husband) just feel something is not right about this. Visually things looked good but having to make adjustments to this degree seems odd.
In speaking to a few builders they suggested that:
1. The bore was not true.
2. The barrel is slightly bent.
So what the opinions of the experts and what do you do to correct it, if anything. BTW, this rifle was purchased in 2016 from a very well known, "award winning" builder who did say he had not fired it and it was fresh off his bench. We have shot it very little since purchase mainly because of the frustration above but with some extra time and nice weather hubby says he is going to address it and resolve the issue. Get it right it get it gone.
36 cal, 3 inch diameter "spot" target.
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Is there any chance that the rest you are using is slanted to one side or not ridged?
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I would also check to see if the underlugs are slotted and not putting the barrel in a bind.
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Molly- most likely, the barrel is either bent, or the bore swings to the left inside, then back to the center at the muzzle. This will make centered sights (as built) to shoot to the right.
It happens. BUT - that is no where near as bad as a barrel I once had - I replaced it with a new barrel.
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smylee: Shooting off the same rest as used on all other guns. I'll pay close attention next time out but hubby does not feel that is the problem.
flinch: Not sure I follow this one?? Are you saying the barrel could be in a "bind" as a result of the lugs position in the barrel channel?
We noticed something last night as it was being cleaned. The above photos represent only a small number of shots fired yesterday. This experiment has been going on for about a week with many other shots fired. An additional problem is that this gun fouls really bad. After about 3 or 4 shots the bore must be cleaned. Misfires are far to common and consequently we have pulled the ball three times this week to clear the globs of gunk. We noticed that the ball puller which has a collar to fit a 36 shows "wear" on one side as if it is dragging inside the barrel. When I say wear I really mean that one area on one side is "bright". So it seems this bright spot is dragging as it is removing the ball?? That would seem to also suggest a bad bore.
As to a replacement barrel. That sounds easy however even if one got a replacement...same maker, same profile, would it match the barrel channel?
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Just curious what amount of powder charge are you using?
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25 gr.
All shots were loaded the same.
36 cal 25 yards.
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If its fouling bad I would question patch thickness, weave and your choice of lube. What do the shot patches look like?
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I agree with Daryl. It needs to be bent to bring it to center with the sights centered. This is not that uncommon in ML barrels. Its possible it was bent at some point in shipping or handling. The outside might be straight and the bore crooked. I would pull the barrel and bend it till shoots to the centered sights.
Modern barrels are generally straightened before and maybe again after profiling. Whose barrel is it. You might send it back and they could straighten it. But a friend of mine sent one back and it was worse when he got it back.
Of if you can live with the sights off center leave it.
You might try running the powder charge up. 25 gr is a little light for a 36 in many cases. In small bores the one grain per caliber is not too far off.
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These guns a homemade! Ive got a couple that the sights are way off center of the flat to get them to hit where I wanted em to….. you’re fine, don’t sweat it.
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*are
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Austin, that's a wild opinion ???. We have probably 12 other "home made" rifles including a Kibler kit and none shoot like this. It would appear to be the consequence of a defective barrel or, much less, poor workmanship. If I miss the target I want it to be me, not the gun.
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Totally agree with Dan, Molly. The barrel needs to be bent to centre the sights. It will not take very much at all.
Does a clean bore "FEEL" smooth? This fouling buildup has me baffled. My .36, a Rice bl. fouls not at all - shooting all day without cleaning.
I find the smaller the bore, the EASIER the loading is and also the easier it is to load tightly. I use the same patches in my .36 with both the .350"
ball from an RCBS mould, as well as a .360" commercial balls I bought at Hefley one year. The load easily.
The crown is quite important. This is the crown of my .36. the "old" end of the thumb treatment turned the machined crown into a smooth one. I
seem to recall 'finishing' this one with crocus cloth, after the 320 wet/dry paper.
(https://i.ibb.co/Gth7vsS/36-Rice.jpg) (https://ibb.co/pRm2vWF)
The original barrel on this rifle was a non-identified wade land, narrow grooved barrel, that would only shoot an inch & 1/2 50 yards, thus I rebarreled it.
