AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Antique Gun Collecting => Topic started by: Ats5331 on April 26, 2023, 11:10:01 PM
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Good afternoon gentlemen,
Bought this Fowler at an auction a few months ago. It looks like there has been repair to the forestock and lock panel, but the buttstock of the gun is untouched.
No signature on barrel, but a nice octagon to round original. Tang screw looks to be a modern replacement.
I had a fellow KRA member attribute it as early Lehigh. Perhaps 1770s.
A penny for your thoughts! There are some bucks county characteristics to the incised carving. Fleur de lis are present on backend of lock panels and at comb terminus. Stock looks like bucks to me, but I could be wrong.
(https://i.ibb.co/R0whT4Z/B4117-DE4-5-AA7-48-C4-8-A52-19-EFE2747-D8-C.jpg) (https://ibb.co/6PCv0JV)
(https://i.ibb.co/QJcKZyS/29007012-09-AD-44-CB-B00-B-56-BFEB845066.jpg) (https://ibb.co/PrY6RqX)
(https://i.ibb.co/gRmz5GM/CE20-C6-E1-2877-42-F5-8-DA2-F0-A34-ED8706-A.jpg) (https://ibb.co/3C4BDwy)
(https://i.ibb.co/w7nmX1C/99-D7-D730-2-E45-457-F-9-AB2-57-DCE755-E3-AD.jpg) (https://ibb.co/gd0KpCw)
(https://i.ibb.co/4f78Mvb/0-CE1243-C-68-EB-4-B64-B167-A74673-BF8-F12.jpg) (https://ibb.co/rtmxM8B)
(https://i.ibb.co/mzccksX/8-CBDA111-947-B-44-EF-AAE9-9-C46216-C9118.jpg) (https://ibb.co/kcSSjn9)
(https://i.ibb.co/qdrpFsX/51-CC3-DF6-1280-499-E-BCC0-184-EFAEE2242.jpg) (https://ibb.co/dr5DJ21)
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Super cool wherever it was made. Son red of those builders never went to “schools”!
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Nice Catch !! Grip rail guard, cheek rest. Is there a rear sight? Oct to round barrel? :-\
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Definitely Bucks.
Very nice.
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Nice Catch !! Grip rail guard, cheek rest. Is there a rear sight? Oct to round barrel? :-\
Rear sight is on barrel, yes! Nice Octagon to Round barrel with patina on it. The stock shape and incised carving designs scream bucks to me
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I think it's definitely Bucks, probably immediately post-war or thereabouts in the 1780s.
I believe this is the same guy:
(https://i.ibb.co/N63Gm9H/unk-bucksbutt2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/JRdSyvM)
(https://i.ibb.co/KmR1m7t/unk-buckscheek.jpg) (https://ibb.co/zNjkNb3)
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I think it's definitely Bucks, probably immediately post-war or thereabouts in the 1780s.
I believe this is the same guy:
(https://i.ibb.co/N63Gm9H/unk-bucksbutt2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/JRdSyvM)
(https://i.ibb.co/KmR1m7t/unk-buckscheek.jpg) (https://ibb.co/zNjkNb3)
Eric, do you know where that photo is from? Or the maker please? Thanks
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I took them probably 20 years ago. A friend who is now deceased temporarily had the gun. We both felt it was clearly a Bucks piece, possibly early enough to be War era but most likely 1780s following the War. I have a few more pics, will post. It has a funny little face carved forward of the guard, looks like an indian. The barrel is oct/rd and as best as I recall, was @47-48" long. The piece was quite heavy - thick wall barrel.
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I took them probably 20 years ago. A friend who is now deceased temporarily had the gun. We both felt it was clearly a Bucks piece, possibly early enough to be War era but most likely 1780s following the War. I have a few more pics, will post. It has a funny little face carved forward of the guard, looks like an indian. The barrel is oct/rd and as best as I recall, was @47-48" long. The piece was quite heavy - thick wall barrel.
Thank you, Eric. Sorry to hear your friend passed. The Fowler I have is slender, slim piece with a 43” barrel. No face carved on this one. Has a decent pull though. It’s really joy to carry. Very light, only about 5 lbs 10oz
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Strikes me as having 'Bucksian' features and a darn nice gun at that. Looks like that architectural style and the carving is incised which seems to be the most favored kind. Good piece and am glad that you found it. Thanks for posting the good photos and letting us have a look.
