AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Antique Accoutrements => Topic started by: T.C.Albert on March 13, 2023, 11:13:01 AM
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I'm looking for a reference to Washington's men being given directions on how to sew up linen or osnaburg shot pouches with two pockets because real ones were in short supply. The pockets were to separate loose shot by size as I recall. This was either during the rev or F+I war. I cant find the letter on line anywhere now though I believe it was there in several places once. Thanks very much for any help in advance,
Tim A
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I know Art DeCamp has a bit of reference in his fine horn book
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The 2d Virginia Regiment October 12, 1775:
“… Each Company is to draw a sufficient Quantity of Dutch or Russia Drilling to provide Each Soldier with a Shott Pouch with a partition in division in the middle to keep buckshot and bullets separate. Each Soldier to make his own sack and Shot Pouch as near one General Size Pattern as possible…”
I'm not sure where the papers of the 2nd VA Regiment exist... maybe Library of VA , VA Historical Society or the National Archives
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James, THATS IT!
Thanks a million. After hours of searching I could only find the F+I correspondence between Washington and Boquet that mentions Osnaburg "shott pouches" as substitutes for standard issue cartridge boxes, but I knew there was also a Rev War reference describing "how" they were to be made out there somewhere too.
Thanks again very much,
TC
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Sorry that took so long. Most of my documentation or that type of information resides on my old desktop computer.
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Will this help? https://www.nhhistory.org/object/230146/pouch-shot
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Thanks for the link.
TC
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Gents,
Two different animals here, the 2nd Virginia PROVINCIAL regiment of the F&I was only around for a year during the Forbes expedition (commanded by Wm Byrd) vs. the Revolutionary war 2d Va Continental regiment. Both used linen pouches as stop gaps but in different kinds of linen cloth. The F&I Bouquet/Forbes reference 13 June 58 mentions the number 8 per yard of "osnabrug", but be careful as you need to use the (frequently narrow) period width of the different coarse linens. RevWar 2d Va used "duck" and "twill" and those are where the division and belts are mentioned. Below is a conjectural repro based on the Bouquet/RevWar and NHS Levi Hutchins info.
(https://i.ibb.co/cX683Ng/linen-repro.webp) (https://ibb.co/h1Bd9K7)
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I'm not sure where the papers of the 2nd VA Regiment exist... maybe Library of VA , VA Historical Society or the National Archives
Tartar, Brent, editor. "The Orderly Book of the Second Virginia Regiment, September 27, 1775-April 15, 1776." Virginia Magazine of History and Biography, 85 (April, July 1977)
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Jim, where can one find that '58 reference?
Thanks
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Especially in the rev war, were these cloth substitute "shott pouches" used because bore sizes were still so varied they couldn't expect to use standard armory issued cartridges? If so it seems a powder horn would be needed as well as wadding to loose load at the muzzle. It also opens the whole priming conundrum as well. I think I recall reading about horns being turned in to the armory be filled, which is why owners names were carved into them?
Conversely, if a soldier had a good cartridge box and was regularly issued standard paper cartridges did he have no need for a powder horn and loose bullets and therefore not carry them?
Sorry for all the questions but I'm trying to get a good understanding of this.
Thanks very much,
TCA
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Especially in the rev war, were these cloth substitute "shott pouches" used because bore sizes were still so varied they couldn't expect to use standard armory issued cartridges? If so it seems a powder horn would be needed as well as wadding to loose load at the muzzle. It also opens the whole priming conundrum as well. I think I recall reading about horns being turned in to the armory be filled, which is why owners names were carved into them?
Conversely, if a soldier had a good cartridge box and was regularly issued standard paper cartridges did he have no need for a powder horn and loose bullets and therefore not carry them?
Sorry for all the questions but I'm trying to get a good understanding of this.
Thanks very much,
TCA
Some where I remember Washington requesting 3000 horns if I remember correctly. I wondered what kind they were and who made them, If he ever got them.
