AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Antique Gun Collecting => Topic started by: spgordon on March 30, 2023, 03:41:35 PM
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Last summer a lot of folks on this site helped me understand some of the material I was finding at the Hist. Soc. of Pennsylvania related to arms procurement--rifles and muskets--in the early years of the Revolution in Pennsylvania. I'm grateful for all that help.
The results of that research will be published in a few months--but I won't be permitted (technically) to share freely the published version of that research (since the journal controls that). However, I think I am permitted to share the proofs, which I've just received. The designers mis-matched the images to the captions, but other than that the published article will be pretty much like these proofs. It's a long article--44 pages--but if you're interested, please click on this link for the full thing & you can download from there:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/0tp2w8uy6irhweq/A%20Moravian%20Rifle%20Goes%20to%20War%202023.pdf?dl=0
Here's the first two pages:
(https://i.ibb.co/YXhnrvp/Screenshot-2023-03-30-at-8-48-58-AM-2.png) (https://ibb.co/dtDChnG)
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Thank you for sharing this. I just read the abstract and the premise is fascinating and brings a lot of questions to mind. I'm looking forward to reading the whole thing.
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Scott,
Many thanks to you for providing this to members of the ALR. We are in your debt.
Kent
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Thanks for making this available, Scott.
I've only read a few pages, but sure looks interesting!
John
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I appreciate the replies--and of course I'd be very happy to hear if folks have questions or see problems or have further info. If I've learned anything over the years (and this article testifies to it by its return after a decade to the Baer/Oerter rifle) is that nothing is ever the last word and there's always much more to learn.
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Great work, Scott!!! I stand in awe of your research capabilities and your organizational skills in presenting the material. Especially like your thrust in making the Behr, Oerter gun the vehicle that moves the subject along in the paper. Very nice, and aside from bringing an important item of history to our attention, your research illuminates a virtually unrealized fact of arms acquisition in those times. Very interesting! Scott, I hope that the pleasure of finding the missing rifle falls to you for all of your work thus far for educating the rest of us.
Dick
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I hope that the pleasure of finding the missing rifle falls to you...
Hah! That'd be something. I probably wouldn't know it if I saw it. I hope if anybody finds it it will be Bob Lienemann!
I really appreciate the comment about using the Baer/Oerter gun as the "vehicle" for moving the whole subject along. That was definitely the challenge of the whole project and exactly what I aimed to do ... so I'm grateful to know that it comes across that way.
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Thank you so much for providing this! I have always been interested in the process of gunmaking, but that dims beside my interest in history. I learn alot by sitting back and 'listening' to you guys, and this will be great entertainment to read. I hope some day I will have something worthy of sharing.
Best regards,
Carl
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What a great read. Thought provoking and compelling writing. Thank you for sharing.
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Wonderful Scott! Thank you so much!
dave
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Scott, I will always remember your email back in summer 2010 that while researching the attorney Jasper Yeates, you saw the name Christian Oerter in a letter in old German script, with "This voucher was to show what B. Barr paid for his riffle." What a discovery to go with several known Oerter rifles at that time, and the inventories from the C's Spring gunstocking shop!
We are so fortunate that you have brought your research and writing skills to bear on these early arms and their makers for more than a decade. I second Dick's comments, and this rifle for Baer certainly carries your story. It is amazing how much we've been able to discover about Oerter and the gunshops, the men and boys, and their other talents in teaching and music. Maybe we will find this rifle - if I hear of it, you'll be the first phone call.
Thanks for sharing your discoveries! Bob
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thank you for posting this Scott!
would you please post or PM details on obtaining the printed version from the journal.
thank you again
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Scott , I finished reading your research document today. Thankyou for sharing it with us. I know you mentioned an example of a several individuals who resisted surrendering their arms but it's hard not to believe that their wasn't some level of resistance from most persons, non associators and disaffected persons . I wonder what level of pressure was exerted on those individuals when the collectors came knocking on the door. They would have been left without a gun to hunt with, dispatch livestock or defend themselves.
As to to Benjamin Baer's rifle , it's already amazing you've found 2 references to the same rifle. I suppose we'd need to see a reference to Benjamin Bear on the rifle as we could almost expect most all of his 1775 and previous production could have been surrendered for the war effort so military marking alone, as in Traille would not provide any definitive proof.
The KRA books along with your research, getting this story out to the public and being read by just the right person may be the lead needed to locate this rifle it it exists. Wouldn't that be something.
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Thanks for reading, Tom. It is hard to know what would give away the Baer rifle if somebody did come across it--a rifle with a double trigger and silver wire and ... some resemblance to other Oerters? I don't think it would say "1773" on it, as other rifles say "1774" and "1775," but only because no other Oerter rifles marked "1773" have shown up. The whole matter of when & why he began to date rifles, if it was indeed Oerter dating them, is so mysterious.
I am still amazed at stumbling across the Zantzinger receipt, ten years after first finding that Oerter letter--especially since that Zantzinger receipt was amongst 50,000 or more images I was scrolling through on reel after reel after reel of microfilm during COVID years. (Not good on the eyes.) And it's equally amazing that the receipt even mentioned, on the reverse, that Baer was paid for the rifle!--since that documents that the rifle didn't make it back to him. I've found a lot of interesting stuff over the years, only a bit of it related to gunmaking activities, and I don't think in a single case was I looking for the thing that I stumbled across. It's amazing how much has survived from 250 years ago!
