AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Gun Building => Topic started by: Ats5331 on July 01, 2023, 04:18:32 PM
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Hey all,
After reading the article on wrought iron barrels in MuzzleBlasts a few months back, I have become interested in using one on a future build.
Since wrought iron is becoming rarer, has anyone ever collected old pieces to take to a blacksmith and get shaped into a barrel blank? A lot of barn and house sales going on here recently and I see a lot of old iron things that got me wondering...
Anybody have experience with these types of barrels?
Thanks!
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I’ve reconditioned about 25 wrought iron barrels, freshing the rifling. If you went this route you could be all in at $300, including buying the barrel and getting existing rifling re-cut, or getting it bored as re-rifled. I think that a newly forged and bored and rifled barrel would cost 2-3 times that.
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I have an old one I suspect is hand forged wrought iron and have wondered about getting it re rifled too someday. Good to know it can be done.
Tim A
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If I were going to forge, or have forged, a wrought iron barrel, I would start with finding and procuring an old freight wagon tire. Because just any old wheel-right didn’t have the equipment to repair, and or build, freight wagon wheels. So they often were of superior quality. This extends out to the tire which is often superior wrought iron that is worked longer at the bloomery to eliminate more of the slag.
These tires/rims are about an inch thick, and around four inches wide. This means you don’t have to do a lot of reforging to make a billit thick enough, and wide enough, to forge a barrel.
Hungry Horse
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Agree for the work wagon wheel width. The quality of iron varies greatly. Some skelps will crack rather quickly when starting to roll in the swage block, throw them out the back door of the smithy! Tim Crowe, Ken Guy and I have forged a few under the tutelage of Steve Bookout and have had mixed results with iron.
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If you want to pay someone to forge , bore and rifle a barrel for you, I would think the cost would be in the neighbourhood of $ 5000 to $ 8000
It's a ton of work, and pretty much a two man job. If I wanted to go that route, I'd give either Eric Kettenburg, or Brad Emig a call, as a start. I know that Lloyd Johnston , here in Ontario has forged some , and would be a good contact up here.
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I have a few of those wheels back in the trees at my cabin. Unsure what I will do with them yet. Jim Goodieon (sp) bored and recut an old Remington barrel for me several years ago but I suspect that was a steel barrel.
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So I inherited two old wagon wheels that have iron around their edges. Pretty decent size. I don’t have any plans for them whatsoever.
Is this enough to get started? Could be a great way to preserve the iron that has been in my family for many years
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I guess another question is does any barrel maker make and sell them routinely?
And yes I saw someone on here just had one for sale. That will teach me for painting the house all day
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Agree for the work wagon wheel width. The quality of iron varies greatly. Some skelps will crack rather quickly when starting to roll in the swage block, throw them out the back door of the smithy! Tim Crowe, Ken Guy and I have forged a few under the tutelage of Steve Bookout and have had mixed results with iron.
I agree with Angus, there is a fair amount of work to just weld a barrel up, usually 3-4 hours start to finish just to weld the tube with 3 men ,
boring out the barrel Toad hall method a day,
profile the barrel draw filing 6-8 hours,
rifling the barrel 2 hrs average.
30 hrs x $75.00 hr = $2250 per barrel , makes any modern custom barrel maker a good deal.
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I own guns with wrought iron barrels as well as barrels made from bar stock. There’s no advantage to how they shoot. Outside of being able to say that my barrel is wrought iron . I can see no advantage to stocking a gun around it other than saying that this is a wrought iron barrel. EK, go ahead and shoot me down! No hard feelings!!!
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Wrought iron contains other impurities like slag (silica) and unknown others depending on the manufacturing process and source of iron or iron ore.
I would rather have modern steel as I don't care for unknown impurities and inclusions in my barrels.
Regards,
Carl
PS: I have smelted iron ore, puddle refined it over many heats, forged it into a skelp, and forge welded a barrel blank. It would take Jeff Bezos or Bill Gates to get me to do it again ::)
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And I'm okay with that 3-4 hours of Tim swinging the hammer and welding the seam shut. ;D
Can you say "Cornpatch Clinker" larger than Moonpies?
Also helps to make sure the barrel was welded with a mandrel and kept straight. If the bore gets mashed too tight while using a fuller on the flats, a whole new problem can occur trying to get the bore opened up. And yes, the silica and other unknown worldly deposits can wreck the cutting edges on drills and reamers.