Tim
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1758
https://archive.org/stream/paperseditedbysk00bouq_0/paperseditedbysk00bouq_0_djvu.txt (https://archive.org/stream/paperseditedbysk00bouq_0/paperseditedbysk00bouq_0_djvu.txt)
THE Papers of Henry Bouquet
VOLUME II
The Forbes Expedition
EDITED BV
S. K. STEVENS
DONALD H. KENT
AUTUMN L. LEONARD
THE PENNSYLVANIA HISTORICAL AND MUSEUM COMMISSION HARRISBURG • 1951
(https://i.ibb.co/1bV4Zjp/Screenshot-2023-03-22-at-15-10-17-Full-text-of-Papers-edited-by-S-K-Stevens-Donald-H-Kent-and-Autumn.png) (https://ibb.co/0QNzqvW)
https://founders.archives.gov/documents/Washington/02-05-02-0157 (https://founders.archives.gov/documents/Washington/02-05-02-0157)
“The Col. Is desired to collect in Virginia as many Powder horns as can be got, all that can be had from Pensilvania shall be ordered...
For Shot Pouches, osnabrug [a course, unbleached and cheap linen] will be bought, with thread to make them one yard will make 8 bags.”
(Bouquet to Washington June 13, 1758 George Washington papers p 208).
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Especially in the rev war, were these cloth substitute "shott pouches" used because bore sizes were still so varied they couldn't expect to use standard armory issued cartridges? If so it seems a powder horn would be needed as well as wadding to loose load at the muzzle. It also opens the whole priming conundrum as well. I think I recall reading about horns being turned in to the armory be filled, which is why owners names were carved into them?
Conversely, if a soldier had a good cartridge box and was regularly issued standard paper cartridges did he have no need for a powder horn and loose bullets and therefore not carry them?
Sorry for all the questions but I'm trying to get a good understanding of this.
Thanks very much,
TCA
Some where I remember Washington requesting 3000 horns if I remember correctly. I wondered what kind they were and who made them, If he ever got them.
Tim
Tim,
Washington had his officers buying up locally made horns in VA and they bought casks of ready made horns in Philly. Mike Burke at Fort Pitt makes a very compelling case for the G. Biler horn being likely one of these pro made horns used by a Forbes Provincial, Fort Pitt has some good info online on that account https://www.heinzhistorycenter.org/blog/fort-pitt-museum-fort-duquesne-powder-horn/ (https://www.heinzhistorycenter.org/blog/fort-pitt-museum-fort-duquesne-powder-horn/)
There is a horn base plug at Fort Ligonier that is not a turned pro build.
Letters to Washington and Accompanying Papers. Published by the Society of the Colonial Dames of America. Edited by Stanislaus Murray Hamilton.
CONEGOCHEAGUE 21st. June 1758
SIR
I have made Inquiry Concerning the 200 Hatchets Mention'd in your's but has yet got no Information Concerning them
... I am Sir
... Yr. Most Obedt. hble. servt
... JNO. KIDD
List of Sundry's from Carlyle
Kettles ... 171
Canteens ... 465
Barrels of Powder Horns ... 3
Saddles ... 18
Box of Furniture for Ditto ... 1
Spades ... 12
Picks ... 12
As early as 1756 GW orders his officers to locally provide their men with powder horns and shot bags due to the scarcity of proper cartridge paper.
"If you have one Halbert, it is more than we have in the whole Regiment; and I desire it may be laid aside, and a musket, &c. substituted in its place.
Cartridge-paper is an article not to be had here; and we make use of horns and pouches in its stead, which you must also do. Drums will be sent by Major Lewis,
who is to have the command of your company, and will move it hitherwards." George Washington to Thomas Bullitt, July 24, 1757
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Especially in the rev war, were these cloth substitute "shott pouches" used because bore sizes were still so varied they couldn't expect to use standard armory issued cartridges? If so it seems a powder horn would be needed as well as wadding to loose load at the muzzle. It also opens the whole priming conundrum as well. I think I recall reading about horns being turned in to the armory be filled, which is why owners names were carved into them?