I used .311" and .320" balls in this barrel as well, with the same 10ounce denim patches. It also did not foul.
(https://i.ibb.co/16NFyrn/32.jpg) (https://ibb.co/C2yRCbt)
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I have never had a bent or defective barrel, Douglas, Green Mountain, Colerain, Getz, and Rice. All shot very well. I would contact the manufacturer and request a replacement barrel.
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Numerous builders readily acknowledge that, while not common, bent barrels are a reality. But they are probably not detectible until the shooting stage. A builder who proofs the gun will discover it and correct it before selling.
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These guns a homemade! Ive got a couple that the sights are way off center of the flat to get them to hit where I wanted em to….. you’re fine, don’t sweat it.
Back in the day gunsmiths would check the straightness of the bore, and regulating it was a common practice. Nowadays we assume that modern machining is more or less perfect. But deep hole drilling is subject to small errors. I don't know if many barrel makers check their barrels for straightness and locate their breechplugs so things are up and down.
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Molly, what I was thinking is the wood can shrink but the barrel can’t so if the tenons aren’t slotted enough to allow that movement it could be binding the barrel. If the barrel pins are easy to remove probably not in a bind. I have seen this bad enough to bend the barrel pins.
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OK, I follow the idea and I'll check it out tomorrow. If this rifle were a fly rod we would call it "super fine". Really slender and long. Hard to figure the wood could shrink to the extent that it would bend the barrel but I guess it could however would not such shrinkage draw it down rather than to either side?? I'll look however.
Thanks for the explanation.
But maybe taking into account the pins...it could move sideways.
The fouling is another issue but I'm only good for one problem at a time. Maybe later on the fouling.
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Numerous builders readily acknowledge that, while not common, bent barrels are a reality. But they are probably not detectible until the shooting stage. A builder who proofs the gun will discover it and correct it before selling.
L C Rice gave me the nickle tour of his end of the production of Rice barrels. This was when LC and Liston were the ones making Rice barrels. I do not know if Jason continues the practice or not but I supect he does.
LC had a huge overhear press that was positioned over the mid-section of a barrel blank that had each end positioned on vee blocks. If the blank did not meet their spec's for straightness, the screw press was used to straighten the barrel. This was done before the barrel was bored/rifled. I also remember he had a heating unit that looked like a large water heater that had a cover on top. A batch of barrels were placed upright into in this unit and heated to a certain degree in order to relieve stress them. It seems to me that LC had a wsy of verifying the bore was straight after the blank had been rifled and stress relieved but can not remember how this was done.
If after boring/rifling these blanks the barrels did not meet specs they were rejected and pulled out of production. LC gave me a 40 cal blank from the reject pile. I sent it to Bobby Hoyt and had him do a straight taper profile. It was a great shooting barrel. My friend Sam Everly (now deceased) used a barrel from LC's rejects to win a NC State match.
Dennis
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First , re the barrel shooting to the right. My .40 cal A weight barrelled rifle was put in my vehicle by a friend who was " helping" me. He laid it beside a shooting box and then shut the door. It was a compression fit , and the barrel was bent enough to shoot off the target at 26 yards ! It doesn't take much . I wouldn't blame the builder. It can happen, especially in the lighter weight barrels. Just bend it straight and carry on.
Re the fouling. Flintlock or percussion ? I'd check the relationship between the vent and the breach face. If too far forward of the face, I've seen them be prone to fouling. One friend has to use a scraper to clean the gunk [ .36 cal ] off the breach every dozen or so shots. This could also explain why you are having misfires. Using a bit more powder might help.
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bob: I'll refrain from the term "blame" however this rifle has been given kid glove care and it has exhibited the problems since day 1. It does reflect back on the builder but had he test fired it he probably would have known and probably would have corrected it. I do not think we have the capability to determine exactly where and how it is bent but maybe a local builder can so that's probably a better approach that doing it ourselves. I can deal with the fouling but I think you have hit on the most likely problem....and that's been our conclusion all along.