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ITS work for sure to weld a barrel! When you see a skilled man weld one up and make it look easy, that's experience learned from mistakes. You welded that last barrel of yours up just fine. JB and I need to finish rebuilding the forge so we can we finish the outside flats on a couple of barrels, then on to the boring. I haven't finished setting up the gundrill yet, Regular work got in the way. Cheers
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At The risk of sounding " Negative" here and getting my post deleted.
I want to ask the less than obvious question perhaps changing the direction of the conversation.
You are planning to trust your safety and perhaps your life to a barrel made from wrought iron.
Anyone who understands metal knows wrought iron to be inconsistent, The finished barrel has a seam that is joined under primitive conditions of a coal fire and slag. There is a high risk of failure at some point due to rust intrusion in places that at the time it was created were ok.
By comparison Today we have products like CDS tubing which is forged by piercing a solid mild steel rod created in sterile to controlled atmospheric conditions and DOM which is created by similar process under controlled atmospheric conditions and perfect welds tested by modern scientific equipment. but everyone chokes about using it.
Reconditioning an old barrel by removing material doesn`t make any sense its an emotional thing not a rational decision.
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No different than shooting Damascus
Been doing it for 40 plus years. No big deal. I hope no one is offended. :D
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Goo,
It the fires of Toad Hall we confirm the welds when welding the barrel several times , its not a one and done, after the barrel is complete, we proof test the barrel, several times. There are things to look for when one is welding the tubes that show the metal is becoming one solid union and not a unwelded seam, only learned by experience. Good wrought iron is a dream to weld , a good barrel smith can weld poorer quality WI but its work. Angus, Ken Guy, Dan Thompson , JB Bauer and others that have been to Bookie's Barrel welding classes can attest to this.
Tim
P.S. no offense taken with questions about wrought iron or its suitability for barrel welding, or how to weld it up.
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At The risk of sounding " Negative" here and getting my post deleted.
I want to ask the less than obvious question perhaps changing the direction of the conversation.
You are planning to trust your safety and perhaps your life to a barrel made from wrought iron.
Anyone who understands metal knows wrought iron to be inconsistent, The finished barrel has a seam that is joined under primitive conditions of a coal fire and slag. There is a high risk of failure at some point due to rust intrusion in places that at the time it was created were ok.
By comparison Today we have products like CDS tubing which is forged by piercing a solid mild steel rod created in sterile to controlled atmospheric conditions and DOM which is created by similar process under controlled atmospheric conditions and perfect welds tested by modern scientific equipment. but everyone chokes about using it.
Reconditioning an old barrel by removing material doesn`t make any sense its an emotional thing not a rational decision.
From my discussions with gunsmiths and blacksmiths while working at Williamsburg... and welding barrels with Jon Laubach while there: When properly forge welded there is no discernable seam, the edges become one. The forge weld occurs where the iron is in a plastic state and the hammering forces the plastic edges together... The use of coke during the welding, along with a liberal application of flux, does a good job of keeping things clean at the join and in the defects. Such a weld is more properly thought of as a pressure weld than a fusion weld. Splitting hairs, it is not really a fusion weld as if the iron in the weld were truly in a liquid state it would fall into the forge and/or splatter all over the place when hammered rather than become part of the weld. Witness that what does splatter during the forge welding is not part of the weld.
I recall wet coal sitting at the sides of the fire while the impurities were slowly cooked away. The coke formed in that process was then incorporated into the fire for the welding. I also recall cracks in the iron being fluxed with borax and welded at various points in the process and flux applied during the edge welding. There were constant inspections during the making of a barrel from the selection of a bar of iron through the proof firing... Granted CW has probably adhered to best practices since Wallace first did his thing there but the guild systems and government contractors surely had their protocols also.
While the process may seen crude to modern man there was a lot of science and care in their methods... All that said, that original care doesn't guarantee that a 200-300 year old barrel is any good for shooting today... ;)
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For those looking to dive in deeper in to old research of wrought iron barrel making, French Vs English barrel making,
the Book Quest for the Indian Trade Gun by Robert M Heath is well worth reading.
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IF it is about wrought iron vs modern steel, why not have a bar of wrought made in to a barrel using modern methods?
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There are a few of the barrelmakers that will do just that if you supply the round iron rod. I've still got a few stashed for that very purpose. Most that I've used, or seen, have been either Ed Rayl or Bob Hoyt. Getz barrel has also done it when they were still functional and I'm sure one or two others could easily do it as well.
