AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Antique Gun Collecting => Topic started by: JTR on January 28, 2010, 02:52:01 AM
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With all your guys incessantly chattering about Tennessee rifles, I guess I got won over! ;D
Couple days ago my friend had this one for sale, so I brought it home!
It’s unsigned, but by looking through the limited references I have regarding these guns, it seems it might be either a Ambrose Lawing or a Charles Bean, or I don’t know, maybe someone else?
The gun is in pretty nice condition, though not perfect. The stock is a nice piece of curly maple, and it’s had a couple pieces of wood replaced on either side of the tang, and another over the front of the lock. It also has a crack in the wrist with a couple of pins put in there to support things. The ramrod is an older replacement also.
The lock is unmarked, but is a single bolt commercial one with a couple of turkey’s stamped/engraved on the back of it. There’s no half cock position either, so the hammer is either down, or full cocked. The set trigger sets this thing off with only about a half ounce of pressure!
The barrel is 7/8” across the flats, 36 cal, and about 39 1/2” long. There’s also a small wood plug about 5/8” ahead of the rear most barrel pin, so I expect that amount has been whacked off from the rear of the barrel at some point.
Whoever made the rifle did a very nice job on the iron furniture, and it has a nice old finish to it.
All in all, I’m tickled with my new gun,,, even if it ain’t a Kentucky!
I’ve included a couple of close-up pics, so maybe one of you knowledgeable guys will be able to give a good guess as to the maker.
Thanks for looking!
John
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A real beauty with great architecture!
Thanks for the detail pics........Lynn
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JTR,
Great looking Upper E. TN rifle! Very representative of guns from this area. IMHO, looks very much like Ambrose Lawings work to me. Cheekpiece shape with 3 distinct lines, diamond shaped lockplate, trigger guard and trigger all are very similar to me. I hate to ask since you have been so kind to post the pictures but any chance of getting a close up of the entry pipe and the inside of the patchbox?
Thanks again for taking the time to post. I hope this might go to the library.
Ken
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Lucky Bugger
Bill
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Thanks guys, I'm feeling lucky allright!
I have to admit that when I first saw the rifle, I was immediately drawn to it!
Ken,
I'm recharging the camera batteries now, but will post the pics tomorrow. Do you want close-ups of any thing else?
Once it runs it's course here, I'll submit it to the library, hopefully with some better pictures.
John
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Thanks John. If possible the comb of the buttplate. The more I look the more I believe it is Ambrose or a sibling. It's a great gun in my book. Really nice!
Ken
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Fantastic rifle! Thanks for sharing pictures. The nose of the comb and the tang look very much like Ambrose Lawing or someone who apprenticed under him. I've only seen one of his rifles in person, the nose of the comb was a dead ringer for yours.
JTR, in your other post "Ambrose Lawing" you mentioned that the curly maple stock might be a negative for a Tennessee rifle, because so many were stocked in walnut. IMO, that makes it a plus, not a minus. Great rifle, whoever built it.
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Wow! That is one bad mountain rifle there! I was hoping you might bring that to the TN longrifle show in April, but might be a little far from CA.
Thanks for posting,
James
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A classic East Tennesseee rifle! IMHO no Pennsylvania rifle has architecture as dramatic as this one. It's a beauty!
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I am putting together information on these guns for a project I'm planning, down the road. I asked this once before, perhaps it was overlooked. The comb and cheek rest look long to me, maybe just the way they photograph. Is this a typical trait for the Tennessee style rifle? I really enjoy the line of these guns, thank you for showing this one.
Robby
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Robby,
Most upper E. TN guns actually have a really short wrist. Because the the upper part of stock above the cheek is concave shaped it tends to visually extend the wrist. If you lay a ruler on the top of the comb to form a line it will extend above the breech of the barrel.
As for the cheek rest. There are as many variations as you can imagine. Some short and some long. Some thick and block shaped and some very thin and dainty or even rounded. Some way back on the stock and some way forward up toward the wrist. Some don't even have a cheekrest and then there are the Soddy guns where they extend from the wrist all the way to the buttplate but they are not real defined. Depends on the builder and area the gun is from. The very pronounced cheek piece with 3 beauty lines is one of the reasons I think it is a Lawing gun or sibling or apprentice of his.
