AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: Panzerschwein on December 17, 2022, 02:39:24 AM
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We’ve had a discussion here about small caliber smoothbore fowling pieces being used for small game hunting in the 18th C in America. Some members here have shared references about 1/2” bore (.50 caliber) smoothbores being favored in this role during the period.
My great passion in the woods is squirrel hunting. If one were to commission such a gun, how effective do you think a .50 cal smoothbore loaded with shot would actually be in the squirrel woods? I’m thinking it’d be about like a .410? Would it be a decent choice for the task?
Just making sure it’ll be effective before investing in the build of such a gun.
Thoughts?
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I don’t know from experience but my thoughts are that it would be fine for squirrels. Most squirrel loads my daughter shots out of the 20ga are 70gr 2f Swiss with an 1 1/8oz 5/6 lead shot. I don’t know why a 50 cal smoothbore couldn’t shoot that load, slightly lower at 65 gr or even slightly higher at 75 gr. I always was told the benefit of a smaller bore is that the pattern holds tighter longer. But honestly no clue.
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Bore size has nothing to do with patterns, Gene.
A cylinder bored .410 shoots about the same pattern at all normal distances as a cylinder bored 12 gauge.
what the 12 does is give a denser pattern as there is more shot in the charge.
I would think a half inch bore would work well for squirrels, as a lot of squirrels get shot within say 25 yards, and a half inch bore firing say 5/8 to 3/4 ounce no 6 or 7 will pattern well enough at that range.
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Sounds good to me, up to perhaps 3/4oz. shot and maybe up to 60/65gr. 2F would be my end goal, or so.
Of course, starting under that and patterning would be necessary.
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My sons first shot load ( he was six )out of his 410 trade gun was at a clay pigeon at 30 yards ( he didn’t get on it soon enough) but he vaporized it with an ounce of #6’s and 40 grains of 2F. The pattern is kind of strung out, but on a sitting squirrel it would be deadly. The smaller the bore, the more they behave like a full choke.
Hungry Horse
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My 28 gauge shoots real good patterns with 40 grns of 3 f and anything from1/2 ounce to 7/8 ounces to about 23 yards.walt.
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No problems today with my .540" bore English Fowler. Left to Right crosser, ~35 yds.
Cheers,
R
(https://i.ibb.co/mN4Bht4/English-Fowler-Pheasant.jpg) (https://ibb.co/QDMcYnM)
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No problems today with my .540" bore English Fowler. Left to Right crosser, ~35 yds.
Cheers,
R
(https://i.ibb.co/mN4Bht4/English-Fowler-Pheasant.jpg) (https://ibb.co/QDMcYnM)
Somebody knows how to shoot! Nicely done.
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We’ve had a discussion here about small caliber smoothbore fowling pieces being used for small game hunting in the 18th C in America. Some members here have shared references about 1/2” bore (.50 caliber) smoothbores being favored in this role during the period.
My great passion in the woods is squirrel hunting. If one were to commission such a gun, how effective do you think a .50 cal smoothbore loaded with shot would actually be in the squirrel woods? I’m thinking it’d be about like a .410? Would it be a decent choice for the task?
Just making sure it’ll be effective before investing in the build of such a gun.
Thoughts?
44 and 50 caliber were very common rifle caliber as well.
Myself I would use a 32-40 cal rifle for Squirrels. But I hate picking shot when eating and with cyl bored guns wounding is a real possibility. Squirrels can pack a lot of lead. I shot one once that had been wounded sometime before by a guy with either 22 short to 22 long, I heard the shot. Both lungs side to side and the squirrel was setting on a limb when I head shot him. Dying but would have been crow bait had I not shot him. Surely and aberration but squirrels are tough.
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Hungry Horse,
Bore size has nothing to do with spread, unless you are talking just a few feet.
it's general boring or choke that tightens up pattern.Yes, some bore always shoot tighter than others, but this goes for all bores. there is no general rule that says small bores shoot tighter.
If interested, a copy of GT Garwood's book "Shooting facts and and fancies" will clear it up.
His works are excellent, and as a civil engineer was not the type to go off hearsay.