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There are a few of the barrelmakers that will do just that if you supply the round iron rod. I've still got a few stashed for that very purpose. Most that I've used, or seen, have been either Ed Rayl or Bob Hoyt. Getz barrel has also done it when they were still functional and I'm sure one or two others could easily do it as well.
Where the rods difficult to source? I must be looking in the wrong places because I haven't come across either suitable rods or old barrels suitable for rejuvenating. Granted, I do most of my searching via the comfort of my computer desk.
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IF it is about wrought iron vs modern steel, why not have a bar of wrought made in to a barrel using modern methods?
I think Mark Sage did exactly that. I believe he had Ed Rayl make the barrel. Mr. Sage wrote this up in a two-part serialized article in Muzzleloader magazine, maybe two years ago (?). I can look it up, if anybody needs to know. Mr. Sage had a rifle built around this barrel and used it to shoot a bear. As mentioned previously, there was another article or two about wrought iron barrels in Muzzle Blasts around the same time, but by a different author.
I don't remember where Mr. Sage obtained his wrought iron bar. There was some initial concern about possible inclusions in the metal, but the project turned out well.
I've enjoyed reading the responses on this thread written by those who have actually made forged barrels. Blacksmiths in the dim past were admired, sometimes feared, and occasionally considered outcasts because of their perceived wizardry. I did a couple of blacksmithing classes and hammered out a couple of wrought iron nails, and I think I might have made a screwdriver. That was about the limit of my skills. A wizard with the hammer I am not.
One final thought concerns the comments about using wagon tires. Old wagon wheels have some value, too. I would be reluctant to go knocking them apart unless the wood was completely shot.
Best regards,
Notchy Bob
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I had bought a bunch from Brad Emig, who was selling iron ??? years ago after I believe he had bought a portion of an old bridge that was being torn down. I bought round rod and also flat bar from him but I used up all of the bar. Also there was a company out near P'burgh somewhere that was selling dimensional bridge iron for a time and I bought some from them although that was @20 yrs ago and I no longer remember who they were. Also the 'Real Wrought Iron' company made a go of it with newly smelted iron but they collapsed relatively quickly.
Brad was selling it at Dixon's and he was right next to me. Don't know if he still sells it but all I can say is that Shane was a teenager if that gives you some time perspective!
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Guys,
One way to do it.
https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=31614.msg303333#msg303333
And, here is another.
https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=19391.msg183213#msg183213
Jim
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Goo,
It the fires of Toad Hall we confirm the welds when welding the barrel several times , its not a one and done, after the barrel is complete, we proof test the barrel, several times. There are things to look for when one is welding the tubes that show the metal is becoming one solid union and not a unwelded seam, only learned by experience. Good wrought iron is a dream to weld , a good barrel smith can weld poorer quality WI but its work. Angus, Ken Guy, Dan Thompson , JB Bauer and others that have been to Bookie's Barrel welding classes can attest to this.
Tim
P.S. no offense taken with questions about wrought iron or its suitability for barrel welding, or how to weld it up.
Thank you for not being offended. As I understand your reply the barrel manufacturing process involves involves proofing and testing to reveal flaws and pushing the product to point of failure which reasonably allows us to use the barrel (this is the caveat) At the time of manufacture it passed testing.
I assume reconditioning old barrels follow the same rules which leads to the follow up question which may be obvious to those who work with forge welded skelp into tubes. why not do this with low carbon 1018 steel? which has very similar properties to wrought iron minus the wood grain effect.
My previous comment also questioned, Why is the new technology of joining modern flawless material into heavy wall tubing in a controlled environment to produce a joined seam that is undetectable and passing proofing test not acceptable? While an old technology to produce the same thing under with the chances of contamination being much higher passing proofing test acceptable ?
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Goo,
It the fires of Toad Hall we confirm the welds when welding the barrel several times , its not a one and done, after the barrel is complete, we proof test the barrel, several times. There are things to look for when one is welding the tubes that show the metal is becoming one solid union and not a unwelded seam, only learned by experience. Good wrought iron is a dream to weld , a good barrel smith can weld poorer quality WI but its work. Angus, Ken Guy, Dan Thompson , JB Bauer and others that have been to Bookie's Barrel welding classes can attest to this.
