AmericanLongRifles Forums

General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: HighUintas on October 25, 2022, 06:10:48 PM

Title: Pros and cons of steel vs silver front sight
Post by: HighUintas on October 25, 2022, 06:10:48 PM: I have two different sights I'm trying to decide between to put on my gun. A cast steel blade and a silver blade with a copper base. They are both 3/8 dovetail bases, but the copper base is actually 0.370 instead of 3/8, so I'm not sure if I can just switch between the two to see which I like better.

Anyway, in deciding which one to install in my barrel, I was hoping you old school sight shooters could give some pros and cons of each type when the gun is primarily a hunting gun but also $#*& at targets for fun.

The silver blade is awfully shiny. I can't see that being great for bright light hunting. I know people will black it with a marker in bright light, but I can't imagine putting on and removing marker a couple times a day each day I hunt from sunrise to sunset.
Title: Re: Pros and cons of steel vs silver front sight
Post by: ScottNE on October 25, 2022, 06:25:47 PM: I don’t hunt, but I do black my sights as conditions demand when target shooting. It’s really not any more of a hassle than refreshing your priming pan.

I use soot to black my sights, which wipes off easily.
Title: Re: Pros and cons of steel vs silver front sight
Post by: Mike Lyons on October 25, 2022, 06:37:37 PM: I vote silver. One of the first things I noticed when looking at guns from high end builders is that their front sights lit up like a flashlight. It’s not a big deal at all to darken it. I’ve switched to silver and never looked back. The angles of the front sight and notches for the rear is something that has lots of different opinions.
Title: Re: Pros and cons of steel vs silver front sight
Post by: smylee grouch on October 25, 2022, 07:09:56 PM: I think you could " forge " that copper base a mere 5/1000s into the dovetail undercut to try it out. I like to make mine out of .125 thick T iron and cut a slit in them and fill that with silver solder.
Title: Re: Pros and cons of steel vs silver front sight
Post by: Daryl on October 25, 2022, 08:34:27 PM: Steel, with a short 1/16" long 45 degree angle & polished on the back corner, will light up like a torch in the bush, just as will a brass or silver sight.
The short angle, if held above the flat of the rear sight and put on target will usually give a 100yard zero, from a 50 yard normal zero with level sight.
A small brass bead with 45 degree angle on the back. Any available light will light it up, just as with silver or even steel. for a hunting rifle, I would suggest
steel. You can carry an erasable felt pen in your pocket or pouch to dull-blacken the angled edge in bright light, to reduce glare is necessary. The flat black
of the erasable felt pen is easily wiped off with a finger or thumb. I ALWAYS carry one with me. So simple and easy to apply.

(https://i.ibb.co/NmZJpSZ/P4291716.jpg) (https://ibb.co/1d8PK68)
Title: Re: Pros and cons of steel vs silver front sight
Post by: Jeff Murray on October 25, 2022, 08:38:04 PM: Silver works good in the deep woods. It will cause reflection in the bright sunlight which can make lining up your sights more of a challenge, particularly when the sun is not directly overhead. Blacking a silver sight at the range works ok if you have a source of soot or lamp black. I have used an iron sight with a very small line of white inlayed in the back edge of the sight which gives me a good visual way to center the blade in the rear notch. The sight is made by drilling vertically down the back edge, inserting a very small "cylinder" of white in the drilled hole and then filing the back edge until the white shows. The more you file it the wider the white line gets. Older eyes need all the help they can get.
Title: Re: Pros and cons of steel vs silver front sight
Post by: smylee grouch on October 25, 2022, 09:19:28 PM: Jeff, that front sight construction sounds good and not that hard to do. Do you turn something white down for the cylinder? :-\
Title: Re: Pros and cons of steel vs silver front sight
Post by: Daryl on October 25, 2022, 10:19:19 PM: Quote from: Jeff Murray on October 25, 2022, 08:38:04 PM
Blacking a silver sight at the range works ok if you have a source of soot or lamp black.

Dry Erase Felt Pen does a better job than lamp black or soot as it is easier/faster to apply & removes just as easily.

