AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Antique Gun Collecting => Topic started by: Knob Mountain on March 18, 2010, 05:18:25 PM
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OCT/ Rd Barrel 45" length,smooth bore .575. 60" OAL of gun, 13" pull. Butt plate is 1 13/16" wide x 4 1/2" high. Any clues to the who, what and when of this piece is appreciated. Thanks.
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Way outside of my area of knowledge, but there is something about the guard that brings to mind the guard on the Jacob Dubbs rifle. But I don't think he made the piece.
Guy
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Buck & Ball or fowler. Almost certainly a flinter to begin with. Barrel may be slightly cut back. No patch box and the heavy broad walnut stock suggest fairly early. New England comes immediately to mind.
Having said the above I'd not rule out a European gun with that low cheekpiece and general architecture. Easy enough to determine if we find nothing else as the walnut can be traced to the proper side of the pond.
Given nothing else I'd lean toward New England. Obviously without a known similar gun this could well be from NY or PA, but I don't think so. It'll be interesting to see other opinions.
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IF it's American and I were a betting person, I would put my money on Isaac Haines. I realize this may sound a bit bold, but there are some fairly substantial similarities. First compare the overall butstock profile to the great early Haines rifle. Next, carefully study the lock panel / beavertail shaping on this gun and compare it the the style Haines used. Compare the overall carving style to Haines examples. Take note the import or recycled hardware on other Haines guns. Now I realize this may perhaps be a bit of a stretch, but It's something to consider. To speculate a bit further, I would suggest based on the carving, something relatively early in his career.
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I forgot to add, what a fantastic gun! It's in remarkable condition. I love it!
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Yes Jim - that's where I've- seen hardware similar to that - the Haines gun in RCA 1 - not the Dubbs rifle.
Guy
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I don't know enough to be a gun-art analyst. but I DO love that little asymmetrical carving around the breech tang.
The carving on the stock behind the cheekpiece looks well done, but oddly skimpy for coverage. Like the buyer ran out of money for "fancy" and the carver had to stop just as he was getting started. Just kind of strange to my very uneducated eye
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Wouldn't that be a wonderful find if it were a Haines!
At first look I thought a European gun, or a New England piece as well. But as early as it appears to be I wouldn't rule out PA as well.
As for the hardware, I have an early fowler stocked in curly maple with almost identical hardware and engraving, plus as Guy points out there's a couple others in RCA as well, so we know that this furnature was available and used on some early American made guns.
As for the walnut being able to to pinned to one side of the pond or the other, don't hold your breath on that. I once sent a wood sample from an ancient chair to the forestry Service guys to analyze, and it came back as either English or American. However it would certainly be helpful to send a sample of this gun to them on the chance they can pin it down.
If the wood can somehow be proved to be American, this gun will be an important early find, no matter who made it!
Thanks for posting the pictures!!!
John
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I have no idea where this gun came from, but I got to hold it last weekend. My observations.....To me it feels much lighter than it looks. The nose cap is loose and the wood under it looks very light in color compared to the walnut I'm used to seeing. It is also less porous than most black walnut I'm using now, yet it doesn't seem like todays english either.
I don't think the nose cap is original. It seems much too thin, almost like brass shim stock we use in machine shops, about .015 thick.
I remember the cheek piece sticking out more in the front than in the back, if that makes sense. Like it will smack you hard from the recoil, even more so than it looks in the pictures.
And I had the feeling the lock was not original. The lock mortise fit was good at the rear of the lock but a large gap in the front of the lock.
Is the front sight on backwards??
Just my uneducated observations,
Bill
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Billd,
ALL YOUR OBSERVATIONS ARE CORRECT. The cheek is much larger towards the muzzle than the butt. When I shoulder this gun it fits me like a glove. I have the feeling the cheek wouldn't beat you up. The nose cap is thin and the wood is light. The front sight does appear backwards.
I love old guns but ...... not many really really excite me. This one does!
I'm not sure why, but it is really cool.
I'll have it on display this weekend, on my table ( D-2), at the Baltimore gun show.
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It looks like a German trade gun to me. I've seen quite a few now that look just like it. I don;t think it;s American at all. Looks like Euro walnut too, although that's often an iffy call. In fact, a few years ago Bill Kennedy had one in his shop to reconvert, although the poor guy never got a chance to do so, that looked just like it. Very attractive gun!
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Hey Dave, You've been holding out on me. Beautiful piece. It has kind of a Christian Springs look to it to me. Is the wrist slightly stepped?
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Defiantely German! >:(
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To determine if American or European, you can send a piece of wood, about 2 X size of a toothpick to Wood ID Group /US Forest Service/ Gifford Pinchot Dr/ University of Wisconsin, Madison [don't know the zip]. You can send a reasonable number of samples per year, maybe 10, no charge [your tax $$$ at work]. All I ever ask for is what kind of wood & North American or European. I'm with those who believe ultimately it will be shown to be European. That said, many early guns are product of European craftsmen who came over & have not done a la St Paul "when in Rome" etc.
