AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Gun Building => Topic started by: Top Jaw on January 21, 2023, 12:44:33 AM
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I called this post “theoretical barrel swamping methods”. Because from what I’ve read in the past nobody attempts more than one of these in their lifetime by hand. And I’m not wanting to do one myself necessarily, unless somebody devised an easier method. In fact, I just watched a guy on the Internet attempt to file a taper into a pistol barrel. And it looked like the slow tedious labor-intensive process that many of you have stated it is.
As he was doing it, I found myself wondering about improved methods. Like if a vertical spindle sander could be used to do bulk removal for an octagon barrel swamp - sanding down to some indexed saw or file cuts? Then finished up with hand filing. Any of you enterprising guys ever try this (or any other method) to eliminate some of the bulk hand filing required?
Just wondering, more than talking myself into attempting it. I do have a straight barrel in the back of the closet that could be a candidate for an “experiment” at some point. But only if doing the entire process by hand could be improved upon.
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I saw a rifle by Hershel House that was hand swamped. We were told he used a "body grinder". I'm guessing they meant an angle grinder like you'd use for auto body work.
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I draw filed the step out of a WWI rifle barrel once. Not going to happen again. That's how I learned draw-filing. From that experience I can assure all that I have no interest in swamping one at home. Just cleaning up a factory bbl surface (after they swamp it) satisfies my filing needs.
Yes I realize it's different alloys but that's the kernel of a different discussion. Good luck however you go. If I were "forced" I'd body grind on it, carefully as possible.
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I'm looking down the barrel of the same question. Pun intended. Two swamped barrels needed for my current project don't exist. Hand filing is definitely out of the question and so far, no commercial barrel maker is interested in making custom barrels. So, we have in the works a design for a "barrel mill". It's planned to be a three step operation. First step is turning the round part out the muzzle to include the flare. Second step is turning the barrel bands, third step is milling the tapered octagon. This machine will be custom built in my shop using repurposed and off the shelf components. Simple in theory and simple in design? I like things simple.
Hank
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no commercial barrel maker is interested in making custom barrels.
Huh?
Charlie Burton (FCI)
Ed Rayl
Bob Hoyt
probably some others. Colerain did a couple semi-custom barrels for me 20 yers ago.
Are you talking about non-muzzleloading barrels, i.e. smokeless?
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I have done the odd barrel by hand.
Made a 43" barrel from real heavy drawn tubing, fine bored and rifled it 18th C way, then put flats on it and swamped it by hand.
I talked to Hershel, and he said he'd done it with a surform rasp.
Tried it but it seemed slow.
Picked up a file but soon put it down again.
Thought of an angle grinder, but figured I'd warp it.
On the wall I had an Ohio Tool Co drawknife for wood.
I tried it very gently and it would cut this pretty mild steel, so I made a 'draw knife" out of a reaper file.
Took teeth off the fine side, and ground a bevel on it and oil- stoned it to a sharp edge.
Holding this diagonal to the direction of work, (think guillotine ) I found it would tear great long shavings off that were real hot on the hands.
These shgavings looked like great thick starnds of steel wool.
I had a heap half way to my knees by the time I had that barrel octagon and flared. To be honest, a flat took about 20 minutes, but you don't need a coat on even in winter.
That barrel I left on the lower flats in its rough wavy state, and only draw-filed what showed.
Never too pictures of that work.
Have done short matchlock barrels same way.
Last one was harder steel and the chewings came off much shorter and more brittle, but it worked.
Pic of the last one, below.
(https://i.ibb.co/CtHKh4G/DSCN1888.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Jdsj58J)
(https://i.ibb.co/4210S0T/DSCN1891.jpg) (https://ibb.co/FXHdYdw)
(https://i.ibb.co/f9ZvYW4/DSCN1893.jpg) (https://ibb.co/1MB6fN8)
Couple of pics of barrel nearer to finished;
(https://i.ibb.co/k5hH4wG/DSCN2745.jpg) (https://ibb.co/mbHD92R)
(https://i.ibb.co/6WsQRbc/DSCN2759.jpg) (https://ibb.co/hm80RHx)
(https://i.ibb.co/HgrhVFY/DSCN2754.jpg) (https://ibb.co/j4LJT6G)
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A few years back I swamped a Douglas barrel using my buddy's mill. Worked out pretty well. I might do another someday, after I run out of the already swamped barrels I have laid back. Swamp one by hand? Forget that!