The black from dry erase felt pen is as dull as soot or lamp black - it is not shiny like permanent felt pen, which is not much better than a glaring front sight.
Title: Re: Pros and cons of steel vs silver front sight
Post by: HighUintas on October 25, 2022, 10:31:46 PM: Thanks for the comments. I'll have to think about which route to go. Polishing up the steel sight seems that it would give it just as much glint as the silver, if so desired.

Daryl, that's a good point in the dry erase marker vs sharpie marker. I had wondered why one would choose a marker that runs off so easily over a more durable one. Sharpies do produce a high shine.

Regarding your filing a 45* angle on the rear of the post to use as a 100yard aim, do you only do this with a rectangular front post or can it be done on a rounded type post like below? Having a hard time picturing it on the rounded one.

(https://i.ibb.co/ncHNDZn/16510.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
Title: Re: Pros and cons of steel vs silver front sight
Post by: Chocktaw Brave on October 26, 2022, 12:29:51 AM: I’m using white fingernail polish, but I thought about putting one of those fancy fiber optic sights on. I know it’s not traditional but my eyes could sure appreciate it!
Title: Re: Pros and cons of steel vs silver front sight
Post by: D. Taylor Sapergia on October 26, 2022, 12:53:18 AM: None of the front sights on any of my rifles have that eliptical shape. I make all my own front sights using a copper base and pure silver blade and by the time I get the rifle sighted in, any hump has been carefully filed off...I file so that the top profile of the sight has a declining line back to front. I then file the back edge off so it is almost vertical, then cut the 45 degree bevel on the tip to catch light. The bevel is only as long as it is high so that it is in effect a cube which when viewed at the far end of your barrel appears to be a round ball of light. As Daryl has noted, many rifles will be dead on at 100 yards with the bevel alone over the flat top of the rear sight, assuming first the rifle is zeroed at 25 - 50 yards with the sight level and in the notch.
The sight that HU has shown is an attempt by their manufacturers, I think, to emulate the barely corn bead front sight found on many original longrifles. Of course, it isn't even close, because those barley corn sights are as wide as they are high above the barrel flat, and are in fact, just a very low bead sight.
Title: Re: Pros and cons of steel vs silver front sight
Post by: Daryl on October 26, 2022, 01:59:19 AM: Quote from: HighUintas on October 25, 2022, 10:31:46 PM
Daryl, that's a good point in the dry erase marker vs sharpie marker. I had wondered why one would choose a marker that runs off so easily over a more durable one. Sharpies do produce a high shine.

The dry erase marker will stay as long as the sight is not wiped clean. That is the beauti of it - flat black, no shine and easily removed if desired, but will stay as long as you don't wipe it.
Title: Re: Pros and cons of steel vs silver front sight
Post by: Austin on October 26, 2022, 03:32:48 AM: Im a hunter, silver is my favorite….. but my eyes are getting older, so figure that in your equation….
Title: Re: Pros and cons of steel vs silver front sight
Post by: Pukka Bundook on October 26, 2022, 04:04:53 PM: I too like silver.
Blacking was traditionally done with a piece of burning birch bark, in Nordic and Finn lands.
Title: Re: Pros and cons of steel vs silver front sight
Post by: BOB HILL on October 26, 2022, 04:47:19 PM: Silver for me too.
Bob
Title: Re: Pros and cons of steel vs silver front sight
Post by: HighUintas on October 26, 2022, 05:54:59 PM: The silver sight base is just a hair shorter than the steel sight at 0.370 (went back and looked at listed and it is actually stated to be such, not 3/8). So I think I'll give the silver one a try first and then just open up the dovetail a bit for the steel one if I don't like the shiny silver. I really like the snazzy copper base on the silver sight. I'll have to procure a dry erase marker!
Title: Re: Pros and cons of steel vs silver front sight
Post by: bluenoser on October 26, 2022, 06:34:25 PM: Would it not be better to use the principle of "always try to modify the least costly component" and adjust the sight base to fit the dovetail in the barrel?
Title: Re: Pros and cons of steel vs silver front sight
Post by: Mike Lyons on October 26, 2022, 06:37:34 PM: Sir, It is super simple to file a front sight out of any combination of metals. I have used a lot of different solders and have been using a product called stay brite silver solder for all of my soldering needs. The stuff is idiot proof and holds up well. If you find out you want a steel sight with a copper base, just make one or I'll make one and mail it to you.
Title: Re: Pros and cons of steel vs silver front sight
Post by: HighUintas on October 26, 2022, 08:56:01 PM: Quote from: bluenoser on October 26, 2022, 06:34:25 PM
Would it not be better to use the principle of "always try to modify the least costly component" and adjust the sight base to fit the dovetail in the barrel?

