AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: agaboric on March 12, 2010, 04:22:05 AM
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I was wondering at what distance do you set your target out when you first go to sight in your rifle, I have heard 25 yards or should it be further. I have shot my gun this season at our club's blanket shot and only hit the target when I was able to borrow someone elses gun at that station, (the person that borrowed my gun missed too) and it is a .50 cal so what load should I start out with, I plan to hunt mostly paper and steel so I do not need an elephant load.
Also one more question once your gun is dailed in at a particular load and you change your powder charge do you have to start the whole process over?
Thanks,
Andy
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25 yds: make sure it's on paper and adjust sights forwindage, but not elevation.
At 50 yds, I try to find a good powder charge, patch&lube, and ball size for a tight group. Once I've got a load I can live with, I'll start working on elevation corrections and additional windage corrections if necessary.
I sight in for target shooting. For my 36, 40 and 54 rifles, I've found that the same powder charge at 25 and 50 yds will allow a 6 oclock sight picture. For 100 yds, an extra 10 or 20 grains of powder plus (perhaps) a center hold will put the shots pretty well centered around the black.
For years, I tried sighting in with a center hold at 25 and 50 yds, but for 100 yds I was having to hold on the very top of the black. So, I went to a 6 oclock hold for 25&50 yds, and a center hold at 100. Other folks' eyeballs may be calibrated different from mine, but that's what works for me.
SCL
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So when you say 6:00 o clock do mean that the sights are in the middle of the black or bullseye?
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So when you say 6:00 o clock do mean that the sights are in the middle of the black or bullseye?
Picture the bull as the face of a clock!!! So, 6 O'clock hold is at 6 O'clock :)
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Roger type faster than I do! With a six o'clock hold, the bull appears to sit on the sights.
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The point you want to hit should be sitting just on top of your sight blade in a 6 O'Clock hold.
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You both type faste than I do
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By 6 oclock hold, I mean the top of the front sight is level with the top of the rear sight, and the black bullseye appears as a black circle perched on top of the front sight. (Pic below copied off a 'Glock Talk' site, but it gives you the general idea)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2F0603%2FButchG17%2Fsight%2520pictures%2FGlock_Sight_Pic-centerhits.jpg&hash=85f3ca1fbd4ce7bbfd409244417edf594c35d926)
For 25 yds, shooting at the "Six bull" target with its 2.89" diameter black bullseye, I want the ball to hit 1.45" above the point of aim (the bottom of the bull). As it happens, that sight picture at 50 yards distance results in the ball hitting about 3" higher(and in the 10 ring) above the bottom of the 50/100 yd Single 'Big Bull'. At 100 yds, there's enough drop where I compensate either by adding powder for more velocity or holding higher, or a combination of both.
Being sighted in for a 6 oclock hold does mean compensating some when shooting novelty targets at 25 yds, but for bullseye targets, I believe does offer advantages over a center hold.
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Okay I got ya! I know that this seems elementary to most but now I understand, thanks guys.
-Andy
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I generally zero sights on a ML for 25 yards - then check and fine tune at 50 to 60. I then do all load testing at 50 to 60 yards as data gleened at 25 is pretty much useless.
A gun zero'd at 25 yards will be pretty much zero'd at 50 - same sight setting- sometimes up to 1/2"high - not enough to matter. Zero'd at 25 is zero'd at 50 to 60 - perfect!
I also believe a 6 o'clock hold is good only in pistol shooting at exactly the same sized target at exactly the same range - every time. It is useless for cutting cards, strings, crossed straws and for shooting at steel gongs of various shapes and sizes placed at ranges you don't know. If you are set up 1 1/2' high (above the top of the blade or bead) at 25 yard,s how high it at 70 yards? How high is it at 35 yards, where do you hold on a string at 15 yards or 12 - how about a crossed straw cut at 18 yards? 6 0'clock holing is not for ML shooting.
A centre hold at point blank ranges and learning how much sight to hold 'proud' is how to hit farther away targets is the way to learn.