And did I mention that the triggers would not work properly also from day 1? That was resolved by a fellow shooter.
Barrel, triggers and fouling....but what a pretty rifle.
SO, my lesson is that looking good does not mean it shoots good.
Now, back to the barrel. If it is "straightened" what is the likely hood that it will fit back in the channel properly. If the channel were cut to fit this barrel and now it's "straightened" will it fit without further problems?
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Here is a video on fixing a bore that fowls easily.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZyRD-iutus
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We, Len and I used a square piece of maroon ScotchBrite to salvage a friend's .58 at Hefley. Her husband had it for sale because the bore was rough, one end to the other.
He was a "boiling water cleaner" which over the years had etched the bore, one end to the other. We had a sit-down and talk about this. It took a good 100 passes and 2
of the maroon "laps" to smooth the bore to my satisfaction, but it worked. We used WD40 as a friction reducer, then when done, cleaned the bore in a container of water as
normal. The next day, the lady shot the entire match without any loading problems and without having to swab the bore even once. She was so happy, she hugged me for
a considerable amount of time. Nice lady. The rifle was not replaced onto her husband's "for-sale rack".
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If I were charging people to make guns for them I would test fire the guns before shipping. IF a gun shot that far off I would have straightened the barrel. I do not think that is an acceptable amount of sight offset. We have laser bore sighters today. I would at least check and see if the sights were close to center.
IF the builder is worth his salt he will make it right.
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Molly, the barrel should fit into the stock without any issues when straightened.
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Here's my 2 cents. Shoot it at 50 yards. If it still shoots center the barrel is not bent. It has run out, and it was not breached with the run out vertical. If that is the case then you can move the rear sight more to the left so you can move the front sight more to the left. Adjust till you are shooting center again.
It seems you tried to make most of the adjustment with the front sight.
The mark at center of barrel at the rear sight is a witness Mark, so you can see how far you are moving it.
Not all builders are shooters. But really looking at how little you moved the rear sight. The barrel does not look all that far off. Seen a lot worse that shot really well.
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Molly, the barrel should fit into the stock without any issues when straightened.
Exactly. The stock will follow the barrel.
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This is good! We can easily pull the barrel and hopefully identify the bend and apply pressure to straighten. Problem solved!
(Or take it to our local builder and let him do it.)
Many thanks to all for their comments.
MAS
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Hi,
I am sorry I have lost track of the ball size you are using. If the bore size is .36 I would be using a .350 ball and a good patch about .017.
It is very hard for me to believe your barrel is bent or you have to bend it. I do agree where the barrel is pinned could cause you problems.
But first I would look at the ball size and make sure you are using soft lead.
Good luck
Michael
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Ball size is .350. Patches are probably .015 or .018. They are precut and put in a tin container, the original label on the bag was tossed. BUT it's the same ball and patch used on another 36 which shoots like it should. Balls are commercially made by Hornady.
Also, I do understand that the rear sight is only moved a very little. Yes, we can put the front back some and make the adjustment on the rear more to the left, just have not gone that route yet.
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Hi,
I think I would continue with with what you are doing and not bend the barrel. Hornaday balls shoot just fine in my opinion.
Michael
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Molly, I have encountered this problem several times in my building career (over 400 guns). I do sight in and regulate the sights of each and every gun. I regulate the sights to so the gun hits a smidge low on the target at 50 yds. This allows the owner to file a bit off the top of the front sight to achieve the sight picture they like. Shooting the gun also allows me to test general function, and tune the gun a needed.
Occasional I have encountered a bent barrel and a little tweek fixed the problem. I believe that your gun only needs a little straightening. I once encountered a barrel that I needed to bend to the point of being visable once it was inserted back into the stock. The barrel shot significantly to the right, but after bending it shot great groups, but the bend was unsightly. I ended up sectioning the barrel and found that the bore had wandered off in the center of the barrel. I sent photos to the manufacturer and they replaced the barrel. I took a new barrel out of my stock and replaced the barrel on the build, no more problems. I firmly believe no builder should deliver a gun in "unfired" condition. Everything can look beautiful and work well, but until you put it on the bags and shoot it, you are only guessing...