Dick
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(https://i.ibb.co/JcHchNN/unk-bucksbutt.jpg) (https://ibb.co/S6B6L22)
(https://i.ibb.co/tQJtsp2/unk-buckscheek2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/sbVGw91)
(https://i.ibb.co/2YBcDxh/unk-bucksface.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Lhf9LmR)
(https://i.ibb.co/sQ3F286/unk-bucksfaceclose.jpg) (https://ibb.co/S0vKPFd)
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(https://i.ibb.co/bLdV1s4/unk-bucksfore.jpg) (https://ibb.co/q918BNH)
(https://i.ibb.co/sVpSytk/unk-bucksnose.jpg) (https://ibb.co/pL6DJnG)
(https://i.ibb.co/hyH0BR5/unk-bucksside.jpg) (https://ibb.co/nbfp7s2)
(https://i.ibb.co/TbyJT0k/unk-buckstop.jpg) (https://ibb.co/NmRf3Ns)
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Sorry about the poor quality of the photos but it was a long time ago with a little camera and it was a rainy day. The only way I could get decent light was to try to get photos out under a front porch roof of a hunting cabin. It was Rich Hujsa that had it. The story as I remember it was that he was at some folk festival or something down around Kutztown and there was a "little old lady" dressed up in colonial clothes, leading a mule, and she was carrying this thing that was as big as she was. As I said, it's a heavy sucker (look at the muzzle photo and you can see why). **I think** the entire lock was missing but I'm not sure - might have been just converted or something, I don't remember exactly now, but Rich told her if she let him borrow it he'd do the lock over which he did. That's about all I remember.
I was particularly interested in this one because the little face is CLEARLY an indian, no doubt there.
I don't think there's any doubt that your piece and this one were made by the same guy. I also like if you look closely how the carved detail around the tail of the lock panels looks like a little face with arms thrown up in the air! haha, it really does.
The stock work is quite accomplished but his carving seems wild and wooly, very freeform and "quick" to my eye.
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(https://i.ibb.co/JcHchNN/unk-bucksbutt.jpg) (https://ibb.co/S6B6L22)
(https://i.ibb.co/tQJtsp2/unk-buckscheek2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/sbVGw91)
(https://i.ibb.co/2YBcDxh/unk-bucksface.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Lhf9LmR)
(https://i.ibb.co/sQ3F286/unk-bucksfaceclose.jpg) (https://ibb.co/S0vKPFd)
Thanks, Eric. Really neat Liberty head on that one. I think it’s the same maker for sure, mine looks a bit more rudimentary ? I think the stock shape on the one in the photos looks a bit more Fowler like too.
Anybody have any info on a maker? Thanks!
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Love your great old Fowler. Nice to see you guys posting some eye candy recently. Condition of your Fowler looks outstanding. Hope you can figure out the maker. Bringing it to KRA?
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Love your great old Fowler. Nice to see you guys posting some eye candy recently. Condition of your Fowler looks outstanding. Hope you can figure out the maker. Bringing it to KRA?
Thank you, sir! Yes, i plan to bring it to the show. It’s got a great feel to it. Very nice shape!
Will you have a table?
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I now have the trigger guard for the top rifle in case anyone wants to repop that gun.
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Very cool. Thanks for sharing. I especially like the elongated tang carving ! Lots of whimsy on this gun.
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So on the piece that I posted, I'm thinking the guard/sideplate/buttplate are British and may have been recycled off something. Anyone have any ideas as to what?
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Those are absolutely beautiful guns. Is it safe to assume by the carving that the man who made them had some sort of connection with other makers in the area? That carving is popular with Lehigh and Moravian guns.
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Any specs on the first gun?
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So on the piece that I posted, I'm thinking the guard/sideplate/buttplate are British and may have been recycled off something. Anyone have any ideas as to what?
Some sort of English fowling gun. But I think these mounts may have possibly been commercially available.
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So on the piece that I posted, I'm thinking the guard/sideplate/buttplate are British and may have been recycled off something. Anyone have any ideas as to what?
Some sort of English fowling gun. But I think these mounts may have possibly been commercially available.
I agree with Mike. I think these were probably commercially available parts that the gunsmiths could use and eliminate time of casting their own.
Mike, I may take you up on a guard casting. I like the way this gun handles and may duplicate it, but make it a rifle.
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Any specs on the first gun?
What specs you looking for? I would be happy to take measurements. It’s very sleek and pulls up well.
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Any specs on the first gun?
What specs you looking for? I would be happy to take measurements. It’s very sleek and pulls up well.
Width and height of buttplate, length and breech and muzzle diameter of barrel, bore diameter, rifled or smooth, rear sight or not. Thanks
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Any specs on the first gun?