Conversely, if a soldier had a good cartridge box and was regularly issued standard paper cartridges did he have no need for a powder horn and loose bullets and therefore not carry them?
Sorry for all the questions but I'm trying to get a good understanding of this.
Thanks very much,
TCA
2d Va OB 1775
“Shot Pouches to be Instantly made and powder horns to be provided without Loss of Time & Both dealt out to the men who
have Muskets fit for Action.”
“The Captains in the there Respective Companys are to fix up the Powder horns & Shot Bags.
When both are finished & See that proper Belts & Stoppers are Provided, where Shot Bags only are Ready the must be Fixed with Belts & 6:
Cartridges of Powder and also Six Bullets Deposited in Each Bag & Dilivered to the Soldiers Respectively.”
“Those that have Cartridge Boxes as well as Powder Horns & Shot Bags are to furnish their Boxes to those men, who have no horns & Bags…”
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A plethora of documention shared in this thread. Thank you backsplash75.
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Especially in the rev war, were these cloth substitute "shott pouches" used because bore sizes were still so varied they couldn't expect to use standard armory issued cartridges? If so it seems a powder horn would be needed as well as wadding to loose load at the muzzle. It also opens the whole priming conundrum as well. I think I recall reading about horns being turned in to the armory be filled, which is why owners names were carved into them?
Conversely, if a soldier had a good cartridge box and was regularly issued standard paper cartridges did he have no need for a powder horn and loose bullets and therefore not carry them?
Sorry for all the questions but I'm trying to get a good understanding of this.
Thanks very much,
TCA
Some where I remember Washington requesting 3000 horns if I remember correctly. I wondered what kind they were and who made them, If he ever got them.
Tim
Tim,
Washington had his officers buying up locally made horns in VA and they bought casks of ready made horns in Philly. Mike Burke at Fort Pitt makes a very compelling case for the G. Biler horn being likely one of these pro made horns used by a Forbes Provincial, Fort Pitt has some good info online on that account https://www.heinzhistorycenter.org/blog/fort-pitt-museum-fort-duquesne-powder-horn/ (https://www.heinzhistorycenter.org/blog/fort-pitt-museum-fort-duquesne-powder-horn/)
There is a horn base plug at Fort Ligonier that is not a turned pro build.
Letters to Washington and Accompanying Papers. Published by the Society of the Colonial Dames of America. Edited by Stanislaus Murray Hamilton.
CONEGOCHEAGUE 21st. June 1758
SIR
I have made Inquiry Concerning the 200 Hatchets Mention'd in your's but has yet got no Information Concerning them
... I am Sir
... Yr. Most Obedt. hble. servt
... JNO. KIDD
List of Sundry's from Carlyle
Kettles ... 171
Canteens ... 465
Barrels of Powder Horns ... 3
Saddles ... 18
Box of Furniture for Ditto ... 1
Spades ... 12
Picks ... 12
As early as 1756 GW orders his officers to locally provide their men with powder horns and shot bags due to the scarcity of proper cartridge paper.
"If you have one Halbert, it is more than we have in the whole Regiment; and I desire it may be laid aside, and a musket, &c. substituted in its place.
Cartridge-paper is an article not to be had here; and we make use of horns and pouches in its stead, which you must also do. Drums will be sent by Major Lewis,
who is to have the command of your company, and will move it hitherwards." George Washington to Thomas Bullitt, July 24, 1757
Thank you for your research. Somewhere in the link I read that Virginia horns had been received. That is quite a read.
Tim
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Yes, thank you very much. This info is great.
I’m researching a story I’m planning to do and this will help very much.
Thanks again,
TC
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How were these to be worn? Over the shoulder or around the waist? I saw the one reference in the thread that they should be secured with leather belts? I’m relatively new to the hobby and just trying to better understand.
Thank you,
Jason
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I assume they secured to a waist belt.
Tim A