AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Gun Building => Topic started by: JH Ehlers on March 16, 2023, 07:49:12 PM
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I have been a long time member here but have not contributed much as American long rifles are not my main line of interest, but I still enjoy looking at them. I have only built one kit gun that is not finished yet, it was started about 2007. I have been collecting parts for years and started this latest fowling piece a year or so ago. I am better at making stuff than posting stuff on the internet, so have patience with me, I am figuring it out. Hope you like it.
(https://i.ibb.co/48k8YqW/20230315-154938-resized.jpg) (https://ibb.co/F5p50r6)
(https://i.ibb.co/hY3b6RD/20230315-155128-resized.jpg) (https://ibb.co/rdDYjG4)
(https://i.ibb.co/3dHgP91/20230315-155208-resized.jpg) (https://ibb.co/9gjQdkn)
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Looks pretty good so far. The seemingly slightly heavy butt section will help make it swing very well on flying or running game.
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Hey Daryl, some guys like a big butt, this one is still a bit chunky and needs to lose wood everywhere. Its a slow process for me studying pictures as much as I can as I dont own original pieces and I live way north in BC Canada, not possible to get to a show or museum etc. Critics are welcome, any help too.
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Johan,
That is looking fabulous! I love it. Beautiful work.
Jim
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Not a style that I have any particular knowledge of, but I looks pretty nice to me.
Hope you are able to finish it sometime soon.
Good luck
Jeff
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Looking good.
Bob
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Nifty.
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If YOU like it and it feels right when you put it to your shoulder that's all that counts.It is a good looking gun and something to be proud of.
Bob Roller
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It's very attractive!
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Very nice. My kind of early styling. Tell me about that trigger guard.
Any pics of your buttplate?
I like what I can see of your lock moldings.
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Thanks for the comments everyone, I am glad that you like it. Thank you Jim, your input is probably the most important to me as i dont know of anybody else who has made something similar, if only it could turn out as good as your fowling piece.
James I got the trigger guard at Home Depot it looked pretty rough but after some mortice and tennon, peening, welding, silver soldering and filing i think it looks ok. The butt plate was from Track of the wolf, with some modifications, I cant remember the name. My inspiration comes mostly from Dutch and french makers of late 16th and early 17th century. I like doing the research and study very much. I will post some more pictures a bit later today.
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Oh, and thank you Rich, It was your post that brought me out into the open, this is interesting. I have never shared anything that I have ever done.
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The trigger guard is going to be surface mounted, the forward slotted tab will hold the thumb plate as well. Still some deeper inletting and fiddling with all parts need to be done. I still have to do some sculpting on the finials and finish the trigger guard, hope I dont mess it up, or else I will have to start over.
(https://i.ibb.co/w7k4Vn8/20230316-164411-resized.jpg) (https://ibb.co/3v3c2xV)
(https://i.ibb.co/021b6YG/20230317-104522-resized.jpg) (https://ibb.co/6wGCTDW)
(https://i.ibb.co/c36vvDw/20230317-104638-resized.jpg) (https://ibb.co/NC933Zr)
(https://i.ibb.co/YZtdGvF/20230317-104705-resized.jpg) (https://ibb.co/GTVMjg4)
(https://i.ibb.co/yVjwJqT/20230317-104741-resized.jpg) (https://ibb.co/HX8WQqv)
(https://i.ibb.co/QvwV5jv/20230317-104813-resized.jpg) (https://ibb.co/nMJyW8M)
(https://i.ibb.co/x3vrX1R/20230317-105009-resized.jpg) (https://ibb.co/zNctQX0)
(https://i.ibb.co/GC91b86/20230317-105151-resized-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/YfXKq1C)
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Dang!
What a shame to hide all that pretty inletting. ;)
Nice…
Jeff
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Thank you Jeff.
James, I had a look, and the butt plate was the french type c.
Did some experimenting with frizzen and barrel decoration today.
Hope I live long enough to finish this!
(https://i.ibb.co/2Z1wyd7/20230320-124231-resized.jpg) (https://ibb.co/0sRkcrj)
(https://i.ibb.co/cvSDshs/20230320-131951-resized.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ZJpWbzb)
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Looking good. I see at the corner of one of those photos some nice barrel work ; )
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Butt plate and lock inlets are sure nice. Intriguing t-guard work.
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Sorry to dig this old cow up and bring it to the top! Spent a day working on the trigger guard forward finial. Anyone have some methods they use for this kind of work they want to share? I still need to do more work on it.