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What a fine, pristine looking Tennessee rifle. I agree - looks like Unicoi County to me as well.
Guy
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Is that a replacement guard or were they casting them back then. Just an observation.
Bill
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JTR I agree it aint no Kentucky, just one of them old iron rifles. You should dispose of it quick befor it gives you a sickness. I can give you an address to send it to. ;D All kidding aside nice rifle. I've been wanting one for some time now but can't find one I like and have the funds at the same time.
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I'm pretty sure that's a forged guard, custom made to the fit the hand-made triggers - note how the rear of the trigger plate tucks up against the rear post above the loop.
Real interesting construction too - looks like a 3 piece guard with the rear finial brazed or forge welded to the rear facing portion of the grip rail/loop section right there in front of the loop. Have any of you guys more familiar with Lawing's work seen other guns by him with this feature?
Check out how delicate the curl is on the loop too.
Guy
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While a very nice rifle, I still don't think it was made by Ambrose Lawing or his son. A rifle like this is hard,hard to even date. While Lawing would certainly be able to make a rifle this nice my humble opinion is that the rifle was made 1900-1920 leaning more to the Beans, but then it looks too nice for the late Beans. It is hard to get the feel of the gun from photos. I have seen more rifles marked Bean that I thouht someone else made than unmarked rifles that I thought a Bean made!!! But some of the Lawing stamps were very faint. Have you looked really good?
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Carper,
Why do you think 1900-1920? Good to see you posting.
Ken
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Thank you guys for all the kind words! The more I handle this rifle and admire it, the more I think I’ll be looking for another one down the road!
So here’s another handfull of pictures, most showing detail shots.
All the pics are high resolution, so if you copy them to your hard drive hopefully zooming in they will still be clear. If they don’t zoom well, I’ll be happy to send full size pics to whoever might want them.
As I said earlier, I don’t have much reference material for these guns, and am not familiar with them at all.
I have a copy from a page from Jerry Nobles books, volume 2. Page 74 has a bio of Ambrose Lawing, and a picture of one of his rifles on page 115.
In John Rice Irwin’s book Guns and gunmaking tools of Southern Appalachia, he shows a Lawing rifle on page 21, and page 22 shows a Charles Bean rifle.
These two guns look like twins to one another. According to the Bean bio, he and Lawing lived only a couple of miles apart.
For those of you familiar with them, I wonder if there are any detail difference that would differentiate one maker from the other?
Carper, No stamp, no nothing on the barrel.
John
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This handsome rifle has the things that make us love Tennessee rifles - great architecture and iron mounts. I agree with Ken and Guy that this is most likely a Unicoi County rifle. If Ambrose Lawling made it, it was one of his best efforts, but the cheekpiece is certainly suggestive of his work. Congratulations!
Wayne Elliott
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Something I have been paying attention to and notice on this rifle are whether the screws on original southern rifles were most likely indexed or not. The screws on the toe plate of this rifle appear to have been indexed with the slots running lengthwise to the toe plate. The screws on the buttplate tang appear to have been indexed crossways. The front tang bolt is lined up longways to the tang, but the rear screw in the tang (or bolt) is not. Same with the trigger guard screws, front one appears to be indexed lengthwise to the trigger guard, rear one is not.
My question for you guys that have seen a lot of original southern and Tennessee rifles. Do you think it was more common for the screws to have been indexed on these rifles or not? I'm sure some originally were and over the years got switched around, replaced, or through wear and shrinkage changed.
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Thanks Wayne and the rest of you guys! I'm pleased to be able to share it with you!
GHall, The rear screw on the trigger guard has some ooops slipped screw driver marks on it, as does the rear one on the tang, so they've been taken out before.
Judging by the way the screws on the butt plate return are filed, I'd say they were originally crosswise.
The toe plate screws look untouched.
Whether some or most Southern guns are indexed, I haven't a clue.
John
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JTR: Good luck on finding another rifle, you might look the rest of your life before you find another one as nice ! I'd have someone check that rifle out and it would be in the squirrel woods come fall. I know that you have posted pictures to death but I sure would like to an up close of the guard. To answer Ken: The thimbles and the way the edges on the ramrod inlet are so sharp, also the lock inlet , also looks like the toe and butt arent riveted together, nor the heel on the butt. I would not be the least surprised to find the guard is one piece. But I could be way off on the date, thirty years either way, but I dont think the Lawings made it. Just my guess But it is still a great rifle no matter when or who made it. Johnny
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Carper,
Hmmm, interesting.