Quote from: Mike Lyons on October 26, 2022, 06:37:34 PM
Sir, It is super simple to file a front sight out of any combination of metals. I have used a lot of different solders and have been using a product called stay brite silver solder for all of my soldering needs. The stuff is idiot proof and holds up well. If you find out you want a steel sight with a copper base, just make one or I'll make one and mail it to you.

Ahem.... You are both very correct. I was up really late with my baby last night and my brain isn't functioning. I should probably NOT do any work on my rifle today ::) I will just file the base on the steel sight back to fit the dovetail of the copper base.

I guess it would also be very simple to make a copper base steel post sight. I was thinking the advantage of a cast steel sight would be the strength.

Anywho, I'll keep the barrel dovetail to 0.370 and modify the sights and attempt to make my own over time.
Title: Re: Pros and cons of steel vs silver front sight
Post by: Daryl on October 26, 2022, 11:40:27 PM: This sight has been on the rifle and has not moved in 36, almost 37 years. The rifle hunted for at least 1/2 of those.
(https://i.ibb.co/WKZ8RdB/Front-sight-closeup.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Hg6w9MG)

This is the front sight on Taylor's Lang rifle, made sometime around 1853.

(https://i.ibb.co/NyfRrMQ/100-7226.jpg) (https://ibb.co/2kRJSTm)
Title: Re: Pros and cons of steel vs silver front sight
Post by: Jeff Murray on October 27, 2022, 03:39:58 AM: Smylee,

Have used both Ivory and antler for the insert. I don't have a lathe, so it is all hand work. The metal around the top of the hole will shave off the extra material if you are close to the diameter and have patience tapping it in. If you start with a rectangular blade and shape after installing the insert you might have better luck.
Title: Re: Pros and cons of steel vs silver front sight
Post by: smylee grouch on October 27, 2022, 04:11:32 AM: Thanks for that tip Jeff. It will be some time before I get to that stage but it sounds doable.
Title: Re: Pros and cons of steel vs silver front sight
Post by: axman on October 27, 2022, 04:49:13 AM: Here’s a front sight I saw a few years back at Pricketts fort.
The fellow said he used factory TC sights and slit the blade with a hacksaw and put ivory or antler in the slit.
I thought it was a great looking sight.
(https://i.ibb.co/GxNZ0Nz/8306-F83-A-B89-C-4-E62-8-B07-1-FCEDBF70-C5-B.png) (https://ibb.co/ZL7QV7q)
Title: Re: Pros and cons of steel vs silver front sight
Post by: Pukka Bundook on October 27, 2022, 08:29:53 AM: warthog ivory was favoured for that kind of work axeman, as it stays white.
Title: Re: Pros and cons of steel vs silver front sight
Post by: alacran on October 27, 2022, 01:07:36 PM: This sight i made recently and it is wide and made of Mastodon ivory, maybe warthog I have both and not sure of which I used.
Not quite finished here. Slot cut in blade and ivory T- tenon epoxied in. Quite visible in low light.
(https://i.ibb.co/CQHHSJG/IMG-0718-2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/JHssSxJ)
I think it works like low tech fiber optic sight.
(https://i.ibb.co/t3FQPHQ/IMG-0718-3.jpg) (https://ibb.co/b7DQR6Q)
Title: Re: Pros and cons of steel vs silver front sight
Post by: HighUintas on October 27, 2022, 06:48:18 PM: That is very cool. I may attempt to do something like that someday.