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I start the new ladies off at 30 yds (rest) and then move out to 50 etc. I go against the flow by moving up the charge as I move out. Many shooters use enough powder at 25 yds so they can stay with the same charge at longer ranges. I don't (did I say I'm cheap).......
That 6 O'clock hold causes some bitching when guys that use it run up against the animal targets at shoots. Ya gotta love it.. 8)
That same hold has it's place in chunk shoots to help hold the same every shot,on your spotter, since once you get the group established you move your X target up under said group and hope the ol girl shoots into the same hole when you shoot for score. Now then, once your eyes age and the 6 O'clock edge of your spotter fuzzes out you are handicaped and can only aim and shoot thru that blur :'(
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Roger- you use both sigths?
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Roger- you use both sigths?
Sure, but not so good! ::)
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I also believe a 6 o'clock hold is good only in pistol shooting at exactly the same sized target at exactly the same range - every time. It is useless for cutting cards, strings, crossed straws and for shooting at steel gongs of various shapes and sizes placed at ranges you don't know. If you are set up 1 1/2' high (above the top of the blade or bead) at 25 yard,s how high it at 70 yards? How high is it at 35 yards, where do you hold on a string at 15 yards or 12 - how about a crossed straw cut at 18 yards? 6 0'clock holing is not for ML shooting.
A centre hold at point blank ranges and learning how much sight to hold 'proud' is how to hit farther away targets is the way to learn.
Agree...particularly for hunting...I just zero everything at 50yds, and check drop at 100 just in case...but the longest shot I've ever had with a Flintlock was only 70 yards...just held normal on the heart as if it was 50yds, dead deer
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I tried to use the 6 o'clock hold early on but changed to a center of the bull. I have to agree with Daryl that for shooting pistols it works, but with a rifle I do much better with a center hold at all ranges.
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If you use a 6 o'clock hold for targets you'll probably shoot high on game.
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I start at 50 yds, but I back up the target with a big sheet of paper just in case. Since I work in an engineering office, I have access to all the old drawings (36x24 or larger) that I will ever need.
Dale H
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I shoot at 25 to see what's going on then sight in so that at 50 I'm 1" -2" high with my top big game load. This usually puts my lighter target/small game load dead on at 25.
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Most guns, .32 to 69 so far tested are virtually zero'd at 50 yards, if zero'd at 25. The actual impact at 50 may be up to 1" high, but usually only around 1/2". This holds for 7guns, including the smoothbore.
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Most guns, .32 to 69 so far tested are virtually zero'd at 50 yards, if zero'd at 25. The actual impact at 50 may be up to 1" high, but usually only around 1/2". This holds for 7guns, including the smoothbore.
Same here. The rest (windage & elevation) I've just learned throughout the years with many trips to the Range. I shoot fixed iron sights at Rendezvous and other shoots I attend. The distance can vary from as little as 10 to 15 yards to over 200 yards, and anywhere in between.
For this reason I use a center zero because of target/yardage variations, and I'm to old to try and learn it anyother way at this point in my life. This is just what works for me.
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I won a pistol match one time against a better pistol shooter that used a 6 o'clock hold. He had a better group on the top of the animal target with one no score. I patterned all my shots in the critter. I used to win my aggregates at 100 yards becasue I shot at 100 yards quite a bit. Still like to set up targets at 100 yards to see what it takes. Since it was offhand I usually used a heavier charge at 100, whcih may not have been the most accurate but permitted dead on hold. Mostly you can use about the same charge at 25 and 50, such as 45 grains in a 45, but I would use 65-70 at 100. Could not hold offhand to the difference in accuracy and did fairly well in X-sticks using that technique. Lot of good shots used the same charge. One I knew used 70 grains of 3f in his 50 at all ranges. Depends on the matches etc, but I still shoot at 100 for my deer rifles, maybe 35 for the 25 squirrel rifle. Will try my 20 bore smooth rifle at 75 just for kicks (need to get it built first)
DP
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I just shoot pistol. Really wanted to use a 6:00 hold, Really tried, but I shoot s lot better
with a center hold. As long as the sight is in the black, I'm squeezing. Worst I will get is a 9.