Ron
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Thin barrels bend easily.
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Molly, I have encountered this problem several times in my building career (over 400 guns). I do sight in and regulate the sights of each and every gun. I regulate the sights to so the gun hits a smidge low on the target at 50 yds. This allows the owner to file a bit off the top of the front sight to achieve the sight picture they like. Shooting the gun also allows me to test general function, and tune the gun a needed.
Occasional I have encountered a bent barrel and a little tweek fixed the problem. I believe that your gun only needs a little straightening. I once encountered a barrel that I needed to bend to the point of being visable once it was inserted back into the stock. The barrel shot significantly to the right, but after bending it shot great groups, but the bend was unsightly. I ended up sectioning the barrel and found that the bore had wandered off in the center of the barrel. I sent photos to the manufacturer and they replaced the barrel. I took a new barrel out of my stock and replaced the barrel on the build, no more problems. I firmly believe no builder should deliver a gun in "unfired" condition. Everything can look beautiful and work well, but until you put it on the bags and shoot it, you are only guessing...
Ron
Taylor does that as well, Ron. I usually luck out in doing some of the shooting. Get to shoot a lot of different guns that way.
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There’s a lesson that could be learned here but unfortunately it won’t be grasped!
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You might be able to check the barrel for exterior "straightness" if you have a good metal straightedge, or possibly a glass top table. Check each flat to see if you can slide a thin piece of paper between the surface and the middle of the barrel. It is tough to check the interior drift. Runout at one end could be checked with a micrometer on each flat on each end of the barrel. Bending is not hard but a little scary.
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Looking through the barrel at a light, in which straight line (window frame) causes a line down the bore, is a good method for checking straightness of the bore/barrel.
A vertical string can also be used, as in taped across a window frame, then looking at it with the barrel rested on, say the back of a chair. The string or line of window
frame will be seen as "broken" at a bend or curve.
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Before you bend the barrel, try shooting in on an overcast day. Sometimes the sunlight glinting off the sights can throw things off.
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As Daryl mentioned, I take a good deal of time to sight in and check function of the guns I build...it's the reward for the hours of bench time and I look forward to it a lot. I do not put a witness mark on the sight/barrel until the rifle is shooting perfectly in line with the bull. Because of the perfect barrels produced by today's e3xcellent barrel makers, I have only rarely had to move sights left or right to get the gun to shoot centre. But slight correction is acceptable. In your case Molly, I think I'd split the difference between your front and rear sights and learn to live with them.
I found Mike's video interesting and also recommend the use of a gentle lap like a wad of ScotchBrite on an undersized jag to polish a slightly rough bore. As in Daryl's example, a poor cleaning regime can frost a bore to the point that loading becomes a chore when it should not. Patch lube: use a lube that will soften the fouling from the previous shot all the way from the muzzle to the breech. If your patched ball rides over the fouling even once, the next shots will be progressively harder and harder to load. I was surprised at what appeared in the video to be a very lightly applied lube on the patch material he was using. But I will concede that is worked for Mike.
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I would try filing the notch in the rear sight before I tried anything else.
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BEFORE, you start bending barrels, I would put the sights back to the original locations. then start fooling with patch thickness, ball size for that cal. bigger or smaller, load change up, diff. lubes,
check rest on bench again etc...if that doesn't change for you, THEN look into bending the barrel.
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I would shoot it a few hundred rounds to let the barrel settle in. Then have a couple other people also shoot it to check for operator error.
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I think the sights should be relatively centered. I have had three barrels lately were the total sight offset required was around 1/8". IF they are way off the cheek weld is impacted. It also looks terrible.
IF spend a hundred hours making a rifle, and pay somebody over a grand for a parts set it needs to be right. I had the maker straighten one, then I figured out a safe and controlled way to do it precisely myself. Life is to short to invest money and time into a rifle that is obviously flawed. It bothers me every time I use a rifle with such an obvious defect. I would not keep it in my collection that way.