I wonder if elk teeth would work similarly to ivory...
Title: Re: Pros and cons of steel vs silver front sight
Post by: Daryl on October 28, 2022, 05:56:48 AM: Maybe the bull's canines aren't called the Elk's Ivory's for nothing? ;)
Title: Re: Pros and cons of steel vs silver front sight
Post by: LynnC on October 28, 2022, 06:34:53 AM: Stretching a front sight base 5 thousandths is no problem at all. Put the sight blade down in the vise jaws protected by some slip of paper or card stock then a light strike on a cold chisel parallel with the front and rear of the base will easily move the sight base metal .005”.

Easier done than typed.
Title: Re: Pros and cons of steel vs silver front sight
Post by: Chocktaw Brave on October 28, 2022, 08:30:35 PM: That is pretty slick!
Title: Re: Pros and cons of steel vs silver front sight
Post by: Birddog6 on October 29, 2022, 12:30:14 AM: I use Irons sights most of the time for target. For deer hunting Iron & put a little white dot on the to rear of it so I can see it easily at dusk. Either a dot of White-Out or one of the tiny stick-on white dots they make for pistol sights.
Title: Re: Pros and cons of steel vs silver front sight
Post by: Freedom on October 31, 2022, 12:54:19 AM: Copper seems to be the easiest to see... lots of sites blades been made from Indian Head pennies.
Title: Re: Pros and cons of steel vs silver front sight
Post by: Not English on October 31, 2022, 09:48:56 AM: My preferred sight is a German silver blade. I file the top back of the site at a 45 degree angle and polish it. Below that, I file a hollow below the portion that is polished with a chain saw file. It creates a nice hollow below the polished section that does nor reflect light. I coat the hollow with a marking pen or anything that will blacken it leaving just the polished portion visible.
Title: Re: Pros and cons of steel vs silver front sight
Post by: HighUintas on October 31, 2022, 07:04:28 PM: Quote from: Not English on October 31, 2022, 09:48:56 AM
My preferred sight is a German silver blade. I file the top back of the site at a 45 degree angle and polish it. Below that, I file a hollow below the portion that is polished with a chain saw file. It creates a nice hollow below the polished section that does nor reflect light. I coat the hollow with a marking pen or anything that will blacken it leaving just the polished portion visible.

Very good idea. I elected to go with the silver blade/copper base sight. I may try out filing a hollow in the back
Title: Re: Pros and cons of steel vs silver front sight
Post by: HighUintas on November 13, 2023, 08:07:32 PM: Is it possible to have the images on page 1 restored?
**I checked and it appears the images have been removed from the photo host's server. Maybe the owners of the photos could upload them again. Dennis**

After shooting a bit, I've decided I need to fix up my front sight. As noted in one of.my last posts on this thread, I went with the silver front post. It is the typical elliptical shape that comes from TOTW or MBS.

I will cut the rear portion of the blade to be perpendicular to the barrel top flat. Then I'll file from the top point down to the front to flatten it and give it more of a triangular shape when viewed from the side. I'll also file the 45* angle on the rear that Daryl spoke of.

The last thing I want to do is to make the front post a bit finer or narrower. It is a 0.050 thick post. This is a 36" barrel and to me, it still seems a bit too thick to see what I want to see on the target when aiming. I am considering either filing the sides of the blade to narrow it to maybe half of that or 0.030ish, and I'm also considering attempting to cut a slit in the blade and insert some ivory. However, it seems that it I narrow the blade to 0.030 it would be mighty hard to get a 0.010 or so piece of ivory in there.
Title: Re: Pros and cons of steel vs silver front sight
Post by: rich pierce on November 13, 2023, 09:19:51 PM: I tried but can’t restore Daryl’s missing pictures.
Title: Re: Pros and cons of steel vs silver front sight
Post by: Taylorz1 on November 13, 2023, 11:46:54 PM: I actually like a copper blade made out of an old solid copper penny for hunting. Good compromise between visibility and glare. In also like steel slotted for a little sliver of elk tooth. Makes a white line thats easy to see with no glare issues
Title: Re: Pros and cons of steel vs silver front sight
Post by: Daryl on November 14, 2023, 12:00:17 AM: Quote from: rich pierce on November 13, 2023, 09:19:51 PM
I tried but can’t restore Daryl’s missing pictures.

