AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: DanL on March 25, 2023, 04:18:46 PM
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Good morning. If discussions about TSS shot are forbidden, please remove.
Some folks need/want non-lead shot options. I have performed a bit of research with very little information forthcoming about using TSS in traditional smoothbores. Folks say it will ruin you barrel or the plastic shotgun wads will melt and leave nasty residue in your barrel. Well, I ran a couple of test on my Chambers .62 English officers fusil with a 41” barrel which is jug choked.
I acquired some #9 TSS, some non-slit plastic 20 gauge shotgun wads designed for TSS and a plastic shotgun wad slitter.
I compared weight to volume for TSS with a digital scale and my standard powder measure. I found:
1 ounce (by weight) of TSS = 40 grains (by volume) in my powder measure
1.5 oz ( by weight) of TSS = 60 grains (by volume)
1.75 oz ( by weight) of TSS = 70 grains ( by volume)
I tested several loads but here is my best load so far: (30 yards distance).
70 grains FFG Goex powder
1 1/8” nitro card edge lubed with Mr. Flintlock lube
1 1/8” wool felt wad lightly lubed with Mr. Flintlock lube
1 plastic shotgun wad (for TSS) slit fully and trimmed to length of shot column
70 grains #9 TSS
1 over shot card
My target was a large sheet of light cardboard with a lovely turkey image drawn on it. Turkey’s neck is about 10” for perspective.
As you can see, the pattern is pretty good at 30 yards. This is only the results of my testing with my flintlock smoothbore. Your mileage may vary.
No evidence of burning/melting plastic wads.
No evidence of plastic residue in barrel.
Wads have powder residue staining but could be used again.
No evidence of TSS dimpling the wads.
No evidence of damage to the barrel.
Jug choke did not appear to have influenced the pattern using plastic shotgun wads.
(https://i.ibb.co/B6ZM6js/65-C2563-D-D20-E-4865-AA81-FD4-E10-E44301.jpg) (https://ibb.co/rp6rpMy)
(https://i.ibb.co/k9cZPfk/D7-EAB612-7904-4460-928-F-58-A0084545-C2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/D8Kdjys)
(https://i.ibb.co/gS29cQy/7-B59-DB0-E-BABE-4881-B6-F1-EEF838-EF45-F9.jpg) (https://ibb.co/sKfRXcj)
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I have used plastic shot cups over black powder for years but always put a card or fiber wad under them and have never experienced melting problems. That pattern looks pretty dense. I would go to a larger size shot so there would be less pellets in the meat. Also larger shot usually groups tighter and carries farther.....Lk
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Hi Longknife. I agree that the pattern is very dense. That is kinda my goal but the load does need a bit more tweaking. I will aim a touch higher also to center the pattern on the head and neck.
Are you using TSS shot or lead/other? According to the TSS gurus ( not me), TSS behaves differently from lead. Evidently #9 TSS is supposed to have similar penetrating properties as #5 hardened lead and folks are getting through penetration leaving less pellets in the meat.
I just give the meat to my toothless neighbors anyway😁
Dan
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I have always used 4's, chilled lead shot. When I get a bird I usually filet the breast meat out and skin the legs and wings to boil and separate the tendons and bone to make soup, dumplings noodles pot pie, etc...LK
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" 1/8” nitro card edge lubed with Mr. Flintlock lube
1 1/8” wool felt wad lightly lubed with Mr. Flintlock lube"
Your wad column and Ed's are why you are not getting plastic in your bore.
The use of plastic steel shot wads is the reason for the tighter patterning, along with the jug choke, of course.
Use of these harder, tougher wads will also help cylinder bored guns to some extent. How deeply you slit the wads also makes a difference in pattern density
especially in non-choked guns.
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Aye Daryl, I like Mr Flintlock lube. When I get more time I plan to experiment more with the length of the wad slit. I tried the same load column w/plastic wad and magnum # 5 and # 6 shot but did not get near the dense pattern.
Right now I am interested in other people’s experiences shooting TSS in traditional smoothbores.
Too many experiments and not enough play time.
Dan
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DanL - that is an excellent pattern you've produced with the combination you used. Excellent for turkey heads, that's for sure. It appears as if it should also be a good duck load to 50yards at least.
When playing with pattern tighteners, be aware that in time gone past, they were range specific. Thus, the "pattern control" cage made by Ely, shot like a slug to 50 or 60 yards, yet
delivered nice patterns for ducks at 90 to 110yrds. This particular pattern control cage, in a contest at St. Louis, way back when, & from a 14 cylinder bore SxS put 28 pellets on a card of paper 4" x 7" with one shot. Not sure, but I expect it was a normal 1 ounce charge of shot.
