AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Antique Gun Collecting => Topic started by: Herb on October 08, 2022, 07:38:56 PM
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I just found photos of a Hawken I'd not seen before. It is in Kalispell, MT. Apparently there is a Montana Historical Society museum there, though I did not know about it when I was in Kalispell some years ago.
The top rifle is Jim Bridger's Hawken. The bottom one is the new one. You can have these photos E-mailed to yourself. Or you can order copies of these photos.
https://mhsmuseum.pastperfectonline.com/Search?search_criteria=Hawken&onlyimages=false
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Nice- tks Herb.
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This rifle has some similarities to one I photographed at Helena. OOPS- I guess it is the same one.
(https://i.ibb.co/41nzcQb/MHSLock.jpg) (https://ibb.co/7kdPH93)
(https://i.ibb.co/mbp7rjG/MHSButt.jpg) (https://ibb.co/vV98CFH)
(https://i.ibb.co/tp1kmqk/MHSHawken.jpg) (https://ibb.co/7t08Yn8)
(https://i.ibb.co/7jvGtTf/MHSCheek.jpg) (https://ibb.co/YP2tBKC)
(https://i.ibb.co/K0Qvz9N/MHSMuzzle.jpg) (https://ibb.co/M2j05R8)
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Samuel Johns was from Kalispell. He's the person who donated them to the museum in Helena. This was probably caused by the way stuff is tagged for searching. It's the same rifle that's in Helena.
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Interesting old rifle.I have one of those hammers and thought about making a low end lock with it for someone who is wanting
that kind of authenticity. Made several for Tom Dawson in the late 1960's and then forgot about them..
Bob Roller
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Not wanting to hijack the thread, but...
I've been researching this specific rifle since 2017. The museum records indicate that "it is believed" that Samuel Johns purchased the rifle from "F. G. Ellis" while on a gun buying trip to Webster Groves Missouri. I have researched the person I believe originally purchased the rifle from J & S Hawken. I can't find any chain of ownership after his death. His probate records indicate his possessions were sold after his death. Sometimes these records will indicate who purchased an item and what they paid. That's not the case here. I've researched "F. G. Ellis" but can't find a good candidate in the St. Louis area at the time Samuel Johns would have been there.
If anyone wants to help out with the people search, PM or email me. There's off-and-on discussion about some type of publication, so I don't want to post more information on the open forum.
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OK... in reply #3... I stated "donated them". I should have said "donated it". The Bridger Hawken was not owned or donated my Samuel Johns. He did donate a large number of firearms to the museum, but only one Hawken.
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Interesting old rifle.I have one of those hammers and thought about making a low end lock with it for someone who is wanting
that kind of authenticity. Made several for Tom Dawson in the late 1960's and then forgot about them..
Bob Roller
PM sent
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Just my opinion but this rifle, the “Petersen” rifle and the Atchison Rifle (the silver mounted J&S Hawken) are important examples of the evolution of the Hawken Mountain Rifle. All three, IMO were stocked by the same hand, surely Jake. I am sure the “Petersen” (from the owner at the time of Bairds first book) and Helena J&S were taken to and used in the Rockys by a “mountain man”. The later Hawkens, such as the misdated (IMO) Modena rifle, the Bridger and the Carson are all later, Army Scout or Wagon Train Guide era rifles. I believe the Bridger rifle is an off the rack rifle he bought when hired to guide an Army survey party in the 1850s.
Poster RAT has done yeoman work on research on the Helena J&S, something I lack the patience for.
Just my 2 cents.
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Note the muzzle is filed out, lands and grooves, to allow loading a snug combination.
This was also a common feature on Jaeger rifles.
(https://i.ibb.co/4VH6mYs/Hawken-Muzzle.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
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Just my opinion but this rifle, the “Petersen” rifle and the Atchison Rifle (the silver mounted J&S Hawken) are important examples of the evolution of the Hawken Mountain Rifle. All three, IMO were stocked by the same hand, surely Jake. I am sure the “Petersen” (from the owner at the time of Bairds first book) and Helena J&S were taken to and used in the Rockys by a “mountain man”. The later Hawkens, such as the misdated (IMO) Modena rifle, the Bridger and the Carson are all later, Army Scout or Wagon Train Guide era rifles. I believe the Bridger rifle is an off the rack rifle he bought when hired to guide an Army survey party in the 1850s.
Poster RAT has done yeoman work on research on the Helena J&S, something I lack the patience for.
Just my 2 cents.
I visited the Hawken Shop when Art Resell owned it and examined a silver trimmed J&S and am wondering if this was the same rifle.
The thing that surprised me was that the lock had a "fly".I removed the lock to examine it and the workmanship was above "average"*
and the silver was an overlay of thin sheet silver over the iron butt plate and trigger guard.I think this was in 1972.
Bob Roller
*Average according to the late Paul Harvey is defined as the "Best of the worst or the worst of the best". ;D ;D ;D
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This is an interesting earlier Hawken that looks to be in good condition. The, IMHO early style lock and breech area look a lot like one that Kenny Leonard had in his collection and I think is now in Chadron, NB. Several pictures of that somewhat Delux rifle are in Jim Gordons book.