Ron
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I used a auto body rasp to file down a straight octagon barrel into a tapered octagon to round trade gun barrel. Took the better part of a week and I ended up with a large Mason jar full of filings. Yeah it worked and was my only option because of my poverty at the time but I swear I will never try to do anything like that again!
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Few years back I hand swamped a 1” Douglas barrel that I cut to 31”for a jaeger I was building. I used a 12” double cut file and a 12” bastard mill file. Finished up with different grades of sand paper. It was a lot of work but I think I would do again.
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Body grinder on a barrel. Sort of like using a Dremel on.....anything. What could go wrong? :(
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Body grinder on a barrel. Sort of like using a Dremel on.....anything. What could go wrong? :(
Power tools are no different than hand tools. You need to learn how to use them.
A Dremel can save a lot of work. It is a poor man's Foredom Flexshaft.
Angle grinders if used properly can also save a lot of work.
Most people want to get things done too fast when using these tools. That is when they get into trouble.
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Body grinder on a barrel. Sort of like using a Dremel on.....anything. What could go wrong? :(
Power tools are no different than hand tools. You need to learn how to use them.
A Dremel can save a lot of work. It is a poor man's Foredom Flexshaft.
Angle grinders if used properly can also save a lot of work.
Most people want to get things done too fast when using these tools. That is when they get into trouble.
You sure nailed it re trying to get things done too fast. A power tool can be used to ease the labor , but you still need the care and patience that hand tools require.
Somewhere around a quarter century back in time, I swamped a Douglas barrel by hand, and it wasn't too difficult of a job. The material was soft enough that I was able to use a scraper blade I made [ much like Richard's example] I think it took about a day
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This discussion makes me wonder if a grinding wheel on a Shopsmith, or grinder with a wide table and miter slot/fence, or a table saw with a cut off wheel, along with a taper jig like those used to make things like table legs would work... Use a stop so each side is the same. The grind could be done in several light passes with the angle of the jig changed until the desired depth is reached. Clean it up by filing and draw filing.
Conceptually it would work like this:
(https://i.ibb.co/dG51ZtG/true-Cut-Taper20jig.jpg) (https://ibb.co/BqCdkGq)
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I never tried to swamp a barrel for a rifle but did file a 10 inch pistol barrel from round to octagon when I was about 19 years old and now as I approach 87 I would not think of doing it.An old friend,Marshal Ralph Hooker filed a long rifle barrel from round to octagon and also said
never again.He passed about 22 years ago.I have wondered about some of the leaded steels being used for black powder barrels and what could be done with a half round Vixen file for a "swamping" job.I make or did make screws from it and it offered little resistance to a lathe tool and have a 1/2" piece to make a new lead screw for the 618 lathes that I have (2).They are 1/2x16TPI.
Bob Roller
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Body grinder on a barrel. Sort of like using a Dremel on.....anything. What could go wrong? :(
Power tools are no different than hand tools. You need to learn how to use them.
A Dremel can save a lot of work. It is a poor man's Foredom Flexshaft.
Angle grinders if used properly can also save a lot of work.
Most people want to get things done too fast when using these tools. That is when they get into trouble.
Yes. I understand that. I do have a Dremel and use it when\where it saves time and the end product will be the same. I think a "sarcastic" emoji would be useful when I post such comments. 8)
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Here's Charlie's swamping tool. As most of you know he is Mr. Burton of FCI.
(https://i.ibb.co/2MYtk55/SWAMPER-FCI-IMG-0339.jpg) (https://ibb.co/n18cLRR)
It's a bit much for a home shop, but then different folks have different levels of access to machines and machinists.
The problem with hand grinding (with power grinder) one out in my mind is the hours of filing --after-- the fact to get it all "plumb and square" as the flats must look right (taper evenly and without twist) as well as avoid being too far off center. Too far off center could cause problems with dovetails.
If I were to tackle such a job, here's how I'd proceed: Verify the center of the extant bore relative to all flats. Cut gauge lines along the barrel (allowing/correcting for any discrepancies), crosswise, a few thousandths short of desired finished swamp. Carefully removed nearly all the metal above those lines with a powered grinder/cutter. THEN get on with the good old fashioned draw-filing to remove the gauge marks, blend it all in, and finalize the shape.
It'd get faster over time (first time would be brutally slow), but Charlie's way is superfastereasier all at once! The only drawback is that you'll have to wait your turn, and give him a few $.