Site is still having trouble with pictures.
These are the missing ones.
My .69's front sight and Taylor's 16 bore rifle's front sight that is 133years older.

(https://i.ibb.co/NmmQbBN/Front-sight-closeup.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jWWBsXw)

(https://i.ibb.co/wy7Xm9s/DSCN2163.jpg) (https://ibb.co/1ZM5WD6)
Title: Re: Pros and cons of steel vs silver front sight
Post by: HighUintas on November 14, 2023, 12:14:22 AM: Quote from: Taylorz1 on November 13, 2023, 11:46:54 PM
I actually like a copper blade made out of an old solid copper penny for hunting. Good compromise between visibility and glare. In also like steel slotted for a little sliver of elk tooth. Makes a white line thats easy to see with no glare issues

How thick of a sliver of elk tooth were you able to use? I'm wanting to try this but want it to be very thin. I'm wondering about how thin I can get it.
Title: Re: Pros and cons of steel vs silver front sight
Post by: Daryl on November 14, 2023, 05:06:44 AM: How thin you can make it, might be up to your expertise in thinning it & cutting a thin slot to glue it into.
Title: Re: Pros and cons of steel vs silver front sight
Post by: smylee grouch on November 14, 2023, 05:22:50 AM: I procured some 1/8th inch " T " iron ( .125" ) thick. With this my hand made front sight blade is a FULL .125 thick and I can taper it from bottom to top. Its solid steel so I can, once the sight is filed to the right height put a silver solder insert in it. Cut the notch, flux, and tin it with silver solder. Dress off the excess and the silver insert will never come out.
Title: Re: Pros and cons of steel vs silver front sight
Post by: Taylorz1 on November 14, 2023, 07:25:43 AM: Here is a elk tooth front sight. This one is for a sharps and I didnt make this one an old montana gunsmith named Walter Cooper did but I could take a pic of this one without opening up a safe and it give you the idea. I use a jewelers saw to start the slot then little needle files. Doesnt hVe to be an elk tooth could be bone or micarta or whatever. All the cool kids use elk teeth though.
(https://i.ibb.co/8K5QLpX/B7370728-BAE8-47-FC-8-CDE-EC94-FD731901.jpg) (https://ibb.co/SsnZ48J)

(https://i.ibb.co/6PwwcCK/0-B49-B941-86-B5-406-C-A466-2-E17-A5-DFCF43.jpg) (https://ibb.co/R0bbGwX)
Title: Re: Pros and cons of steel vs silver front sight
Post by: HighUintas on November 14, 2023, 10:15:28 AM: That's pretty slick looking! I happen to have some elk teeth... The only source of ivory, bone, etc I have on hand. I may give it a shot. I finished up my front sight remodel to be similar to what others do, which is the silver post with a vertical backside and a 45 angle filed at the top. It does seem to absolutely glow white hot with the right angle of light, but most angles it doesn't seem to glow. It may just be due to the lighting in my house. I'll take a look tomorrow afternoon if I get home before dark.
Title: Re: Pros and cons of steel vs silver front sight
Post by: Taylorz1 on November 14, 2023, 04:45:40 PM: The ivory is really easy to break when it gets thin. I break less using sanding boards to get it thin vs trying to saw it out really thin. A little super glue and some sanding dust will be invisible too ha
Title: Re: Pros and cons of steel vs silver front sight
Post by: Leatherbark on November 14, 2023, 11:41:47 PM: A cool front sight i saw one time was a steel front blade, the kind that is slanted in front. The guy drills a hole near the end of the blade straight down into the blade and inserts a snug piece of brass rod.
Then he files the face of the sight until the brass appears as a stripe in the face of the steel sight then reshapes the top. In the end it looks like one of those modern rifle sights that have a white stripe only now it's brass.