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Bob... The rifle pictured here that is in the MT Historical Society museum in Helena isn't the same one you might have examined. This one is most definitely iron mounted. It has several silver inlays, but the hardware is iron, and heavily pitted. It was acquired by the museum in 1959.
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It has the features we expect in an 1830s J&S Hawken. Adapted English “shotgun” guard and patent breech of the early “conquistador helmet” style, walnut stock, and thin sheet iron buttplate. I’ve examined one that is very much like this but with a different standing breech and tang.
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Are there any contemporary Hawken builds with this style of breech bolster? I wonder how that would be built into the barrel...
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Are there any contemporary Hawken builds with this style of breech bolster? I wonder how that would be built into the barrel...
It’s a patent breech so the portion with the nipple seat is part of the breechplug. I know a builder who is working on having some early J&S breechplugs machined but the cost is similar to the cost of the barrel because of development and low numbers.
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(https://i.ibb.co/8Bqd5Fw/DSC-0800.jpg) (https://ibb.co/g7NPTs8)
(https://i.ibb.co/qkqBbkt/DSC-0824.jpg) (https://ibb.co/xJ9hVJp)
This one was hand made as was the lock. I think at one time someone had some castings made of this style breech but I have not seen any for sale any place.
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I've coined the term "ETC Rifle" to specify the rifle in the MT Historical Society collection. I'll use that term on this forum whenever this rifle is discussed.
The percussion bolster is forge welded directly to the side of the barrel. It does not have a patent breech. A simple breech plug is screwed into the barrel. The plug has a hook that mates with the standing tang. The inside face of the plug is flat, not recessed or cupped. Dan Phariss confirmed this with a bore scope.
It appeared to me that the trigger guard was fabricated. I suspect it was fabricated by the Hawken brothers.
Dan and I disagree slightly on this rifle... He believes it was stocked by Jacob Hawken. I believe it was stocked and engraved by Samuel Hawken.
I believe I know who the rifle was made for. I can confirm from his probate records that he owned a Hawken rifle at the time of his death in 1839. Unfortunately I can't confirm who the rifle went to after his death. His possessions were sold after his death. I have been unable to establish a chain of ownership from his death to 1959 when Samuel Johns donated the rifle to the MT Historical Society. That puts it in the realm of speculation... not proof.
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I get easily confused and think some of the discussion here is about 2 different rifles. This picture appears to be of a gun with a hooked breech. I suppose it’s possible that the front portion is not a patent breech, but oh what a lot of work to have it match the standing breech.
(https://i.ibb.co/mt9xNxb/DA2290-FA-AB07-41-CF-9-DD0-8-F5-BBE23-A8-A4.png) (https://ibb.co/d6Phmhj)
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That's the rifle in Herb's post. I visited that rifle on 3 different days and spent a total of about 9 hours examining it. It isn't a patent breech. It has a simple threaded plug with the rear lug shaped into a hook to mate with the standing tang. We had permission to remove the lock and barrel from the stock.
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That's the rifle in Herb's post. I visited that rifle on 3 different days and spent a total of about 9 hours examining it. It isn't a patent breech. It has a simple threaded plug with the rear lug shaped into a hook to mate with the standing tang. We had permission to remove the lock and barrel from the stock.
Thanks! Wrapping my head around it’s construction. Nice job matching everything up.
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This rifle was full of surprises. If you look close at Herb's photo you'll see the wiggle engraving on the muzzle. The museum record says the stock is mahogany... not sure about that... we all thought it was walnut. A lot of mahogany furniture shows up in the probate records for the original owner's family (if I have the owner right). The museum wasn't willing to send a sample for testing. The Tryon stamp on the lock dates to before 1836, when Tryon's son joined the company.
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I would think it would take some skill to forge weld that portion of the barrel. I'd like to know if the flash channel is straight or has any bends/angles on the interior. If it is not a straight channel, it would be interesting to know how it was drilled.
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Are there any contemporary Hawken builds with this style of breech bolster? I wonder how that would be built into the barrel...
It’s a patent breech so the portion with the nipple seat is part of the breechplug. I know a builder who is working on having some early J&S breechplugs machined but the cost is similar to the cost of the barrel because of development and low numbers.
Very low production and low interest and the breech will be costly.I made a few breeches when I helped Bill Large and used a Dremel high speed grinder and small high speed steel burrs were what I used.I don't know if I could make one today or not and I don;t remember it as a hard job but time consuming.It was part of a learning curve and I am glad it was part
of my life.I am amazed to see high grade breech and tangs for these English sporting and target rifles which are much admired but seldom copied.I have seen some of these with superb wood and workmanship and little or no engraving that could be copied by someone with stock making skills.
Bob Roller
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Has anyone taken barrel measurements, i.e. straight, taper, any hint of swamp, caliber and twist rate?