(https://i.ibb.co/LpGd0zR/20230501-151659.jpg) (https://ibb.co/kcd2GgB)
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I have no methods to share but must say the workmanship on that finial is outstanding. How long did it take to do that? Other details of your project display the same quality of workmanship. Hope to see more of it.
Hank
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Wow I really like what you are doing. I have been more and more interested in European guns over the last few years. There is a lot to like in what I see. Really like your lock moldings. That looks to be Chambers L-20 lock. Like the chiseling on the cock very much. You are doing a great job hiding screws.
I looked at 5 or 6 of those locks, had Ryan Roberts look at the ones he had in stock, they all had a gap between the pan skirt and the lock plate. I enlarged yours and it also appears to have that gap. It really drove me up the wall. I ended up using solder paste to fill it and since I left the lock bright, it disappeared.
I know what you mean about living long enough to finish projects. Looking forward to seeing this gun finished.
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That is some absolutely splendid work, Johan! I love it. The 17th century work is hard to beat and so underappreciated!
Makes me want to do more work in this period.
Here is a link to a blog post showing some work I did years ago...
https://www.jimkibler.net/blog/previous/5
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Most enjoyable. Keep posting! This is in my wheelhouse of interest.
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That triggerguard finial is amazing!!! It looks to have been shaped hot with a chisel, and if so I would say master class work. Johan, would you mind sharing how you did the shaping to it? Absolutely beautiful.
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Mr. Ehlers: where in BC are you? I'm in Prince George. By the way, I concur with others assessments...your work is excellent. Going to be a splendid piece.
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Thank you all, Hank, theres about 8 hours of work into it now that includes looking and thinking and coffee, I seem to do a lot of these.
Jim, I remember that post from years ago, thanks for taking me back to it, your tips are very helpfull. I really think you should do more of this kind of work, we are not getting younger. We need more people doing it so we can share ideas. It is underappreciated like you said.
Alacran, I am very happy that Mr Chambers are making these locks, but yes there are some problems with them, like the pan that doesnt bottom out on the plate and its only the screw that holds it in place. It can be fixed by peening the pan and welding some material to the plate and refitting. Also the screws on the innards cant be tightend or the tumbler gets pinched. I have 2 of these locks and they are the same, lots of work to get them right. You just cant compare them with Jim's CNC locks wich are perfect. I think in the future I will just buy Jim's locks and alter the plate, cock and frizzen.
HSmith, follow the link to Jim's blog, its very interesting. I dont think they hot forged these finials in the 17th century, unless they wanted to mass produce them with die forging, but I doubt it. Actually I dont know much about it, I do know that there were some very good engravers back then.
I did it cold (its mild steel) with gravers, chisels, punches and files. I am a begginner when it comes to engraving and I find the sculpting easier than engraving lines, I use hand push and hammer and chisel. I find hand push easier than hammering. I am seriously considering getting a Lindsay palm control. I also have a selection of stones from congress tools like Jim uses and some die sinkers rifflers. Working with steel in this way is much the same as working with clay, you can push it around with a punch, cut it etc, its just harder.
I have to go off to work for a week tommorow so I dont have to be a starving artist, thans for looking!
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Hello Taylor, I am about 10 minutes away from Dawson Creek. I have seen your work(pictures) and I like it.
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very, VERY nice
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Pouce C. or Farmington?
Cool! I have a daughter in DC who teaches high school.
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Pouce Coupe Daryl. Are you also in Prince George?
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Beautiful work. Interesting design on the inletted pads that captures the trigger guard. Is that your design?
Wish I knew you guys when I was traveling through on the way to and from Alaska. Used to stay in a travel trailer campsite just south of Prince George…super nice country
Cheers Richard
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Richard, it's not my design, many of these guns you will see no pins holding the rear extension. I haven't found many pictures of dismantled guns showing the construction. I have one of a pistol where the forward hook is held by such a slotted pad. Mine are based on it.
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Pouce Coupe Daryl. Are you also in Prince George?
Yes, indeed. You'll have to come down for our local rendezvous, usually July long weekend.
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Bringing this dead horse back to life. Summer brings lots of other things to do, so progress is slow. Have to start on a sideplate, going to attempt something like this from Claude Simonin.