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Hi Molly
Early in my building career I built a rifle for a friend of mine from parts that he supplied. The rifle was a plain southern gun with a stock of plain hard maple. The rifle came out beautifully, architecturally it was a great looking and handling rifle. When I went to sight the rifle in the windage was way left so much there was no way to move the sights to correct it. I built a fine looking rifle with the parts I was provided, there was nothing wrong with my workmanship. I informed my friend that there was no way to make this rifle shoot point of aim without doing something to the barrel. At that point I delivered the rifle and left the decision to him how he wanted to proceed. To my knowledge he still has the rifle and has never changed out the barrel which I believe is the only solution. This was 40 + years ago.
If the builder sighted the rifle and it shot straight for him then I would say you may have a problem with your load or your shooting regiment. If he did not sight the rifle in and he guaranteed his work return the rifle to him and give him the chance resolve the problem. It he cannot resolve the problem ask for a refund. If he is a reputable builder this should not be a problem.
Everyone can make a mistake. I shoot all my rifles before shipping to be sure that they function and will hit target at 50 yards. I include the target if I shipping the rifle to my customer. The target will have the load I used to shoot the target with the. I have many target frames that are shot to pieces by people that say they know how to shoot. I have found out over the years most people think they are better shots than they actually are. Give the builder a chance to correct the problem if he can.
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The builder did not test fire it. It came straight off the bench to the CLA show about 4 years ago. There were some minor lock and trigger issues rather easily corrected but cannot recall exactly what they were. Accuracy has been bad from day 1 but we took it to be poor shooting and nothing to do with the rifle or the load. Because it did not perform to expectations it sat in the rack for the better part of the past 3 or 4 years. I'm sure the builder would have gladly addresses if if it was brought to his attention EARLY. 4 years later is just not something my husband is willing to do. I would say this builder has an excellent reputation. Award winning, yada yada yada. And there is a lesson, "good looks does not make a good gun". So here is where it is:
Not going to ask the builder to fix it 4 years later.
Not going to try to bend or replace the barrel.
WILL work with it some more as time permits (and mind is willing). Will try to set the front sight more to the center and the rear sight offset to the left. Hopefully we can get it shooting well enough to be accurate and not looking like the sights are on sideways. THEN will make a serious attempt to sell it as I am soured on it but in doing so all interested buyers will be told the full story.
Thanks to all for the comments and suggestions.
MAS
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I would try filing the notch in the rear sight before I tried anything else.
Just re-reading Pete's post, I went back and looked at the rear sight picture on page 1. The VERY tiny notch is not in the middle of the sight. If in the middle, (moved over and made large enough to see, that sight is already in the proper position and centered pretty much and the front sight is fine, not being EXACTLY in the middle - oh well.
In retrospect, I guess once the notch was moved to the middle, the rear sight would have to be drifted to the left a tich more. It does appear to be centered right now.
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I don’t think you an tell much from the rear sight pic. Can’t locate the right ear to tell if the notch is centered or not.
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Both ears show on my monitor, as-does the scooped front part and that little notch appears to favour left, not the middle.
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On mine there is a shadow that obscures the right side. Not that it makes any difference at this point.
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I can post a better picture but I think the angle and shadow do obscure the "truth". I see the notch perfectly centered.
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Well, you re closer than I am Molly. That notch would be no-go for me. Too small and fine.
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No doubt it is a small slot but it is centered. I have a photo to post later.
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I would suggest then, the barrel was bent after the witness marks were punched - or - the witness marks were punched and gun never sighted in.
Taylor "got in a rifle" to sell for a fellow, long time ago. When he/we tested it, we found it was WAY out, even at 25 yards. When Taylor asked the fellow
about it, he acknowledged the lack of zeroing but said, he had never did get it sighted in. As it was a modern "repro" it even had screw adjustable sights.
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Any news on your gun, did you get it fixed?
I'm having a similar problem on a rifle I just built, wondering if/how you solved it.