Ely and other companies produced other "pattern control" cages, that were for closer range shooting, like 20 yards, 40 yards, that sort of thing, all in various coloured paper wrapping.
(https://i.ibb.co/4Sxcykm/Ely-Ctg-Explanation.jpg) (https://ibb.co/7pFHchY)
(https://i.ibb.co/r4TVgnS/Ely-Ctg.jpg) (https://ibb.co/zGjz1KY)
Today, while we don't have those "cages" we can still use things like paper wraps, thicker, stiffer plastic wad columns, various length of slits on the wad column, that sort of thing. It's ALL about experimentation to find what works for you.
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https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=turkey+targets+free+printable&docid=608011591295111211&mid=DBF18DD8A022DF3B3CFBDBF18DD8A022DF3B3CFB&view=detail&FORM=VIRE
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There was a post of someone using TSS in a smooth bore without a plastic wad and he was getting very good patterns. He admitted that it damaged the bore, but with only a couple of shots a year he was ok with it. My experience with hard plastic, and paper wads with a jug choke is that they negate the choke. With paper shot cups, it's a fine line between a cup that will allow the shot to flow into the choke and one that just goes though without opening up. A 3/4" hole in the pattern paper at 30yds is a little tight. :)
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Another option is to use bismuth shot. It works just fine, without any special requirements re barrel protection. I've taken ducks, and geese with it
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I tested my TSS load again this morning.
It works!!
(https://i.ibb.co/SmzYGJy/70-A97-B8-F-B14-D-4-D85-95-AD-23-D370-FC560-E.jpg) (https://ibb.co/C9fCDW8)
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The proof is in the pudding, turkey pudding in this case. Never had it, but I'll bet it's good.
But Turkey gravy, yes indeedy.
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Nice bird Dan. I also shoot TSS out of my chambers New England Fowler. 62 bore, my load is similar to yours.
70gr Swiss 2f
Nitro card over powder
A chunk of wasp nest for cushion
Hand rolled paper shot cup out of index cards
1.5oz of #9tss
And another chunk of wasp nest for overshot
My groups are very similar to yours at thirty yds out of a cylinder bore.
Just took my first Gobbler a couple days ago at 27yds.
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Daryl, what book is that?
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Thanks everyone for the information.
Good morning @Tilefish. Congratulations on the turkey!
Also thanks for the information about your TSS load. This is the kind of first hand information for which I have been looking pertaining to the use of TSS in traditional smoothbores. When time allows, I will do more experimentation including paper shot cup/wads and various loads.
I can tell you that when my load of TSS hit that turkey at 30 yards, it looked as if you had hit Tweety bird with a baseball bat...POOF!
By the way, My turkey targets go on sale today for $10 shipped ;D All sales donated to American Longrifles
Thanks again,
Dan
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Daryl, what book is that?
The first text is from "Firearms of the American West", not sure which one, might be "1866-1894". Could be "1803-1865" though.
The second picture with the photo of the Ely Ctg. is from W.W. Greener's "The Gun and it's Development", 9th Edition. His Dad, W. Greener wrote the first few, starting in 1858.
This, of course, is originally from an earlier Edition, likely written in the 1870's.
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I have no experience with TSS in muzzleloaders but have loaded some in modern shot shells. Some of the guys selling the stuff would also include load data and components used. A lot of them included a Mylar wrap placed on the inside of the shot cup. It was reported to add additional protection of the bore. I have no idea if the wrap would work in your situation but can’t really see where it would be detrimental in the load. May be worth looking into for a little more peace of mind if you haven’t already. Oh, congrats on that nice gobbler. That had to be a hoot waiting for the smoke to clear. I agree that tss is no joke. It kills cleanly way above the shot size.
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Thanks @David G.
"That had to be a hoot waiting for the smoke to clear" Aye David, the smoke and several other turkeys scattering every direction is exhilarating!
One never gets tired of the smoke and excitement while black powder hunting.
" a Mylar wrap placed on the inside of the shot cup."
That is interesting information concerning the Mylar wrap. I need to do some reading about the Mylar and find out some more details of how they use it.
Thanks again,
DanL
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Edited
There is nothing more disappointing than calling a bird in, and when the smoke clears all you see is turkey $#@* and feathers! I think anything one can do to tighten up their patterns helps create an ethical hunt.