(https://i.ibb.co/zhQZKLN/16910192631903105057825161706136.jpg) (https://ibb.co/TBYtznr)
(https://i.ibb.co/mCDwHjL/20230615-193741.jpg) (https://ibb.co/bgWZr0S)
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That is quite fine and clean inletting and carving.
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It appears this one is for the Record Books 😮
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(https://i.ibb.co/n0ykhNV/20231109-091917.jpg) (https://ibb.co/g78gsLX)
Thought I would try something easier and less time consuming than the Simonin design. This sideplate is copied from a fowling piece by John Shaw.
I love the dolphin on the Simonin sideplate, going to have to do it in the future. Lots of slimming down engraving carving to do on this one. Hope you like it.
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Very nice. I have always loved the way the tendrils look on that Shaw plate.
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Beautiful work as always! I know I'm a broken record, but I sure do love this period of gunmaking. It's honestly about the only time frame that gets me going these days. I know it's foreign to many and doesn't have the romance of work from this country, but I still don't understand why it's so underappreciated.
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I hear you Jim. My wife gave me a copy of "The Art of the Gunmaker" about 50 years ago, and in it are some colour plates of horse pistols with burly wood and wonderful architecture. I've poured over those images for a long time, dreaming about re-creating something like that. Mr. Ehlers work is super! It is one thing to study original work, but quite another to be able to replicate it. I'm truly enjoying this thread.
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Jim, I know what you mean. I am pretty confident in what I am doing even though most of the things I do is trial and error. I wish I had someone with the same interest who could look my work over and offer an opinion.
This time period just does it for me, I don't know why. Some people probably don't like it for the same reasons I don't like some other work.
Taylor, you are more capable than I am, I would love to see you building something from this period.
(https://i.ibb.co/VCrfJg6/2048410-item-NX7-PXAIXX5-B37-Q4-N5-M2-O2-BB4-HV4-HEDT2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/vdg0V39)
Here's a picture of a pair of pistols with only 2 visible screws, there is a fowling piece constructed in the same way by the same maker. I have been fascinated by this since the first time I saw it about 15 years ago. It might be my next project.
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just amazing. great work and talent.
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Johan,
I just sat down here with a similar gun in my head, and what do I see!?
You are doing a grand job on it. I liek you hav eset the trigger to the right where it should be on early arms.
The finial looks a top notch job!
I'd been thinking about a barrel I have, a Thomas Peele, C 1730, and wondering what lock to get.
Can someone tell me more about the Chambers offering?
This type of arm is of special interest to me!
Best,
Richard.
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Richard, it is the Chambers lock with a cock from Chris Hirch from Texas. The barrel has a breach of 1.25" , 46" long and 11 bore. I think the two fit well together and would'nt use a smaller barrel than that. The Chambers lock is fairly large and I suspect locks used on original work were mostly a bit smaller or shorter. The lock works well but can do with some extra work and I hate the flat stock bent sear springs.
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Mr Ehlers,
Thank you for your reply.
I looked at Jim's site but do not see a lock like this. The cock from Chris Hirch looks perfect!
You are doing a beautiful good job!
My barrel is a 14, and only 44 inches long, but I believe a but heavier in the breech. Its an old barrel though. Made in sections like the Spanish barrels
Also have a Thomas Bannister barrel from the end f the 17th C It's 54" If I remember right!
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Mr Chambers doesn't have that lock on his website, you will have to call or e-mail them. There was an other supplier as well muzzleloader builders supplies I think. Don't know if they ship to Canada.
Sounds like you have some nice barrels there.
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Thank you for the reply, Johan.
I am knee deep in various projects but will contact Jim.
There is another gun, a shortish one that is begging me to build. I will look it up. It is in Akehurst and GBG 1540 to 1740 I believe.
Also a Barbar or two that are stunningly beautiful work!
Your sideplate and how it is married to the panel is beautiful. It could not be better.
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Spent some time on this thing today. Can anyone tell me if it's worth it making a counterbore for the screw holes. Or better to buy one, they seem to be more expensive than countersinks.
(https://i.ibb.co/7CsPfqC/20231113-154205.jpg) (https://ibb.co/YQHmCxQ)
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You sure are doing a beautiful job. This sort of stuff speaks to me. Thanks for posting
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Thank you Jim. You probably know how much work it is making one of these, and how much attention you have to pay to get the details and proportions right. Some of the high end french sideplates are finished absolutely perfect. How they did it is a mystery to me. It's trial and error to me. Files, gravers of different shapes, stones, polished punches and I guess I will throw in some burnishers as well. Any advise welcome.
