AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Antique Gun Collecting => Topic started by: Splitear on May 01, 2023, 05:45:24 AM
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My first antique gun. It’s been refinished somewhere along the way, and I’m well pleased with it. Looking forward to patterning it and the hopefully taking a turkey with it. If anyone has information about the maker, I’d welcome it.
(https://i.ibb.co/gdcpBw7/IMG-2172.jpg) (https://ibb.co/vhMGKmB)
(https://i.ibb.co/8xLDF0s/IMG-2173.jpg) (https://ibb.co/7pdJ7XC)
(https://i.ibb.co/rtbdFmg/IMG-2174.jpg) (https://ibb.co/SxQf5P2)
(https://i.ibb.co/0rxDkVj/IMG-2175.jpg) (https://ibb.co/kXtHp6g)
(https://i.ibb.co/CzYwRPV/IMG-2176.jpg) (https://ibb.co/MstgFBP)
(https://i.ibb.co/hM96NtG/IMG-2177.jpg) (https://ibb.co/RSbFKVX)
(https://i.ibb.co/pRsKVfM/IMG-2178.jpg) (https://ibb.co/z7L29XB)
(https://i.ibb.co/tbT9WH8/IMG-2179.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Bg59Sfq)
(https://i.ibb.co/K2JDgWY/IMG-2180.jpg) (https://ibb.co/GWq9DRX)
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That appears to be is a really well done restoration, almost like it is not a restoration, but factory new, and hasn't been touched since it was converted to percussion in the mid 1820's.
I am pretty sure that started life as a flintlock, probably mid 1810's based on the lock and engraving style. The case hardened trigger plate and separate screw in guard are late flintlock features too.
Where did you come across this?
Thanks for sharing,
Mike
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Thanks. I too think it was a FL conversion. I came across it at a gun show in Albany, NY, and found out that the seller was local and actually a supporter of my 4-H program. I touched base with him after the show and was able to have a wonderful visit with him and his wife when I stopped to purchase the gun. He said he thought the gun was restored "sometime in the "20's", but I don't know if that means 1920's or 2000's. Regardless, I'm very pleased with it.
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There is restoration and restoration which has gone too far and this is one it has removed over 150 years of history and made it something which it is not Built approximately 1830 has a percussion never a flintlock at Alnwick or the Newcastle shop in Pilgrim Street., I own its twin same bore but in original condition plus others
Feltwad
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Thanks for the info. I would love to see your gun.
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Appears to be and always was a cap-lock to me. Later on, the lock plates were level with the bottom of the bolster and they had a drip rail to protect the wood.
I would be looking forward to shooting it as well.
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Here is some information about George Davison from British Gunmakers, Vol 2, by Nigel Brown
GEORGE DAVISON, Market Pl,
Alnwick, Northumberland 1810 & 1826
also at Pilgrim St, Newcastle upon Tyne 1823 & 29
Collingwood St 1826.
Based on the engraving on the butt plate and the leaf pattern around the border of the lock, I would say this piece dates to the earlier part of of his time at Alnwick, in the early to mid 1810's.
What do the proof's look like?
Mike
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Most of his early barrels were plain iron round barrels which resembled a 10 bore musket barrel minus any proof marks only the letters of maybe the barrel maker not damascus has the one in the thread .
Feltwad
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Proofs are hard to read, but look like Birmingham.
(https://i.ibb.co/pjqJdvc/IMG-2509.jpg) (https://ibb.co/PGkwgZK)
(https://i.ibb.co/gWhpH7D/IMG-2510.jpg) (https://ibb.co/dpxq1cQ)
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Those proof marks can be a debatable question same for the name on the barrel no offence .
Feltwad
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Post-1813 Birmingham proofs.
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About 70 yeas ago I had a similar one and I never have seen another one since.I do remember the nice wood but nothing about the lock as ever being a flintlock.The one thing I do remember is that it was heavy.
Bob Roller
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About 70 yeas ago I had a similar one and I never have seen another one since.I do remember the nice wood but nothing about the lock as ever being a flintlock.The one thing I do remember is that it was heavy.
Bob Roller
This one is not heavy, only about 7.5#.
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What's the bore like?
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What's the bore like?
I don’t think I could ask for much better.
(https://i.ibb.co/qJzXdwW/IMG-3041.jpg) (https://ibb.co/xFyPDQf)
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Beautiful gun. I'd assume the stock wood is walnut on an English gun like this, but the pictures make it look a lot like mahogany in a couple of the images. Can anyone tell for sure what type of wood it is... and how you determined it?
Shelby Gallien
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English figured walnut with a bore that has been lapped out
Feltwad
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English figured walnut with a bore that has been lapped out
Feltwad
I'll bite. How can you tell the bore has been lapped? I'd sure like to see the back side of that lock too.
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English figured walnut with a bore that has been lapped out
Feltwad
I'll bite. How can you tell the bore has been lapped? I'd sure like to see the back side of that lock too.
I’ll pull it and get a photo tonight.