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Regarding the pictures above, Is the barrel bent by the jacks the correct amount to create the swamp or does the cutter move up and down? Up and down would require some sort of programming or a pantograph type of set up?
IF the barrel is bent it would require a different jack height for every other flat? I could see that being set up with a set of shims that are inserted after ever other flat is cut.
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You pay with time.....or you pay with money. But in the end....you pay.
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Bill Large sprung barrels and planed them on an 1898 G.A.Gray planer and if there was any problem he had a barrel jack and could straighten them.He had 2 planers and used both almost daily.He used mostly 1144 and no problems that I ever heard of.
Bob Roller
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Over the years I have swamped a few barrels with a bench grinder or angle grinder to get the rough profile, then finished with draw filing. It isn't a big deal although enough profiles are available from makers today, it usually isn't necessary. I find for draw filing a nice, big SHARP file is a requirement. I have a 14 '' Johnson file that makes short work of barrel flats and leaves a really nice finish and is NEVER used for any other purpose. Draw filing on old Douglas barrels was a chore as they had some seriously hard steel in them. (The first barrel I ever swamped was a Douglas back before I had any grinders, done all by hand, that was a chore) 12L14 as is used by most makers today is fairly easy to work. Another thing to remember, most makers today make barrels with much more swamp in them than most originals had.
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I did as Ron did. I set up a vertical mill so I could mount the barrel at the correct angle (slope). The barrel is layed out in 3 sections - muzzle, mid section, and breeech. I did each section completely before moving on to the next section. After milling the three different sections I draw filed the barrel to make the transitions and tooling marks disappear.
Dave
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And if I may ask, approximately how much weigh savings is there in draw filing say a .54 cal. Or even a .45 cal or less?
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And if I may ask, approximately how much weigh savings is there in draw filing say a .54 cal. Or even a .45 cal or less?
I'd think it's at least as much about the balance of the gun as it is about the weight... appearance is nice too!
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Guys,
I have done this numerous times, using a large angle grinder, really big & coarse files and a barrel bore centering tool. Here is a topic showing the process:
Wrought Iron Barrel Re-Use https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=31614.msg303333#msg303333
Here is a topic showing the really necessary tool for swamping a barrel without ruining it:
Centering the Bore in a Barrel https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=21868.0
Jim
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Regarding the pictures above, Is the barrel bent by the jacks the correct amount to create the swamp or does the cutter move up and down? Up and down would require some sort of programming or a pantograph type of set up?
IF the barrel is bent it would require a different jack height for every other flat? I could see that being set up with a set of shims that are inserted after ever other flat is cut.
Mr. Burton would be the best person to answer that. I just know where that pic resides and went and grabbed it for the thread. I'm no machinist.
On second glance, the bbl looks fully supported such that the cutter moves and the barrel is not flexed. But I'm not putting money on any bets here.
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I have wondered exactly how the old guys did it. I’m sure they used a grinding wheel, and I’ve wondered if they figured out a way to set the barrel up in a fixture with unequal length arms at each end. Moving the barrel back and forth against the grindstone should give a swamp wouldn’t it ? Wouldn’t be perfectly straight , but with the correct length ( ie long enough arm) it would seem to be possible to come close to a straight flat, and use a shorter arm at the other end to get a more rapid taper . Think parallelogram with one shorter end.
Or am I just tired of inletting a swamped barrel tonite ?
Mikeyfirelock
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Might some of it been done on the anvil, when forging?
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Might some of it been done on the anvil, when forging?
That is my guess as well. The welding process is actually conducive to having some degree of "swamp"
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Quite some time ago I read somewhere about barrels being swamped by flexing them upwards (at the desired point of the waist) in a set up on a mill table and then taking a straight pass with a fly cutter. Four of the flats are done with the same set up and the remaining four are flexed over a block that adds the amount removed from the barrel at the waist on the first four. When I first read about this, I thought it was a fairly drastic treatment of a barrel. However, since then, I have had to straighten a few barrels and came to understand how far you actually have to flex a barrel in order for it to take even a very slight permanent set....far more than the barrel would need to be flexed to produce a swamp by this method. Does anyone know more about this process and if there are more problems than I see with it ?
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This barrel needed to be stressed more, to take on a permanent bend, as when this "fixture" was removed, the barrel was straight.