What specs you looking for? I would be happy to take measurements. It’s very sleek and pulls up well.
Width and height of buttplate, length and breech and muzzle diameter of barrel, bore diameter, rifled or smooth, rear sight or not. Thanks
AND, drop at comb and heel. Length of pull.
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Very nice fowler, thanks for sharing photos.
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Any specs on the first gun?
What specs you looking for? I would be happy to take measurements. It’s very sleek and pulls up well.
Width and height of buttplate, length and breech and muzzle diameter of barrel, bore diameter, rifled or smooth, rear sight or not. Thanks
AND, drop at comb and heel. Length of pull.
My in laws are in, so measurements will come at end of weekend!
@Mike if you use this for the next build from a plank class, I need a commission haha😂
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Great looking fowler, thanks for sharing your photos.
What are the measurements of the lock?
Are any markings present on the inside of the lockplate? Photos of the interior of the lock?
Thanks in advance!
Kent
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Just a few thoughts. I agree that your gun is certainly within the Bucks Co. classification, I feel that the original maker lived on the north western edge of the area associated with the Bucks Co. school. His carving is generally along the lines of what one would expect to see on a Bucks Co. piece, there is an influence from over in Berks Co. perhaps one of the Angstadts. Over the years I have seen and handled a number of "Bucks Co." guns that showed a lot of influence from other areas. Northern Bucks Co. guns often show elements from Lehigh Co. This maker seemingly went his own way with the carving while adhearing to Bucks Co. archetecture. That is my thoughts, I have been wrong before. Ron
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Just a few thoughts. I agree that your gun is certainly within the Bucks Co. classification, I feel that the original maker lived on the north western edge of the area associated with the Bucks Co. school. His carving is generally along the lines of what one would expect to see on a Bucks Co. piece, there is an influence from over in Berks Co. perhaps one of the Angstadts. Over the years I have seen and handled a number of "Bucks Co." guns that showed a lot of influence from other areas. Northern Bucks Co. guns often show elements from Lehigh Co. This maker seemingly went his own way with the carving while adhearing to Bucks Co. archetecture. That is my thoughts, I have been wrong before. Ron
I agree with you completely.
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Just a few thoughts. I agree that your gun is certainly within the Bucks Co. classification, I feel that the original maker lived on the north western edge of the area associated with the Bucks Co. school. His carving is generally along the lines of what one would expect to see on a Bucks Co. piece, there is an influence from over in Berks Co. perhaps one of the Angstadts. Over the years I have seen and handled a number of "Bucks Co." guns that showed a lot of influence from other areas. Northern Bucks Co. guns often show elements from Lehigh Co. This maker seemingly went his own way with the carving while adhearing to Bucks Co. archetecture. That is my thoughts, I have been wrong before. Ron
Interesting thoughts, Ron. I appreciate it! I would love to nail down this “mystery maker!”
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Measurements as requested:
LOP: 13.5"
Drop at Comb: 1.38"
Drop at Butt (Top): 3.25"
Drop at Butt Heel: 7.75"
Breech: 0.96"
Muzzle: 0.60"
Bore: .45
Rear Sight: 6.5" from Breech
Buttplate Height: 4.75"
Buttplate width: 1.75"
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Measurements as requested:
LOP: 13.5"
Drop at Comb: 1.38"
Drop at Butt (Top): 3.25"
Drop at Butt Heel: 7.75"
Breech: 0.96"
Muzzle: 0.60"
Bore: .45
Rear Sight: 6.5" from Breech
Buttplate Height: 4.75"
Buttplate width: 1.75"
Thanks!
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Thanks here too. Looks like it will be a cheek buster with those measurements.
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Thanks here too. Looks like it will be a cheek buster with those measurements.
Is your experience that bucks guns are cheek busters, Mike? I was thinking about trying to make a duplicate, but as a rifle
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My experience is anything with less than 1 1/2 inches of drop at the comb will hit you under the cheek bone. Cast off will help eliminate that as well as a skinny comb. I made a Lehigh with an 1 3/8 at the comb and it worked, but I don't know why, none of the others I made with that little drop worked.
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Typically lehigh combs fall forward from the high point which is further back, above the cheekpiece, than something like a Bucks rifle which has a straighter comb line. So with a lehigh, as the gun recoils backward and upward, at the same time your cheek may move forward slightly (depending upon how you shoot) and the comb movement is falling away as it moves upward. JMHO. they can still be cheek busters too if you don't have enough drop to begin with. A lot of the old ones that I've shouldered sure would have left me with a melon on my cheek.