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I know you mentioned an example of a several individuals who resisted surrendering their arms but it's hard not to believe that their wasn't some level of resistance from most persons, non associators and disaffected persons . I wonder what level of pressure was exerted on those individuals when the collectors came knocking on the door. They would have been left without a gun to hunt with, dispatch livestock or defend themselves.
Oh--and, yeah, I think you're right. Nobody would have wanted to give up his arms. Everybody had the weapon for some reason and giving it up meant that they would no longer have it for that reason--whether protection, hunting, farmwork, etc.
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Given the existing example of the Oerter/Marshall rifle, (the Griffin gun) there is a fair chance that the Baer rifle will have the owner's name on the lid of the patch box providing that it is made of brass. So, where might it be?
Dick
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To Tom's point about reluctance to give up private arms, here are a few notes from the Moravians in North Carolina at that same time.
1775 Aug 9 “The guns which are in town should also not hang in sight . . . The Brethren who have guns in their houses shall be asked to keep them hidden.”
1776 “Among other things all arms were forcibly taken from the Non-Associators . . .The worst of it was that this seizing of guns took place several times, each time by a new officer with new ideas.”
1776 Feb 24 “Capt. Volp visited our English Settlement, and took their guns and the little powder they had . . . for which the Captain gave him a receipt.”
1776 Feb 28 “We visited Christian and George Frey. Both men were still grieving over the loss of their guns.”
1776 May 5 “Brother Pfaff was minded to go to Salisbury, to try to regain his gun, but was advised not to do this, as it might harm all of us.”
1776 Jul 20 “We heard that George Frey came home yesterday, quite confused, and gave his wife no sensible answer, only took his gun and said “I must go, I am a Liberty Man.” He said that while he was in Salisbury Capt. Ekels, who needed more rifles and fowlers, had ordered him to go and get some from men who still had them, and bring them to him.”
Most of these comments came from small farming communities outside Salem, where an arm was valuable for the uses Tom mentioned. Bob
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Wow, that is a Great piece of work, not a one time read. I cannot imagine the volume of works that it took to get there. Thank You for posting.
Tim
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This thread is just one example of why this site is great. Thanks to all that make it so.
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Scott,
Wonderful work ! A part of our history that most students (we all are students) do not really know.
Richard.
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Given the existing example of the Oerter/Marshall rifle, (the Griffin gun) there is a fair chance that the Baer rifle will have the owner's name on the lid of the patch box providing that it is made of brass. So, where might it be?
Not to be a Debby Downer, but I thought I should mention that it's possible that the Oerter/Baer rifle never did make it back from war--that it was damaged/destroyed on the battlefield. Possible, though I hope not!
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Article (corrected version) finally out--and Pennsylvania History has chosen to make it freely accessible for three months.
You can read it online or press PDF to download a copy:
https://scholarlypublishingcollective.org/psup/pa-history/article/90/2/155/352020/A-Moravian-Rifle-Goes-to-War-Disarming-and-Arming
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Thanks for sharing and beautifully written article.
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I've taken the time over the past two weeks to read this fine and very informative article, by our friend Scott, multiple times. My domestic supervisor has remarked, "Are you reading that again!!?" It is worth a very close read for many reasons.
One of the references cited in Note #4, an article in the Wyoming Law Review by Joseph Greenlee, deserves a close read as well, as I believe that some situations noted by Greenlee may have a direct correlation to our era.
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Scott, did you look into whether the son Martin Baer was also a non-associator? In other words, is it possible that the rifle “officially” had to be purchased by the captain, but went to war in the hands of Martin Baer - if Martin was under his command?
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Scott, did you look into whether the son Martin Baer was also a non-associator? In other words, is it possible that the rifle “officially” had to be purchased by the captain, but went to war in the hands of Martin Baer - if Martin was under his command?
Dave, thanks for the comment. I'm not sure I understand it, though. Do you mean that Zantzinger purchased it as a sort of an "insurance" policy for Baer--since only by purchasing it (or, more precisely, guaranteeing Baer would be compensated for the rifle if it wasn't returned to him) could Baer receive the value of the rifle if it were destroyed in war? That's a very interesting idea.
But I don't think captains would have done this? Many soldiers brought their own weapons to war. The captains were buying these arms to outfit the others, who didn't have weapons or didn't/couldn't bring them. This was an inequity (somewhere in the article I quote somebody who said so at the time) but it was what happened: the soldiers who brought their own arms to war risked something (financially) that the others didn't. If Martin Baer were going to fight, he would have just brought his own weapon with him. It would have been highly unusual (I don't know of another case) for the local government to reimburse the soldier for the value of the arm that he carried.
Let me know if I'm missing your point.
[Martin Baer was listed as a non-associator in Hempfield Township, so he didn't go to war.]
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Scott, thanks, I think I was just reading more into other possibilities than there are. You sum things up very nicely. Great work!