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Thanks for all your help on this gun guessing game. I had this on my table at Baltimore and it got a lot of looks. Most everyone there concluded that it was a German trade gun. Most felt that it was about a inch or two short. There were a few votes for it being made here with import hardware. The words Christian springs and I Haines were mentioned quite often also.
Pretty much the same opinion as all you knowledgeable folks here.
All I know is I like it and I'm going to stick it in the machine today and get a good copy of it for future use. Some good pics, dimensions of everything and some tracings for future use.
Thanks again for your help
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Good golly fellas it's pretty obvious that's a German gun, a very nice example to boot. I'd suggest you fellas switch your brand of beer...... :P
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My first impression of this piece had a FRENCH look about it. Guess I will have to give up the Canadian Labatts and go back to the domestic stuff! :-\
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German gun. 1770's-1780's. Has the very commonly seen hardware set (with minor variations). Apparently made in some factory somewhere in massive quantities and sold in Germany and America.
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I want one.
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Ther are probably a few in old German attics around ST Louis...... are you out looking yet??
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To determine if American or European, you can send a piece of wood, about 2 X size of a toothpick to Wood ID Group /US Forest Service/ Gifford Pinchot Dr/ University of Wisconsin, Madison [don't know the zip]. You can send a reasonable number of samples per year, maybe 10, no charge [your tax $$$ at work]. All I ever ask for is what kind of wood & North American or European. I'm with those who believe ultimately it will be shown to be European. That said, many early guns are product of European craftsmen who came over & have not done a la St Paul "when in Rome" etc.
The Center for Wood Anatomy Research will try to identify what species of wood was used in the making of a gunstock. From what I know they cannot determine where it was grown. If the gunstock is made of English walnut (Juglans regia), that does not mean it was made in Europe. The colonists brought all sorts of trees and seeds with them from the earliest attempts to colonize America. If anyone has tried to shell the nuts of the native walnuts, black (Juglans nigra) or butternut (Juglans cinerea), you know they would have tried to start growing English walnuts almost immediately. By 1700 there could have been plenty of English walnut wood available in the colonies for gunstocks. Under the right conditions walnut trees can grow rapidly. The date of introduction for English walnut to America is unknown but it is thought to be at least by the mid-1600's.
M. Keen
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I KNOW THIS IS AN OLD POST, but I'd like to add a new twist to it.....a little more food for thought!
Dave has a couple patterns of this piece now. While searching Knob Mountains website for a suitable stock pattern to emulate my next project....RCA#19, I settled on Dave's German Trade Gun pattern as a dead ringer for #19! Now, you all know the beloved #19 is unsigned, but attributed by Kindig as possibly by Swiss born & trained Wolfgang Hachen who was established in Reading by 1760. The orig. (19)was stocked/restocked in Am. Walnut with a lot of German influences too and European furniture. The architecture is almost identical, but the carving is different. So who knows?
The similarities between Dave's smoothbore and RCA#19 are many, and maybe enough to suggest maybe the same builder.
Now after comparing pics again I see the cheeck on 19 is NOT wider at the front as this one is, and the shaping at the ends of the cheeck are different too. But I think I can modify it to work. All the other PA. patterns have shorter cheeks.
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I have a plain original rifle with the exact same ramrod thimbles, and the exact rear one that comes to a point. The engraving on the rear thimble is identical as well. I guess a builder was able to purchase this set. Most who have examined mine beleive the hardware was reused from an earlier gun.
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Well, I'm sort of reproducing this trade gun for myself to use. There will be some small differences but all in all it will be very close. I'm reworking some similar Jeager hardware to closely resemble the original hardware. I also chose curly maple instead of walnut,...I'm a sucker for curly maple, oh well.
Not to steer off topic, however, I'm also in the bone dry beginning stages of building my first rifle,... a J.P. Beck with 42" swamped Rice barrel.
Now to get a chunk of time each week enough to complete it!!
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I have a plain original rifle with the exact same ramrod thimbles, and the exact rear one that comes to a point. The engraving on the rear thimble is identical as well. I guess a builder was able to purchase this set. Most who have examined mine beleive the hardware was reused from an earlier gun.
Have any photos of the thimbles?
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Hey Fellas, I can't make any worthwhile comments on this piece since Im still functioning at the pre-school level in ID'ing originals, but let me remind us of something we might not realize! From Colonial times up through today, there is and has been a brisk trade in North American hardwood timber going to Europe. It is entirely possible, I would think, that a piece could be made in a European country and be stocked with American Black Walnut. Or Maple. Or Elm, Black Cherry, etc.
Many German WWI rifles were stocked in American Black Walnut, as were the earlier WWII German 98k's! American hardwoods were dirt cheap by European standards from the Colonial Period foward to the start of WWII. I'm just thinkin' that maybe we ought not to forget this when we try to narrow down a country of origion based on wood identification of the stock ;)
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Another thread brought back from the dead!
Does anyone have photos of the original gun, Knob Mountain/ Dave Keck's German Trade gun? Dave doesn't have photos, and suggested that I ask if someone here might have them saved somewhere.