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Edited
….and none of the “old timers” were doing whatever it took and experimenting on ways to improve their patterns??…
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Thanks @David G.
"That had to be a hoot waiting for the smoke to clear" Aye David, the smoke and several other turkeys scattering every direction is exhilarating!
One never gets tired of the smoke and excitement while black powder hunting.
" a Mylar wrap placed on the inside of the shot cup."
That is interesting information concerning the Mylar wrap. I need to do some reading about the Mylar and find out some more details of how they use it.
DanL, a loose description of Mylar wrap being used in modern shot shells. Think of the Mylar as a thin sheet of plastic. It is trimmed to the length of the shot cup. It is also trimmed in width to where it makes one full wrap inside the shot cup. It can overlap a bit. The wrap sits directly against the inside wall of the shot cup making one full wrap and trimmed to fit in length of the shot cup. At the point when the wrap is installed in the cup you can then add the additional components to the cup. It acts as an additional barrier. Hope that helps.
Thanks again,
DanL
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Edited
….and none of the “old timers” were doing whatever it took and experimenting on ways to improve their patterns??…
Can't imagine that this was not done in the US as it was certainly done in England. The gun makers in England had patterning contests for all gauges down to 20. some of them "cheated" using
hollow wads, others with cupped wads. The contests were for pellet count and penetration as well. Greener wrote this up and also re-printed quite a few of the contest results. It's a marvelous
book, if you are interested in this sort of thing. Most of the book is geared to smoothbore shooting & only covers rifle shooting near the end of the book.
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Gentlefolks; I have apparently missed some comments that Mr. Glazener saw fit to edit out. If I have offended anyone by discussing the use of TSS in traditional smoothbore muzzleloaders, I humbly apologize. This was not my intention for this discussion.
I have been curious as to the use and affects of TSS in traditional smoothbore muzzleloaders and performed a few experiments. I presented the results of what I discovered using my equipment. I do not imply that everyone should adopt changes in their equipage.
I thank those that have been forthcoming with their information about TSS and other ways to create a better/tighter smoothbore load.
If you have personal first hand information about TSS loads in traditional smoothbore muzzleloaders, please post it here. If you do not wish to post it here then please message me through this site and we can discuss your experiences off the main board.
Kindest regards,
Dan
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Danl; I appreciate you sharing your findings and thinking out of the box, all while staying within the confines of a muzzleloader. Heck, anyone that uses primer powder is breaking away from the original thought processes. Thank you!
….and my bag of tss #9 is on the way!
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I’ve been shooting my tradegun for years, and have found small shot like #9’s are pretty hard to kill anything with. My gun is not choked, because it hasn’t been invented yet.
Hungry Horse
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Aye, Hungry Horse. I agree that #9 LEAD shot does not do much for harvesting game. However, Super 18 TSS [Tungsten Super Shot] behaves differently than lead. This discussion is not about whether folks should or should not use shot made from lead, bismuth, steel, stone or TSS, it is simply showing what TSS can do in a smoothbore muzzleloader. If one chooses to use completely traditional equipment, please have at it. I have used lead (roundballs down to #8 lead shot) in a muzzleloading flintlock smoothbore to kill most anything that walks, crawls, flys or swims that was legal for me to do so in my little hunting domain. Sometimes, however, I was wishing for a bit more uumph in my loads.
Here is some information that SOME of you might wish to read:
From the TSS manufacturer:
"At 18g/cc (about 60% denser than lead), the penetration energy is so high that it enables one to go down significantly in pellet size, to greatly increase the pellet count and pattern density, while simultaneously increasing the penetration depth of the pellets into the target."
"As for comparing 18g/cc tungsten pellets vs lead (11g/cc), a Super-18 pellet will have about the same penetration energy as a lead pellet 5 sizes larger. So, a Super-18 #9 pellet will penetrate into soft matter at approximately the same depth as a Lead #4 pellet. However, in real life scenarios, on real birds, the Super-18 will actually do better vs lead, because of hardness. It will break bones better, or any other hard material, because of it's hardness and lack of flattening out when it comes into contact with any surface."
Respectfully,
Dan
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FYI:
A Friend of mine X-rayed the above pictured turkey's breast for me.
At the distance that I shot this bird, the pattern should have fully covered its head, neck and chest area. The 1.75 OZ load of TSS that I used contained 577+ of #9 TSS pellets. We were fully expecting to see far more shot left in the breast (it is in a plastic freezer bag on the x-ray table).