I assumed the TG and butt plate were forged, but didn't look all that hard at them.
So, should I be able to find a weld line where you'd expect the parts to be put together?
What else can I look for?
John
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The triggerguard and buttplate look like they are forged to me. The seam on the two pieces of the buttplate looks to be tucked under the heel, which is what you would expect for this area, but with a smooth transition, not a noticeable notch on the edge when viewed from the side, like you see on some Soddy guns. On the guard, if you look close you can see what looks like at least two pieces - isn't that a seam in front of the loop (right where the rear finial piece would meet the piece that forms the grip rail? On really good forge work, it is often really hard to see evidence of rivets or pins. Check out some of the Gillespie guards for example.
John - did Lawing typically rivet the toeplate and buttplate together? Many of the east Tennessee rifles I have seen do not have that feature but I have not had the chance to handle many Lawing guns - I think I have only seen one or two up close and did not notice the toe plate
The minimal wear on this gun is unusual for a mountain rifle. The barrel looks to have been cut a bit and moved back based on the filled pin holes in the stock, which is typical.
Guy
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Thanks Ken. Another question, some of you fellows have talked of making the butt plate in two pieces, and joining them with copper rivets, or brazing. Which is more common and is there any evidence of how this one was done?
Robby
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The rivet and the braze were part of the same single process of attachment. The two pieces of the buttplate (the part that fits against the butt, and the tang/heel piece) were typically riveted only to hold the two pieces together while brazing in the forge. There are some I have seen that have no evidence of a braze line or rivets, and appear to have been forge welded. Copper rivets were sometimes used on pieces that have the bottom (toe) of the buttplate riveted to the toeplate, but these pieces were not brazed together.
Triggerguards sometimes show evidence of rivets, sometimes not. Sometimes the bow and grip rail were formed from two separate pieces, and pinned/brazed or forge welded at the back of the bow. Others had the grip rail and bow formed form one piece, with the back of the bow formed from a speparate sliver of iron notched into the underside of the bow section and brazed or soldered in place. Sometimes various sections were split or raised from a single piece of iron, and then forged and filed to shape.
Guy
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The Carles Bean in Irwin's book on page 22 has a diamond lock bolt washer thet looks a lot like this one. Also the cheek piece looks very close. I was looking at that book last night and thought it looked a lot like this one when I seen it.
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Gentlemen, it may be helpful to have photos of a signed Ambrose Lawling rifle to compare to JTR's find:
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Thanks for the pictures Wayne. That's a beauty too! Man are we Southern builders blessed this week or what. I was already tickled over John's pictures and a friend sending me some pictures of a Soddy rifle (My personal favorites) and now this.
Cheers,
Ken
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Thanks Guy. Wow, another beauty! Are the flintlock version of these rifles the same basic architecture? I have got to get A copy of Mr. Irwin's book!
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Thanks for the pictures Wayne, and that's a fine gun as well!
The construction details I see on yours are the same as on mine more or less exactly. From what I can see of the details;
They have the same triggers.
Same trigger guard.
Same small segmented hinge on the patchbox door.
Same RR entry pipe.
Same tang and screw placement.
Same butt plate.
Differences I see; The rear sight.
The lock and drum. But at this late date, he surely used commercial parts here?
In answer to Guy and Carper on the trigger guard. At the rear of the trigger loop, where the grip rail meets it, deep in that V, I see what looks like a bit of a crack between the two. Can I assume this is where the two were welded together?
Also, B.Barker points out the similarities between my gun and the Charles Bean shown in Irwins book, page 22.
As my gun is unsigned, are there any Tell tail signs to differentiate a Lawing from a Bean?
Thanks for all the help, John
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It could be indicative of the joint. Or it could be a stress crack in a section that was all forged from a single piece. Is it visible on both sides? I can't see it in the lock side photos. In either case (joint or a crack) I would think it points to it being a forged guard. If it was all forged from one piece (rear finial/loop, grip rail and bow, it's a brilliant little bit of forge work, in my opinion.