Tim
P.S. no offense taken with questions about wrought iron or its suitability for barrel welding, or how to weld it up.
Thank you for not being offended. As I understand your reply the barrel manufacturing process involves involves proofing and testing to reveal flaws and pushing the product to point of failure which reasonably allows us to use the barrel (this is the caveat) At the time of manufacture it passed testing.
I assume reconditioning old barrels follow the same rules which leads to the follow up question which may be obvious to those who work with forge welded skelp into tubes. why not do this with low carbon 1018 steel? which has very similar properties to wrought iron minus the wood grain effect.
My previous comment also questioned, Why is the new technology of joining modern flawless material into heavy wall tubing in a controlled environment to produce a joined seam that is undetectable and passing proofing test not acceptable? While an old technology to produce the same thing under with the chances of contamination being much higher passing proofing test acceptable ?
I and perhaps others don’t know how to navigate and distinguish between different methods and qualities of DOM tubing. There has been criticism of DOM tubing that may be based on one type or another, and the non-engineer, non-metallurgist doesn’t know what’s what snd lumps them all together as suspect. Though some high quality builders use barrels fashioned from DOM barrels. I have such a barrel on my rack, from Ken Netting.
The barrel safety topic has many confusing facets.
1. The traditional method of making barrels, used exclusively for many hundreds of years (forge welding) is considered suspect by some. Yet many of us shoot original ML rifles and shotguns with forged wrought iron barrels.
2. Some people throw around the term “barrel steel” meaning steel intended for high pressure modern cartridge guns and state that most ML barrels are not made of “barrel steel”. True but in my view, not entirely relevant to low pressure guns shooting black powder.
There are more factors, including some failure of ML barrels in the 1970s and 1980s, primarily made by deep drilling of drawn octagon barrels by Douglas. Before, during, and since that period tens of thousands of “non-barrel steel” barrels by many famous makers have been used without incident. Failures have occurred, just as they have with cartridge guns with barrels of 4140, etc. All it takes is operator error.
What few people who call for “barrel steel” barrels in muzzleloaders or warn against all forms of DOM tubing address are these 2 questions:
A) What is the margin between pressure created in a muzzleloader loaded with black powder and the failure pressure of the barrel material being used?
B) What is the margin between pressure created in a center fire rifle and the failure pressure of the barrel material being used?
It’s all been addressed before, several times a year. But, you can see that it’s confusing to many. Most of us purchase available barrels from established makers and choose to not over-think it.
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I had bought a bunch from Brad Emig, who was selling iron ??? years ago after I believe he had bought a portion of an old bridge that was being torn down. I bought round rod and also flat bar from him but I used up all of the bar. Also there was a company out near P'burgh somewhere that was selling dimensional bridge iron for a time and I bought some from them although that was @20 yrs ago and I no longer remember who they were. Also the 'Real Wrought Iron' company made a go of it with newly smelted iron but they collapsed relatively quickly.
Brad was selling it at Dixon's and he was right next to me. Don't know if he still sells it but all I can say is that Shane was a teenager if that gives you some time perspective!
Sounds like I'll still be on the lookout for a made barrel then. I sourced a few small pieces that I have an eye towards trying my hand at lock-making, when/if I get squared away for setting up space for that. That will probably take up all of my free time for a good long while anyway, especially accounting for botching each piece 2 or 3 times and starting over.
This all is one the biggest attractions of wrought iron barrels to my simple mind -- the fact that they're hard to come by is what makes them cool!
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Guys,
Many barrels made post 1816 and almost certainly in the percussion era were made using the Remington process. These barrels were forged without the weld seam and were quite a bit more reliable than the older forge seam welded barrels. It is interesting that E. Remington never did obtain a patent on his barrel making process, so it was quickly adopted by the Springfield and Harpers Ferry armories. Most often the Remington process barrels had an off-centered bore at the breech end and were straight sided, not tapered and flared. The armories improved the process to result in the rough forged barrel having the bore right on center and the barrel having the straight taper of a musket barrel. Technology is quite interesting.
Jim
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Goo, no worries about any questions, I don't know everything and am still learning. there are some procedures that have been learned over the centuries of barrel welding that have continued on as being tested as part of the procedures necessary to produce a good welded barrel. As Bookie would say there are many methods, French, English, Belgium and American methods to produce barrels, learn why they are used.