I don’t know anything about the barrel being lapped or really any of the restoration effort on this gun.
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Lapping them is standard procedure, I thought. A friend of mine, now past, sent a Very heavy 6 bore SxS can't remember the maker, something like "Baker"
to Holland & Holland back in 1976 for re-furbishing. The gun came back beautifully re-furbished, almost like this one but was re-bored to 5 bore and polished.
Looked splendid and almost like a new gun. Re-proofed as well. Wil shot it in turkey shoots in Smithers a few times, using 1 1/2 or 2 ounces of 7 1/2's.
There was an included letter with the gun stating never to use hot water for cleaning, only cold 'tap" water. I read H&H's letter.
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Here’s some photos of the lock.
(https://i.ibb.co/zQLDfzr/IMG-3043.jpg) (https://ibb.co/rFLNyVm)
(https://i.ibb.co/0sZzJmV/IMG-3045.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Z2KbTG1)
host pictures (https://imgbb.com/)
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Those proof marks can be a debatable question same for the name on the barrel no offence .
Feltwad
No offense taken, but are you suggesting they may be forgeries?
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Good looking lock and I have made a bunch of this style mechanism until 2019.Thanks for posting this picture of the lock and the gun.
Bob Roller
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It is not my aim to nit pick members new additions but I have restored several both George and also Williams Davison guns .On your gun restoration with parts added from other guns has gone too far which I would say has been done not too long ago maybe 20years.This gun now has lost its antique value and heritage with restoration and I say too any restores [If in doubt leave it be]
Some will like this type of restoration like yourself all I can say now the damage has been done so take the gun and shoot it and enjoy it with a load of 2.3/4 or 3 drms of powder to 1.1/4 oz shot for both clays and game
Feltwad
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It is not my aim to nit pick members new additions but I have restored several both George and also Williams Davison guns .On your gun restoration with parts added from other guns has gone too far which I would say has been done not too long ago maybe 20years.This gun now has lost its antique value and heritage with restoration and I say too any restores [If in doubt leave it be]
Some will like this type of restoration like yourself all I can say now the damage has been done so take the gun and shoot it and enjoy it with a load of 2.3/4 or 3 drms of powder to 1.1/4 oz shot for both clays and game
Feltwad
I guess I need schooled again. What parts are "new" on this gun?
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I do not think I said new parts but added parts from other guns plus other things making it a debatable issue
Feltwad
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I do not think I said new parts but added parts from other guns plus other things making it a debatable issue
Feltwad
Well ok then. What are the parts added from other guns?
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Any restorer with the knowledge and experience who has worked on antique guns etc can point to the faults of over done restoration etc. Has I said I am not going to nit pick but the restoration is within the last 20years by some one who is more associated to modern guns and chemicals plus modern trades .I am surprised that restoration had not gone further with brass inlays and carving .All I can say to the buyer now is shoot it and enjoy the gun
Feltwad
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You're not telling me anything new here. I'm quite familiar with this type of restoration
I was hoping to learn which parts were from other guns which you referred to earlier.
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Good looking lock and I have made a bunch of this style mechanism until 2019.Thanks for posting this picture of the lock and the gun.
Bob Roller
Thanks Bob. I'm new to the forum, and somewhat new to Muzzeloading in general. I have a 4-H volunteer, who has become my master "leader astrayer" in Kenyon Simpson. Seeing names like yours and Mike Brooks commenting on my post is encouraging. I have been able to shoot a couple of Mike's guns that are owned by my friend. I'm finding the muzzleloading community to be a somewhat small circle of not only talented and knowledgable folks, but also extrememly welcoming and encouraging.
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I have to ask as well as these late period guns are not what I study... what are the parts that have been added to this gun from other guns in the last 20 years?
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Has I have previous said I am not in the habit of nit picking members guns where restoration has gone too far ,but has a restorer and shooter of antique weapons for over 75 years faults to me are easy recognisable but to some no . so therefore it is not for me to question some one else's work, but lets keep it has a original .
Feltwad
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So, you are just blowing a bunch of smoke. Everybody here understands the restoration and its so obvious what has been done that you're not going to hurt anyone's feelings, including the owner.
I guess you're not sticking with the parts from other old guns statement?
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There is restoration and restoration which has gone too far and this is one it has removed over 150 years of history and made it something which it is not Built approximately 1830 has a percussion never a flintlock at Alnwick or the Newcastle shop in Pilgrim Street., I own its twin same bore but in original condition plus others
Feltwad
Feltwad,
I, and maybe others on this forum that are not familiar with this particular style longarm, would appreciate it if you could post some photos of the original condition Twin for which you are lucky enough to be the Caretaker.
Thanks in advance!
Kent
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Has to just blowing smoke it is now getting personal ,if everybody understands restoration and what has been done for which I can pull it to bits ,and not blowing smoke they is no reason for comments to go further.
Feltwad
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You are not tearing anything apart any more than coming on here and berating the restoration and not defining the parts off other guns you claim are on this piece. You have already called it out. We need it to be defined.