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This is my original post about this rifle. I said the barrel is "about 38 inches long".
https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=28091.msg268125#msg268125
Dphar1950 posted on www.muzzleloadingforum.com on Sep 22, 2019 about this rifle. From my notes: "Barrel is 1.029 at breech, .978 at rear sight, .944 at forend cap, .905 3" from muzzle, .908 at front sight, .917 at muzzle. Barely swamped. Underrib is tapered, 1/4" high at forend cap, about 5/16" at muzzle. I have a whole page of hand written notes about this rifle, I guess from Dphar, too much to post here.
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Has anyone found an original "Hawken" rifle with a twist other than 1-48? I'm directing this mostly to Herb only because no one else seems to know.
I hope I'm not killing another thread. :( :o ??? ::) :-[ :-\
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I ain't as smart as I am handsome. I've only checked maybe a half dozen or so original Hawkens with sized bore plugs, thus also getting the twist rate. These include the Bridger, Carson, Liver Eating Johnson and a couple other rifles at Cody and Cheyenne and Lincoln. All these were about 48 inch twist, averaging my technique.
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Thanks Herb! :)
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If the Hawken rifles I’ve seen are any indication, a lock signed by them is pretty rare. I’ve seen their guns with locks by known lock makers, and even by their competitors. But not by them. For me a rifle with a Hawken signed lock would make me look at it very closely.
Hungry Horse
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Is it just me or is there muzzle decoration similar to a star of David, only with 8 points shown in the images of the rifle coning? If so, is that a common Hawken feature? I don't think I've ever heard it mentioned. ( I see now where RAT mentioned it earlier in this thread too.)
TCA
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There are seven lands and grooves. The lands were filed down to the bottom of the grooves, back only 1/4 or 3/8", then the grooves were filed back in. This is a common muzzle treatment of original rifles, not just Hawkens. All the Hawken muzzles I have seen (mostly in Jim Gordon's book "Great Gunmakers for the Early West, Volume III") have some kind of muzzle treatment. None have crowned muzzles like most modern rifles.
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Same with the Jaeger rifle muzzles I have seen, Herb- filed out. I've also observed filing on some other rifles, English SxS's, but an old
Lancaster 4 barrel had smoothed crowns like I use. This may be due to being smooth, or having Lancaster "invisible" rifling.
(https://i.ibb.co/2369H0Q/Lancaster-4-bl-Crowns.png) (https://ibb.co/tphGFwt)
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Hey Guys,
Don't you think they used a coning tool on Hawken rifles rather than a file to remove the rifling at the muzzle, then filed the 7 grooves back in, perhaps to keep more lube on the patch where it entered the muzzle. Just wonderin. :-\
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As Herb noted, the lands were filed to the same depth grooves, then the grooves deepened with a file to look like the muzzle did originally. That was normal on Jaegers as well. Some of those are filed even further, both lands and grooves, so the muzzle is larger in both dimensions, like the mouth of a trumpet, iirc the Jaeger book's pictures Taylor has.
If a coning took was used, the rifling lands would disappear just inside the muzzle. It doesn't which shows a file was used. It does not take long to file out the lands and grooves if you wanted a muzzle to be PC on either a Hawken or as it seems an English 4 barreled gun.
If I might make a suggestion, highlighting your posts does not do anything for them. We can all read normal text.
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;) I realize that it's possible to do this with a file, but my point was that in the interest of not running the risk of screwing up the accuracy by possibly hand filing the inside of the muzzle unevenly, the same thing could be and probably was done with more precision by using a coning tool or something akin to it.
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Sorry. I’m talking about the 8 pointed star wiggle worked muzzle decoration. Not the funneled bore.
Is decoration like that normal for Hawken? I may just be seeing things but it looks decorated to me. I’ve tried to illustrate what I’m looking at below.
(https://i.ibb.co/mT7Jpnm/51689979-86-BF-47-D3-81-C1-3340384-DBA78.jpg) (https://ibb.co/NCzxR0X)
(https://i.ibb.co/jHGYy0G/083-D6342-05-F6-480-F-8547-EB3-D49-D52472.jpg) (https://ibb.co/JC2Tv62)
Thanks
TCA
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I'm seeing it, too. TCA.
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I've never seen that before.
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I think that would be hard on a sharp patch cutting knife.
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T C... The lines you drew are correct. I don't think they were going for any kind of symbolism. It's just a decoration wiggle engraved from barrel corner to barrel corner. It's easier to see in person. I might have a better picture. I'll need to check my files later when I get on my other computer (doing this from my laptop). I think I remember one other rifle with this same decoration, but I can't remember if it was also a Hawken. I'll have to check my files.
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I'm not sure if this is a better photo, but it's what I've got...
(https://i.ibb.co/NLs1pV1/Muzzle-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/556YvMY)
I still think I saw this type of muzzle decoration on another rifle, but couldn't find it in my Hawken files. It must have been on a rifle by a different maker.
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NICE OLD RIFLE---THANKS FOR SHOWING