As far as the questions of proof and why modern steel vs wrought iron, does and doesn't or shouldn't work I can't say. That might be more of a Jim Kibler & David Crisalle answer if they want to weight in. The only thing I can offer is wrought has been used for what 5 centuries of barrel making, in forge welding its king when you have a good piece of Wrought it almost welds itself, there are lower quality iron that is weldable but takes more work. I use almost elusively wagon rims and bridge iron. Wagon rims are mixed lot , some welds easy some are like burlap needing constant closing of cracks. I have heard that borax wagon rims or freight wagon are better hadn't had the opportunity to try them out. Standard procedure out of Toad Hall Rifleshop was cut a 6" piece out of the rim and weld it into a short barrel, if it welded easily then it was marked for future barrel work and stored in the loft. The welding up of the barrel was the easy part all the other steps are some real chores and headaches. Boring the barrel ranks up there. The it does keep me out of the bars and burning coal.
Rich Pierce made some good observations in his post.
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Guys,
Many barrels made post 1816 and almost certainly in the percussion era were made using the Remington process. These barrels were forged without the weld seam and were quite a bit more reliable than the older forge seam welded barrels. It is interesting that E. Remington never did obtain a patent on his barrel making process, so it was quickly adopted by the Springfield and Harpers Ferry armories. Most often the Remington process barrels had an off-centered bore at the breech end and were straight sided, not tapered and flared. The armories improved the process to result in the rough forged barrel having the bore right on center and the barrel having the straight taper of a musket barrel. Technology is quite interesting.
Jim
Jim, I heard rumors you make your own barrels. I may have missed this in an earlier post, but have you made a wrought iron? Apologies if this is repetitive question
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Guys,
Yes, I have made forge welded wrought iron barrels. I made three barrels from a really nice wagon wheel rim that had such well refined wrought iron that I had to acid etch a sample to confirm the structure. The process i used was gas welding, so it was not strictly 18th c style. I no longer do the forge welding, it is more of a young man's job and i am 72 - too old. Now I refurbish, ream and rifle original wrought iron barrels using oniy 18th c. period tooling.
Jim
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So I inherited two old wagon wheels that have iron around their edges. Pretty decent size. I don’t have any plans for them whatsoever.
Is this enough to get started? Could be a great way to preserve the iron that has been in my family for many years
It would be enough to get started to use those wagon rims, BUT depending on the iron quality could work. I would recommend cutting a 6" chunk out of both rims and testing them to see if they weld up ok. I usually mark them so I know what came from which rim. The last barrel Angus welded up beautifully, was out of a particular rim that we had cut a 6" piece that welded like a dream, and was so marked as premium WI. Angus forged that barrel by himself with only Bookie running the blower, he did weld it up without a mandrel in the bore.
I am not sure where you are located but if you are any where close to SE Wisconsin we could see about welding those 6" pieces up to see if they work. JB Bauer and I need to rebuild the forge as the firepot needs help, and we have a lot of work right now and cant start anything soon.
I would add welding the barrel from a skelp is probably the easiest part of the work.
Still a fair amount of work after that, and the more technical that happens to really make the barrel shoot great.
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I have had 2 experiences with wrought iron barrels.
One started life as a 32. Ruined bore. I drilled it and hand smooth bored it to .36 then hand rifled it and it made a fine shooter.
The other still had enough pitted rifling to carry a freshing cutter and after many a shim and many a pass it recut beautifully. Sadly it had a welding flaw mid barrel and is a patch shredder.
I really ought to put a liner in it.
Old wrought iron barrels are a $#@* shoot…..
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Wow
I didnt know that #@%$#*!;$ was a dirty word on ALR ::)
What if i had said it was a @#$%/!! Shoot ;D
Edit. Oh I got away with that one. Ha 😂
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“No different than shooting Damascus
Been doing it for 40 plus years. No big deal. ;D ;DI hope no one is offended. :D”
No offense taken Mike. My great uncle John was an engineering professor at Dartmouth, made prototypes for Winchester, and worked on the Manhattan Project (along with 10,000 other people on the latter). He was gun person and serious hunter. He shot Damascus barrels some. He said as long as you shot BP and/or kept pressures low you were probably alright. His caution regarded what went on inside the steel. The welds between layers. He noted the inside and outside could look great, but those inner welds could be corroded and weak in places. So, you take your chances and enjoy life. Heck, a meteorite could hit me tomorrow. :-). Best wishes, Marc