All the best,
Richard.
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Richard
I just bought that book off ebay. A few copies on Abe Books as well.
The author is Thomas, Gough.
Thanks for the recommendation.
Fleener
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I’ve got a wad of cash to throw at a builder to make me one of these for next squirrel season.
Need a firm answer guys. Enable me! Lol
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Anyone tell you a .50 cal won't work????
You like to squirrel hunt. Where you hunt how close can you get to them? In my woods you would go hungry with a shotgun in the squirrel woods. Unless you are deer hunting then they crawl up your leg.
Does not Kimber offer a smooth barrel?
Fleener
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Skwirl hunting is my favorite. 410 in a modern gun would be fine.
If you don't really like eating the rodents, .410 in a ML would work. Anything smaller than 28 gauge would occasionally kill a skwirl, if the range was less than 10 yards.
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Based on my past experience with a .54 smoothbore that I used most successfully [ and foolishly sold] that is what I would recommend. From squirrels to partridge, it performed wonderfully. The new owner of that gun has taken turkeys with it.
If you have your heart set on a .50, I'm sure it would work fine for squirrels . You could have the bore made in the manner of the Colerain "turkey" barrel. ie choked.
That would negate the ability of shooting round balls from it, but as a dedicated squirrel gun that wouldn't matter
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Snapper/Fleener,
Yes GT Garwood wrote under the name Gough Thomas. (That's the GT part)
I had enjoyed his writing in "The Shooting Times" for decades when still home in the UK. His other books are brilliant reading as well!
Best,
Richard.
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Years ago, I made up a .44 cal smoothbore. With it, I had bunny accuracy to about 50yards with a .433" patched round ball & using a .410 plastic wad over hard card, over powder,
broke 10 straight birds at rendezvous, winning against some 12 and 10 bore SxS's.
So - the small calibre will shoot shot, just not a lot of it. I seem to recall I used 1/2ounce of 8's. The .44 cal. might not hold enough larger shot(5's or 6's) for squirrels.
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A .45 would be closer to a .410 than would a .50. The .50 would be a step up from from a .45 and so on. I've always liked 20s and my current gun is a 20 ga. A .45 to .50 will do well with loads carefully worked up.
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As I said earlier I have no experience, but a gun builder once told me you can load a smoothbore how ever you want as long as you don’t go crazy. So if a .50 cal rifle has no problem shooting 65-75grains of powder, why would a .50 cal smoothbore. So start around 65 grains of 2f and 7/8-1 oz of shot and work yourself up a load. I bet you will find that it’s deadly for 25-30yds. You always could use some form of Skychiefs load structure.
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A .50 cal rifle, if made well, will handle a LOT more powder than 110gr.3F or 2F.
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If it were me , only a personal opinion , I would either go with a 28ga (55caliber) or a 58cal, 24gauge ..
This will make a super super slim barrel and with the proper weight .
Allen
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If it were me , only a personal opinion , I would either go with a 28ga (55caliber) or a 58cal, 24gauge ..
This will make a super super slim barrel and with the proper weight .
Allen
Thanks, Allen! I’m leaning towards a 28 gauge or .54 smoothbore barrel.
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I shot grouse back in the 70's with this rifle, a .58, using 75gr. 2F and 1 1/8ox. of shot & cardboard wads. Worked very well to about 20yards.
(https://i.ibb.co/74DXc5V/58-in-recoil.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jRYTK2G)
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I have downed a lot of squirrels in my years. Never one with a shotgun/fowler. I'd want a small bore rifle with the best barrel rifling I could find. There is a Green Mountain swamped .40 in a tube here to be made into a squirrel rifle some day. When I think squirrel, I think precision. That said, I dated a girl whose mom said, "Oh you are quite sporting using a rifle. I use a 12 gauge." :-)
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I have downed a lot of squirrels in my years. Never one with a shotgun/fowler. I'd want a small bore rifle with the best barrel rifling I could find. There is a Green Mountain swamped .40 in a tube here to be made into a squirrel rifle some day. When I think squirrel, I think precision. That said, I dated a girl whose mom said, "Oh you are quite sporting using a rifle. I use a 12 gauge." :-)
12 gauge for squirrel seems a bit too much wouldn’t you say?? Lol.