One can see from the visible the shot that approximately 18-20 were left in the breast. All of the remaining 557 some odd pellets probably either missed or hit the neck and head. I suggest that a significant amount totally penetrated the breast and possibly exited the bird or possible stuck in the skin. Unfortunately, I did not save the skin & feathers.
Still playing with TSS,
DanL
(https://i.ibb.co/B6f4YYD/Breast-x-ray.png) (https://ibb.co/wQdJ22H)
image upload (https://imgbb.com/)
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Don't bite down hard on that shot.
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That is for sure Daryl.
We normally slice the breast into thin (3/16” -1/4”) strips to marinate and fry. The thin strips assist in finding the pellets. I suppose remaining pellets in the meat is a downside to using TSS.
Spittin’ out pellets,
DanL
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I would never consider this TSS stuff but its hard to argue with success. I'll stick with my nasty old lead #4s.
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Dan'l
It may be that a good bit of that small size shot got deflected by the breast feathers as well. even a pigeon will deflect some lead shot of smaller sizes.
I think your pattern on the plate would show many more hits than arrived in the meat etc.
Like Mike said, I don't like steel shot at all, and will go a long way to avoid it.
Really though, biting down on antinomy laced lead shot is no fun either!
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I used to buy shot named Blimyster, made in Alberta. It was VERY hard and really patterned nicely, better than any copper or nickle plated shot.
Biting down on shot is not fun, either.
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Dan,
I just read up the page and was mistaken on what this shot is!
Please forgive my reply above. was thinking it was a steel shot and less dense than lead.
I will go back to the beginning of the thread and read it now!
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https://www.super18tungstenshot.com/collections/frontpage
This page explains the sizes and usage of TSS shot
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#Pukka Bundook, no need for forgiveness at all. This discussion is about finding out about TSS and its potential use in a smoothbore muzzleloader. I have learned much from all of you over the years and thought I would contribute my bit. New information comes to light every day regarding historical research (HC), political correctness (PC) and materials use of our forefathers. At the same time, new inventions or material availability comes our way and we should research its potential uses for our sport as well. Even though TSS is not HC or PC or a traditional material, I believe it has a place in our sport for more effective kill potential on the beasts that we hunt.
TSS is made in roundballs also, maybe one of the bear country folks can experiment with TSS and bears ;).
Thanks @Bsharp for posting that information on TSS.
Kindest regards.
Respectfully,
DanL
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Pure lead works just fine on black bears and hardened lead works perfectly where more penetration is needed.
I would be quite resistant to using tungsten balls in any rifle of mine.
Interesting chart on it's use, though. For ducks I found #5 in lead was best for me when pass shooting and ducks
over the deec's can be 2 subsequent shots. So, if #9 TSS provides similar penetration to #4's, that size would work
just fine, then for ducks.
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Check the price before you order in a truck load….. it aint cheap!
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The advantage to TSS is that it doesn't open up like lead.
Much smaller patterns.
Some duck hunters use 1/4 or 1/3 oz in the bottom of there loads of bismuth or steel. [cost savings]
Tighter patterns, with extended range.
Really tight patterns with only TSS, the turkey hunters love the patterns, but Hate the price.
With TSS, even .410s are killing turkeys!
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Check the price before you order in a truck load….. it aint cheap!
I looked at this stuff more than 20 years a r ago when it first came out. It was very expensive then. The government effectively priced me put of shooting ducks with black powder guns. I suppose that was the whole point.
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Mike,
Same here. I saw it recently at about $219.00/five pounds. That works out to be $43,80/pound or $2.73/ounce. I might do it for turkey hunting but using a pound or two (or more) for working up a good load might be a bit pricey. However, there is no disputing some awesome of the patterning and penetration results.
J.B.
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Check the price before you order in a truck load….. it aint cheap!
I looked at this stuff more than 20 years a r ago when it first came out. It was very expensive then. The government effectively priced me put of shooting ducks with black powder guns. I suppose that was the whole point.
Same here, Mike. What got me more than the cost of steel or bismuth, was the lack of killing power. I see the tungsten works there, but I'm no longer interested in water bird shooting & we've no turkeys up here in the North.
YET!
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I get geese and ducks coming in to my beaver pond, and although I use bismuth shot, I have to say that the non lead regulations was one of the main reasons that I went to a 10 bore gun. Large sized shot and lots of it seems to work . If it weren't for waterfowl, I would have been fine sticking with my 20, since it has taken turkeys just fine.