Can you see any evidence of a joint on the inside of the bow where the back of the bow meets the underside, or on the back of the bow where the grip rail meets the bow?
Guy
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John,
Of the couple of Charles Bean rifles I have seen; he used 2 pins on the ram rod thimbles and had a silver plate in the barrel. Could be coincidence or his way of doing the thimbles. I wouldn't dare unless it has 2 pins in the ram rod thimbles it's not a C Beans. Just an observation.
Keep in mind, the Bean family seems to have been pretty prolific builders to begin with. Then their production was later boosted as Carper pointed out due to their popularity, early abundance of unsigned TN rifles and the ease of adding a silver plate to a barrel.
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I heave heard that there was a cottage industry a generation or so ago involving adding a Bean signature to east TN guns, since that is what the market was seeking.
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Thanks Ken,
This one has only one pin in the RR thimbles, so I'll leave it as a possible Lawing.
Guy, I'll take a closer look at the trigger guard to see what I can find. This little crack doesn't look like anything I've seen on cast brass guards.
John
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I hope Jacob creates as much attention
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Ok. I guess over my head which may not be hard but Jacob who?
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Thanks for showing the great A.Lawing. Family members aside he is hands down my favorite old builder. I have owned about four of his guns, none nicer than the one shown. One was brass mounted ! Two were half stock. All had the stamp on the barrel. The tree boxes were identical to the one shown. The lids were almost flat ( not too different from the barn door hinge you see on south western virgina rilfles.) The unidentified rifle appears to have some convex to the portions of lid away from the hinge. It is hard to judge by pictures. Some these hill families ( like my own) made rifles from and thru several generations and generally the more modern the rifle the less some elements remained. Quite often the fit and finish are good but the style slips a little. My GGrandfather made about 150 rifles, his first(NO 1)was the one his father was working on at the time of his death in the gunshop. That was the best in style of any rifle that I have ever seen of my GGrandfather even thought it was his first ! Maybe Lawings son lost the stamp!!! Who knows but it is still about as nice as it gets but you will never know for sure who made it. That alone makes it hard to judge which family a rifle came from. I once had a rifle scholar make an offhand comment about the quality of a rifle being made by the Carpers as rough and only workmanlike an of little style. He had never seen any of their early stuff, like the "silver squirrel". So you cant really rule out any family by some of the little traits. If Lawing made that rifle, and he sure may have, it did not have that barrel on it when it left the shop. In my opinion you are very lucky to have that nice rifle and if you let it get away someday you will regret it. Ask my how I know. Johnny
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Ken, it's a rifle I've been working on and hope to be able to post it in the near future,,, not a southern gun though, just an old PA gun. ;D
I did more looking today and took off the trigger guard and trigger plate. I was going to take pics, but the batteries are dead again,, getting old I guess, like me!
On the trigger guard it looks like it's welded, or at least has a joint where the grip rail meets the rear of the trigger loop, like I mentioned before. Other than that joint, I don't see any other obvious spots. The two TG extensions where they fit to the wood looks like it has a few hammer marks in it, but for the most part is just covered with fairly course file marks, those like you'd see on the bottom flats of a barrel.
On the top of the grip rail is a long line like an inclusion, or a fold, in the iron.
The trigger plate has several hammer marks on the inside flats.
I looked closely at the butt plate, and can see where it was welded. The tang or return piece overlaps the butt plate piece, and I can see a light line on the butt plate piece where they were joined. I was going to take it off, but the screw in the butt plate won't budge so I left well enough alone.
As Carper suggests, with an unsigned barrel, whether it's the original barrel or not, or a Lawing, can only remain unknown. The barrel matches in finish with the rest of the iron parts, and fits the forearm inlet perfectly is about all I can say.
I did clean the bore though. After a brass brush, some hoppe's, and a bunch of patches the bore came out pretty clean and feels pretty smooth inside. I don't generally advocate shooting old guns, but I'd guess this one would be shootable! I checked the bore size with a .360 ball I have for another gun, and it's too large for this one, so is something less than a 36 cal.
And no, this one isn't going to get away,, not a whit of buyers remorse here! ;D
John
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It is good to see that the Tennessee rifle is still alive and well.
I will have a nice one at the CLA show this year in 32 cal. :)
Jerry Eitnier
Eitnier Rifles
Iron Mounted Southern Guns