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12 gauge for squirrel seems a bit too much wouldn’t you say?? Lol.
Some people just use what they've got.
I shot one with the .69, once. 482gr. round ball. Worked.
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I have downed a lot of squirrels in my years. Never one with a shotgun/fowler. I'd want a small bore rifle with the best barrel rifling I could find. There is a Green Mountain swamped .40 in a tube here to be made into a squirrel rifle some day. When I think squirrel, I think precision. That said, I dated a girl whose mom said, "Oh you are quite sporting using a rifle. I use a 12 gauge." :-)
12 gauge for squirrel seems a bit too much wouldn’t you say?? Lol.
In a smoothbore, gauge means little. It’s the shot load that counts. A one ounce load in a .54 smoothbore and a one ounce load in an 8 gauge is the same load. It’s the same load if it’s in a .40 smoothbore. Or a .32 smoothbore.
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I have downed a lot of squirrels in my years. Never one with a shotgun/fowler. I'd want a small bore rifle with the best barrel rifling I could find. There is a Green Mountain swamped .40 in a tube here to be made into a squirrel rifle some day. When I think squirrel, I think precision. That said, I dated a girl whose mom said, "Oh you are quite sporting using a rifle. I use a 12 gauge." :-)
12 gauge for squirrel seems a bit too much wouldn’t you say?? Lol.
In a smoothbore, gauge means little. It’s the shot load that counts. A one ounce load in a .54 smoothbore and a one ounce load in an 8 gauge is the same load. It’s the same load if it’s in a .40 smoothbore. Or a .32 smoothbore.
Thanks, Rich. I’d love an 8 gauge side by side muzzleloader. It’s a dream of mine.
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An 8 gauge would be illegal to hunt migratory birds in the US. In most states it would be illegal to use for small game of any kind with anything other than round ball.
Having shot skeet, trap and sporting clays for years, I have to disagree with Rich Pierce. What you want in a smoothbore/shotgun is a square load.
A one ounce load is physically the same in whatever gauge gun you put it in. However, its performance would not be. That one ounce load would work best with the 12 gauge.
With a smoothbore/shotgun, Gauge means everything in relation to the shot load. But I would sure like to see high speed photography of a .32 SB shooting a one ounce load of shot.
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That would likely be a LOOOOOONG shot string with very low velocity akin to shooting a 437.5gr. slug in that little bore.
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I am guilty of hyperbole. ::)
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What Rich says in post 26 is right.
Actually, for best Patterns, a ten bore shooting an ounce of shot will produce likely the most even pattern, better than all the smaller bores.
This has been demonstrated many times.
What folks forget who tout a small bore firing a heavy for bore charge, is that the shot Column is very long.
In a small bore, Much more than 50 percent of the pellets are in contact with the barrel wall.
When the charge is fired, the rear pellets are crushed up into the forward ones, causing damage, plus abrading against the barrel wall.
Its also a known fact that these damaged pellets produce the fliers in a pattern,, and also produce less energy. It is the undamaged pellets that fly true and make up the centre of the pattern.
all the best,
Richard.
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What Rich says in post 26 is right.
Actually, for best Patterns, a ten bore shooting an ounce of shot will produce likely the most even pattern, better than all the smaller bores.
This has been demonstrated many times.
What folks forget who tout a small bore firing a heavy for bore charge, is that the shot Column is very long.
In a small bore, Much more than 50 percent of the pellets are in contact with the barrel wall.
When the charge is fired, the rear pellets are crushed up into the forward ones, causing damage, plus abrading against the barrel wall.
Its also a known fact that these damaged pellets produce the fliers in a pattern,, and also produce less energy. It is the undamaged pellets that fly true and make up the centre of the pattern.
all the best,
Richard.
Interesting, makes a lot of sense.
I am now also desiring an 8 gauge English style percussion fowling piece. I have discovered there are far too many muzzleloading guns I want in my life for me to know what to do! Lol.
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What about a Tubelock single in 8-bore, Panzer?
I have an antique barrel in fine order !