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I don’t “need” to know anything about what was done and not done to this gun unless I am considering buying it.
It’s a lovely looking gun. If folks want to open a new topic on the current rules of restoration, please do. Today’s rules are not the rules of the 1920s, or 1960s, or even the year 2000. What was Gospel then is heresy now, and who knows what the future holds.
My “rules” are that if the gun has an important history or is rare and valuable (>$3000) AS IS then advice can be helpful for the purpose of keeping value. If it’s worth $50,000+ AS IS then it probably has value to our history and heritage and “art”; in other words some cultural value and greater care should be taken.
If it’s a tweener, say a $6000 gun, once advice solicited is given, I’m not sure why anyone would get into a huff over what the owner does. What would it cost to have the gun built today if someone wants a shooter that looks just like this one? $6000 minimum is my guess for this gun. Its collector value may be less than that to some here because of the work done but the current owner likes it. Bully for him!
An example: I found a trade axe head at a garage sale in 1978. It was from 1690-1720 based on where it was plowed up. Then somebody used it as a splitting wedge. “Oh that’s a valuable piece of history, don’t touch it!” Not really. All the local museums have several like it. It wouldn’t sell for $100. So I forged the eye back open, hafted it, sharpened it, and it’s my regular throwing tomahawk ever since. When I die it will be scrap metal because, “restored” or not, who really needs it for history or posterity or whatever?
If it was a pipe tomahawk owned by a famous person in history or passed around at this or that big meeting, or an outstanding example of a craftsman’s work, different deal.
Perspective. Context. These things matter.
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Not knowing the condition that the OP gun was in before restoration, I can't say the approach I would have taken regarding weather or not to restore it. I generally believe that if something is in original condition, it probably ought to be left so.
However, it is nearly impossible to find a piece that is 200 plus or minus years old that is in completely original condition.
I have a silver mounted Gulley fowler that obviously was a great shooter. The barrel is in very good condition. It was built in approximately 1810, and converted to percussion by a provincial mechanic who used a drum inserted into the patent breech touch hole, probably using the gold touchhole bushing as part of the payment. The hammer was too heavy for the lock, battering the tumbler until the hammer became loose and fell off, cracking the bridle and its screws, and breaking the spring claws at some point which shattered the stock lock cut out, thereby ending the gun's service life. I suppose, since it was probably a very good shooting barrel, it was set aside to get fixed. Evidence of its utility is the blood etching on the butt plate; much game was put on someone's table with this piece. Lots of history, but it is speculative and fairly valueless
I intend to return it to its original flintlock as the lock is the most damaged component. Probably the only lock parts that will remain original will be the plate, but it will have a pan and fence added to it. If I could get it to look as new as the gun in this post, I would. But it is not in good enough same to get there, which actually makes a restoration more difficult as parts need to be finished so as not to disrupt the appearance of the piece. Right or wrong? I don't know. It seems ok to me as I will enjoy the work and reconstitute a $350 piece of junk to something that can get back to work and be enjoyed as it was intended to be.
Mike
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A original antique gun is not there to dispose has we please we hold them in trust in ,their original state to those that come after, that is words that all restoration should remember and not like some with their non original type of work.
I will not be making any more comment on this thread just hope some will think before, originally always comes first
Feltwad
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No one here needs a lecture on restoration, that is not the current question. You will not answer the question on replacement of parts after several requests. So, it appears we'll have to move on instead of learning something interesting.
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I’m pretty fond of this old gun regardless. I patterned it the other day and feel comfortable shooting at turkeys with it out to 25 yards. That makes me happy :) I’m hoping for a shot at one in the morning.
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That's what it's all about!
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Exactly - I would LOVE to own that gun in it's current condition. WOW! :o :o
Best wishes, Splitear.
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Splitear
Have you tried the gun on a number of clays yet it should shoot well with 3 drms of FFFg or medium powder to 1.1/4 oz of shot that is all I use at both game and clays using 10 bore Davison single, and less with the sxs 12 and 14
Feltwad
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Right now I have a decent turkey pattern with 80gr of 3F under a powder card, lubed wad and 1 1/2oz of #5 shot.
Once turkey season is finished up I’ll give that clay recipe a try, thanks for the recommendation.
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That looks like a fantastic gun. I spent a few weeks in Northumberland, and went to Alnwick a few times while I was there.
The butcher shop in town makes the most amazing pork and onion pies I have ever had in my life.
Alnwick castle is pretty amazing, and was one of the filming locations for Harry Potter.
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You should have brought me a pork Pie, Justin,
I miss them bad enough to make my own now!
Arthur Johnson's of Scarborough and Whitby took some beating! (North Riding)
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You should have brought me a pork Pie, Justin,
I miss them bad enough to make my own now!
Arthur Johnson's of Scarborough and Whitby took some beating! (North Riding)
Yes it is a good area for pork pies any where in the North-East UK especially if there is plenty of pork jelly around the crust
Feltwad