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(https://i.ibb.co/5jVLdjx/BB721-BF7-EDBF-4724-B675-ABA828-F873-EF.png) (https://ibb.co/2MBdwMY) Relax! Sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do. Front sight is over the same opposite, my old deer rifle….. shoots perfect!🤷
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(https://i.ibb.co/5jVLdjx/BB721-BF7-EDBF-4724-B675-ABA828-F873-EF.png) (https://ibb.co/2MBdwMY) Relax! Sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do. Front sight is over the same opposite, my old deer rifle….. shoots perfect!🤷
That's quite a bit of windage to the left, but of course, the longer the barrel, the more sight drifting must be done.
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I have a 42" Green Mountain barrel in a .45 Poor Boy flintlock that has sight adjustments like the post above, except the other way. Rear sight WAY to the right - front sight WAY to the left.
I shot this 5 shot group the other day at 25 yards from the bench. They are not always this good, lol. I was checking to see if I was missing the whole target with follow up shots - I never shoot that well.
The point being the barrel shoots well enough.
(https://i.ibb.co/Xx0rbTG/45-25-yards.jpg) (https://ibb.co/MkwxsLJ)
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I had a conversation with a friend of mine about this kind of problem as I've personally known of several cases. He worked as a barrel straightener when he got out of gunsmithing school and spent decades afterwards building flintlocks... He commented that sometimes guys inadvertently bend barrels while doing the inletting. Barrels are soft. Anyone doing what Wallace Gusler did in the movie (i.e., squeezing the barrel into the stock with a vice to transfer soot) is at risk of this. In those cases it may make sense to bend the barrel to correct the problem. This rather than cope with sights that are way out of kilter and that may take your cheek off the stock to obtain good sight alignment and sight picture.
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I have a 42" Green Mountain barrel in a .45 Poor Boy flintlock that has sight adjustments like the post above, except the other way. Rear sight WAY to the right - front sight WAY to the left.
I shot this 5 shot group the other day at 25 yards from the bench. They are not always this good, lol. I was checking to see if I was missing the whole target with follow up shots - I never shoot that well.
The point being the barrel shoots well enough.
(https://i.ibb.co/Xx0rbTG/45-25-yards.jpg) (https://ibb.co/MkwxsLJ)
The accuracy is spot-on-perfect, the precision is horrid. I should be bending that barrel back to where it should be. As-is, it is a miss or gut shot on a deer at 100yards - or maybe even 50yds. depending on the wobble.
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I'm aware of the difference beween precision and accuracy. After some adjustment I got it where I wanted it to shoot. I guess I was pointing out that a potentially bent barrel can shoot well enough - sorry for not being clear. This is more typical grouping for me with this rifle.
(https://i.ibb.co/5RSVrTG/45-25-center.jpg) (https://ibb.co/mc279Jb)
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I'm aware of the difference beween precision and accuracy. After some adjustment I got it where I wanted it to shoot. I guess I was pointing out that a potentially bent barrel can shoot well enough - sorry for not being clear. This is more typical grouping for me with this rifle.
(https://i.ibb.co/5RSVrTG/45-25-center.jpg) (https://ibb.co/mc279Jb)
I'm glad that you posted the last target. It shows that sighting errors can deceive you into thinking a barrel is not straight and true.
There are circumstances that call for a barrel to be bent. But in my opinion that should be a last resort, and not the first option.
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I had lost track of this post and did not see a question on the status. So, here is the scoop.
It was returned to the builder after careful consideration and a strong recommendation from several fellow shooters. The builder "aligned" the sights back to their original positions and as far as I know that's all. Did not test fire it and did not comment about finding any problems. Did not address the matter of being bent and did not indicate that it was even assessed for a bent barrel.
So, I took it out and did my own test. Same load and about the same distance, about 30 yards. Point of aim was dead on center of the 2 inch spot. The target pictured shows the results.
First shot was slightly low but about 3 inches off center. So the thing is shooting exactly as it did originally. I next positioned a small spot about 3 inches to the right and slightly low. The point of aim was at that spot. There were no adjustments to the sights. The results were much improved. There are 5 hits on the spot. One not so good but of the others, two rounds hit essentially the same hole.