It needed to bend a tich, to shoot to the sight.
(https://i.ibb.co/f1VxjX7/100-1730-zpsyolyc4so.jpg) (https://ibb.co/RvGDRgW)
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Daryl,
That's exactly what I'm talking about. To actually bend a barrel you would need way more flexing than it would take to straight mill an appropriate swamp. Even without a milling machine, if the barrel were clamped with the appropriate amount of flex with a couple of straight guides on either side, it would help guide a file or grinder ....or whatever. Perhaps more controllable than just doing it by "eyeball".
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Daryl,
That's what I also have heard, that the basic swamp was created during the forging process.
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Daryl,
That's exactly what I'm talking about. To actually bend a barrel you would need way more flexing than it would take to straight mill an appropriate swamp. Even without a milling machine, if the barrel were clamped with the appropriate amount of flex with a couple of straight guides on either side, it would help guide a file or grinder ....or whatever. Perhaps more controllable than just doing it by "eyeball".
Yes, but the bend isn't symmetrical about the length. Typically there is a substantial flare that starts a relatively short distance from the muzzle. Bending to produce this may exceed the elastic limit.
Jim
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I'm in the camp that says the flare at each end is (mostly) an incidental byproduct of the forging process. When you "stretch" a piece to make it longer, you're naturally going to hammer it in the middle and work it towards the ends. Yes... having it thicker at the breech end makes that part stronger... and yes... having the muzzle larger can help the balance... but I believe that was more a happy coincidence than the object of the exercise.
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Having the muzzle flare eliminates the need for a front sight with a very high blade.
Reasons for swamped form:
Thickness at breech without excess weight
Balance and weight savings
Sights at right height almost automatically
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Look at Jaeger barrels. No way that is an accident or just a consequence of a forging technique. Not reasonable.
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Somewhere there is an illustration of a period barrel grinding machine. It depicts the shop of a barrel maker, and a worker is seen grinding a barrel on a tabletop grinding stone. I can't remember what book it is in. Anyway, in the early 1980's I began making a barrel "swamping" machine that consisted or a long table with a grinder wheel mounted underneath with the wheel protruding up through a slot in the table. It was powered by an Elec motor. My plan was to have the wheel/motor adjustable up and down. Next there were two sets of tracks (angle iron) meeting at the center of the wheel that were adjustable up and down at the wheel. The barrel then was mounted on centers in a carrier with a grooved wheel on each corner and it rolled back and forth on the tracks and would grind a swamp in the barrel...I think? I never got the barrel swamping machine completed but I still have the barrel carrier with mounted wheels in the corner of my shop.,,,LK
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I think the basic swamp was established during the initial forging, but I don't think it was a happy accident. I believe it was intentional. The knew what they were doing.
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If I may... I worked as an "old timer" at Williamsburg and assisted Jon Laubach in forging swamped barrels. His son Chris is the lock maker who participates on this site (or did??)...
The barrels were intentionally forged to have taper. A very basic description of this is the taper was started by creating a "flat" iron skelp that tapered in thickness and width. The skelp was then heated and rounded into a trough by forging on a swag block. Next the edges are wrapped, starting in the middle of the length, and forge welded lengthwise around a mandrel*. It takes many heats in the forge and lots of hammering to do this! The resulting barrel is thus by design thicker at the breech and tapers towards the muzzle.
The flared muzzle is created by "jumping" the barrel. Jumping involves heating the barrel and driving it into the face of the anvil to expand and thicken the barrel near the muzzle. This step too requires multiple heats and you have to maintain a hole through the barrel. If you close up the hole through carelessness you cannot get a reamer through it... barrel drilling wasn't possible in the 18th century so you may have scrap with which to make a new skelp. ;)
The barrel taper is made more uniform and straighter through heats and hammering and then the flats are forged... again using a mandrel near the ends to preserve the hole. Later the flats are filed...
*The mandrel is a steel tapered rod that is used to maintain a hole for future reaming... it will not get welded into the barrel as it is never brought to welding temperature... it only gains heat from being inserted into the hot skelp during welding.
There are a LOT more fine details involved in the forging, dimensioning and quality control but this description gives you a good idea how it was done. A good eyecrometer is crucial throughout the process as are some gauges... ;)
Note that there is a barrel forging video featuring Jon and Chris floating around. It's title "Forging a flintlock rifle barrel with Jon Laubach." I do not recall who produced and distributed it...