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As to your triggerguard attachment. I have a mid century English fowler and an early 1700's German fowler, both are attached as you have done. Excellent work . THANK you.
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Beautiful work. If you have a metal lathe a D type piloted conterbore is about a 10 minute turning job. Easily made and heat treated if you have some drill rod handy.
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mtlonghunter, thank you for confirming that, I only have a picture of a pistol that uses a similar setup. Does your fowler have 1 or 2 hooks?
44-henry, I used to have a 10" Sheldon lathe and still regret selling it because it was too much having to move it every time we moved. I think I will not fool around with trying to make something and just buy one.
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Do you intend to countersink the lock bolt locations on the side plate? If so, why? A machine screw with a flat (underside) and domed head would be appropriate I would think.
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From this,
(https://i.ibb.co/PNTZ3W0/Tguard.jpg) (https://ibb.co/JKxR0pg)
To this?
WOW
(https://i.ibb.co/rbL1MJL/TGuard2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/hXntHvn)
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Taylor, the screws will have flat undersides but need to be slightly lower than what they are now on the side plate, the serpent is slightly proud of the underside of the screw. I had to google what countersink would do this and apparently its called a counterbore, or a piloted counterbore. I could ofcourse file it but...maybe ill do that.
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I got the trigger guard hooks installed and it turned out a very secure way to attach it even without the front extension not pinned yet. Did some shaping around the trigger guard. Probably not the correct time for doing shaping, but I don't really know what I am doing so I would like to see what things are going to look like. I always leave a little room for error still lots to do in that area to make it perfect. Cell phone photos seem to look a little different than the real thing.
(https://i.ibb.co/rprRnDJ/20231210-105952.jpg) (https://ibb.co/B6M580R)
free picture hosting (https://imgbb.com/)
(https://i.ibb.co/W5t9v5D/20231210-105926.jpg) (https://ibb.co/MS6TkS8)
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Gotta be happy with that work!
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Agree, from where I sit it looks like top shelf stuff.
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Mr. Ehlers, where have you been hiding? This doesn't look like first timer stuff to me!!
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This is breathtaking!! Absolutely beautiful!
Al J.
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I feel so strongly about this as to reply to this thread twice. That is quite fine work.
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I always wait to see more work done added to this thread. I am a fanatic for the period being represented and you are doing a wonderful job.
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JH,
This is some of the nicest work I have ever seen.
Not only in execution but design also.
It is beautifully laid out with great thought.
Richard.
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WOW ! And you're 'feeling your way' through this ? What beautiful work and what a outstanding subject piece to boot! Keep us posted please.
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I love it!
Bob
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Thanks for the nice comments, though the most beautifull might be a bit strong. I dont think so, have a look at some others work, Mark Silver and Jim Kibler come to mind, i dont know who else did something similar, I have seen some pictures of a gun by Monte Mandarino as well.
Taylor, I have been hiding in a hole in Africa, I have been building this fowling piece(and others) in my head for a long time.
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Made some changes around the tang, I like it better now. Some pictures give a perspective of how much wood can be removed around the lock area. Still have to round the wrist more. I am not totally happy with the but plate shape but it is what it is. Next time I will make my own. Still have to make ramrod pipes as well.
But now packing up my stuff moving house soon.
Thanks for looking.
(https://i.ibb.co/hKs24Tf/20231220-170231.jpg) (https://ibb.co/qRBmc25)
(https://i.ibb.co/RyvPkXK/20231212-172517.jpg) (https://ibb.co/4dmMnbL)
(https://i.ibb.co/BgY9Yff/20240117-185531.jpg) (https://ibb.co/wK2f2dd)
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Now you’re cooking!
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Oh, I love it. So many things to like. You've done a remarkable job just working from pictures.
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Well done. Inspiring to me seeing the beautiful sculpting on your TG finial. Id like to make progress similarly but knowing which hand tools to buy is quite confusing not to mention a pile of💰 if I buy stuff I end up not using.
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Thank you Rich and Jim, if someone would see it in person they would probably be able to point out all the mistakes.
Jason I know how you feel, I would just start with a normal graver and start cutting metal and try to get the feel for it. The nature of this beast is to throw money at it. You will buy books, videos, gravers, sharpening templates, vises there's always more to spend. I am also learning, just start and don't stop. My wife would say, you been playing all day again. You got to deal with that as well.