Personally I do not consider this situation as acceptable and a fresh made rifle should not need sights repositioned to this degree to shoot accurately. I'll not get into the difference of "accuracy" and "precision". Suffice it to say I expect the round to land where I am aiming without radical extremely visible sight adjustment.
(https://i.ibb.co/3vtfHng/20230207-183808.jpg) (https://ibb.co/C6xJFfR)
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Obviously, the rifle shoots to the right with centred sights. Reasons for this have been given, except as well, the 'cutting' of the crown can also
cause this. If the "cut" crown is even all the way around, same height and depth, then this is not the problem. The hole in the bore, the last few
inches determines the direction of travel of the ball or bullet. If the barrel is straight, no bends, then hole inside must not be exactly in the middle
of the bore the full length of the barrel. Everything works in concert with each other and all must be right for the ball to travel true when the sights
are perfectly centered. This is quite normal with a lot of today's barrels. If "out" is it usually only an inch or so.
I have seen only one barrel that was really bad and that was a .50 cal GM barrel that was bent. This was replaced with a new barrel, and with sights
perfectly centered, so was it's shooting. Bent barrels do happen. It doesn't take much of a bend to land the ball off centre 3 to 4" at 30yards.
Good shooting, btw.
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I had lost track of this post and did not see a question on the status. So, here is the scoop.
It was returned to the builder after careful consideration and a strong recommendation from several fellow shooters. The builder "aligned" the sights back to their original positions and as far as I know that's all. Did not test fire it and did not comment about finding any problems. Did not address the matter of being bent and did not indicate that it was even assessed for a bent barrel.
So, I took it out and did my own test. Same load and about the same distance, about 30 yards. Point of aim was dead on center of the 2 inch spot. The target pictured shows the results.
First shot was slightly low but about 3 inches off center. So the thing is shooting exactly as it did originally. I next positioned a small spot about 3 inches to the right and slightly low. The point of aim was at that spot. There were no adjustments to the sights. The results were much improved. There are 5 hits on the spot. One not so good but of the others, two rounds hit essentially the same hole.
Personally I do not consider this situation as acceptable and a fresh made rifle should not need sights repositioned to this degree to shoot accurately. I'll not get into the difference of "accuracy" and "precision". Suffice it to say I expect the round to land where I am aiming without radical extremely visible sight adjustment.
(https://i.ibb.co/3vtfHng/20230207-183808.jpg) (https://ibb.co/C6xJFfR)
I looked through my copies of RCA 1& 2 to see how many rear sights Shumway had pictured. I only came up with 7. The good thing is that all of those the photos were taken directly looking down. The point is that of the seven only one appears to be centered on the barrel flat. One in particular #44, by Oerter shows witness marks like yours. Like yours the witness marks are not in alignment. Also, it is much worse than on your first post. Unfortunately, he shows no front sights photographed directly from above on any rifles in the book.
Most modern rifles now a days are scoped. But at the beginning of the modern rifle age, rifles had iron sights. Even with modern machinery the sights had to be drifted to sight them in. Williams , Redfield and others made a fortune selling adjustable sights. Drifting sights is a pain.
The only reason the witness marks on the rear sight on your barrel is so you can tell how much you have drifted them, just like in the Oerter rifle.
Why don't you try adjusting only the rear sight to make your correction. I feel that the builder thinks that it is within acceptable tolerance. I certainly seem to think so.
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In retrospect, 3" at 30yards is only 2" at 20yards, and is not THAT bad. On the other hand, it wouldn't take much of a thump to "fix" it.
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Well, if it's 2 @20, 3@30 then it's 4@40, 5@50 on out to 10@100. None of our rifles is off that bad. Just my opinion but I think the builder did not evaluate it and if he did then I take a different view of it. BUT, knowing where it shoots allows one to make adjustment to the point of aim. Of course you just need to be sure of the target distance and adjust accordingly. We have contemps made by some top builders and several made by an obscure local builder. None are off like this.
MAS