Bob
Title: Re: Pros and cons of steel vs silver front sight
Post by: Dphariss on November 15, 2023, 04:37:09 PM: The reason for brass/silver front sights. If you are hunting a dark animal, Moose, Bison, Black Bear, Gbear the front sight may actually disappear or be hard to resolve against the animal. Yes I have BTDT. So a lighter colored sight is a plus.
Title: Re: Pros and cons of steel vs silver front sight
Post by: smylee grouch on November 15, 2023, 07:48:29 PM: (https://i.ibb.co/V9XhDk2/P1010003-Copy.jpg) (https://ibb.co/XLmdpGS)
I fashioned this one out of a piece of an 1&1/4 inch brass shaft about 30 + or - years ago so its held up well. When the light dims I would buff the top of it with my thumb ( buckskin gloves ) and that would put a little shine to it so it was easier to see at twilight.
Title: Re: Pros and cons of steel vs silver front sight
Post by: HighUintas on November 15, 2023, 11:58:20 PM: That's beautiful, Smylee. I really like it.

I tested out looking at my modified sight yesterday in the evening twilight and it seemed to glow only in certain orientations to the western horizon. I would also sometimes get shine from the vertical part of the post while the angled part was dark... The experimentation continues!
Title: Re: Pros and cons of steel vs silver front sight
Post by: Daryl on November 16, 2023, 12:24:46 AM: Quote from: smylee grouch on November 15, 2023, 07:48:29 PM

(https://i.ibb.co/V9XhDk2/P1010003-Copy.jpg) (https://ibb.co/XLmdpGS)
I fashioned this one out of a piece of an 1&1/4 inch brass shaft about 30 + or - years ago so its held up well. When the light dims I would buff the top of it with my thumb ( buckskin gloves ) and that would put a little shine to it so it was easier to see at twilight.

I do the same SmyleeG. I cut narrow lines in the blades of my rear sight's leaves, and put hard silver solder in them. A rub with my thumb, on those as well as my brass bead front, brightens them up for shooting in the bush or in poor light.
The last day Taylor and I shot the postal match, my front sight was a bright bead, on the dull, raining day & helped considerably.
Title: Re: Pros and cons of steel vs silver front sight
Post by: reddogge on December 30, 2023, 01:44:17 AM: I'll throw my .02 in. I prefer brass for a front sight. I had a rifle I put an iron front sight and it disappeared in the dark woods when aiming at a deer. I like the brass for dark woods and also bright light. Never tried copper but may have to do that.
Title: Re: Pros and cons of steel vs silver front sight
Post by: Dphariss on December 30, 2023, 05:47:34 PM: For what purpose? A brass or silver sight is preferable in a hunting rifle. Unless hunting Mtn Goats.
A black front sight might be best for paper targets. Especially with a 6 o’clock hold in the white.

A bright gleam in the sun can cause issues.
Open sights are a personal thing. Its what works for person who owns the rifle and his use of it. But seeing a black sight or a hooded one on a Moose or Bison or another dark animal will show that this is a bad idea.

Now if shooting at a paper target you might need to put shaders on open sights to keep off the glare and to get the front sight dark enough to show well on paper if holding in the white or at a white aiming point.
(https://i.ibb.co/DgcHBFV/uuid-9-E9-B4106-1-E6-C-4-B8-F-A5-CB-775515-FD7447-library-1-type-1-mode-1-loc-true-cap-true.jpg) (https://ibb.co/S7Y4kgs)
Title: Re: Pros and cons of steel vs silver front sight
Post by: Daryl on December 31, 2023, 08:26:55 PM: Dan is absolutely spot-on concerning about different sights work well for different people.
Over time and it takes time AND actual shooting, to discern what sort of sights you like.

These seem to work for me.

(https://i.ibb.co/16gHfjf/Forend-Tip.jpg) (https://ibb.co/vYF2xRx)

(https://i.ibb.co/X4r8LR6/Front-sight-closeup.jpg) (https://ibb.co/7zd4CmB)

(https://i.ibb.co/gD1WLnm/P4291715.jpg) (https://ibb.co/xMvgt4X)

(https://i.ibb.co/nMFp3jf/P4291716.jpg) (https://ibb.co/60kQvFb)