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Harry Pope was a great proponent of the 6 o'clock hold - if using the proper sized bead on the front - generaly a singed hog's hair set in a pine block. By proper sized, the appearance of the bead had to be the same size as the bull, so the sight picture was a perfect figure 8. Even he said this system failed on different sized target bulls as the elevation was then constantly changing. He and George Schoyen or was it Schalk, another famous barrel maker used to mix it up often at competitions over their different ideas on sights and methods of aiming.
For shooting at different ranges at different targets, 6 o'clock is not a good sighting system.
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A six o'clock hold works well if you have adjustable sights and are familiar with the adjustments for different ranges. Big bore shooters use a six o'clock hold, at long ranges a dead on hold blocks out the bullseye.
For fixed sight, black powder guns, a dead on hold works the best.
Centershot
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" Big bore shooters use a six o'clock hold, at long ranges a dead on hold blocks out the bullseye. "
Centershot
I don't understand this sentence - I used to shoot big bore competition (full bore = Engish Designation) - always a centre hold, whether in 'scoped' competition or with 'metalics' (always double apertures).
Are you referring to military shooting with issue sights? Really has no weight with ML's, as you'd have to adjust the sights every single target on our trail. Sighting for dead-on hold, impact on the top of the blade or centre of the bead gives a centre hit on every target out to about 65 yards, with a 25 yard zero. Holding a bit of blade or bead 'proud' for the 80 to 100 yard shots is easily accomplished.
Sight set for 6 o'clock hold on a 5" bull would put the ball 2.5" high at 25 yards will put the ball about 4.53" high at 50yds., 4.9" high at 75 yards and zero'd at 122 yards - not very useful for target shooting nor hunting. There is no point blank range at all.
Same low velocity target-type load (1,500fps) most use, if zero'd at 50 yards would be + 1/4" at 25, 0 at 50, - 1/2" at 60, - 2.5" at 80, and minus 5.7" at 100.
Increase the velocity to 1,800fps and the high, 6 o'clock load, same bull is now zero'd at 147 yards & +2.5 @ 25; + 4.9 @ 50; + 6.2 @ 80: + 5.77" at 100.- again, no point blank.
Same 1,800fps load, if zero'd at 50 is 0 at 25; 0 @ 50; - 1.6 @ 80; - 2.69" at 90 and - 4.0 at 100.
Adjusting sights works with good sights, ie: MOA or 1/3 MOA adjustments on target rifles. These are repeatable, whereas cheap adjustables on ML's lack refinement needed for proper zeros -
Of course, all this is subjective and personal preference.
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I was referring to service rifle shooting. I sight all my muzzleloaders in at 25 yards, center hold.
Sight picture is explained here:
www.scribd.com/doc/2386881/Usamu-Sight-Picture
Centershot
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I had shot against people trained in HP that had production ML's and were always fiddling with their sights. While I do agree that they were not that high of quality of sights, it seemed like those of us that had fixed sights did better through the whole season because we left our sights alone while they were always chasing the zero. One issue was that different clubs would get kind of creative on their targets. One liked to use animal targets for instance. Also in the "primitive" fun shoots a 6 O'clock hold is absolutely worthless, where you migh have to break a charcoal briquet or whatever. In one team shoot, the first shooter would shoot into a circle and the second shooter would try to hit the same hole, closest won. For these a 50 yard sight in was plenty. They were also fun to compete in as some of the prizes were quite attractive.
DP
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I start sighting in at 50 yards. I've had more success over the years using a center hold rather than the six o'clock I use for smokeless. I achieve greater consistency shooting the same powder charge for both 25 and 50 yards and adjusting the hold slightly. Then I up the charge for 100 yard ranges and keep the center hold.