AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Gun Building => Topic started by: Dale Halterman on August 31, 2008, 01:02:43 AM
-
On the old site, some one had posted a link to a website where there were suggested modifications for making a Siler lock look English. Can anyone tell me where to find it now?
And, in what may be the dumb question of the month, has anyone ever tried to use the frizzen from an L&R Manton lock in a small Siler lock kit?
Dale H
-
Dale,
Bookie has a pretty good tutorial on modifying a Siler Lock to make it look English. It's really pretty easy. I've done it on a left handed Siler although I did not do everything he did it still looked more English than Germanic.
http://www.iowatelecom.net/~toadhall/modify_siler_lock.htm (http://www.iowatelecom.net/~toadhall/modify_siler_lock.htm)
Cheers,
Ken
-
That's the one I was looking for. Thanks, Ken
Dale H
-
I know its not a Siler/Chambers lock. If you cut the tail off of the L&R Bedford it looks like a smaller version of there square butt late Ketland. And the pan is right. You could thin up the tail alittle also . (https://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u90/SamEverly/Gun%20Locks/LRLock.jpg)(http://)
-
I did this lock a couple of years ago. It's a large Siler (the small one is pretty durn small...). Actually, it's the "Gunmakers lock kit" with the blank lockplate (the greatest thing since sliced bread). Not exactly "English", but it was meant to look like a ca. 1800 American lock of more English style. I used a "Switzer" lock as my main inspiration.
(https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v326/Fatdutchman/Flintlocks/BerksBauernwehr/IM000078.jpg)
(https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v326/Fatdutchman/Flintlocks/BerksBauernwehr/IM000089.jpg)
It could easily be made more "English-looking". The biggest problem you might have is rounding the pan. There is not much to play with there, and you could very easily file off too much, exposing the notch in the lockplate. I've just BARELY got it covered on this one!
-
On the old site, some one had posted a link to a website where there were suggested modifications for making a Siler lock look English. Can anyone tell me where to find it now?
And, in what may be the dumb question of the month, has anyone ever tried to use the frizzen from an L&R Manton lock in a small Siler lock kit?
Dale H
Easier to just use a English style lock in the first place. Unless you do a LOT of work its going to look like a Siler someone tried to make into something else.
Dan
-
The problem is, I am looking for an English style pistol sized lock, and the Chambers round faced lock is to early. I also like the internal fit of the Chambers locks better than the L&R locks. Now, if L&R sold a kit or casting set for their Manton, that might work.
Dale H
-
This is one of my interests also. I shoot left handed and am kind of cheap. I can get the Siler kit for a fair price and do the modifications. While it will lack the stirrup on the mainspring, I have found the Silers to be pretty nice locks.
DP
-
Now, if L&R sold a kit or casting set for their Manton, that might work
They all sell parts for their locks and most are pretty accommodating. Just call em up and tell em what you want and why. They'll fix you up. Just cause it's not offered in a catalog don't mean you can't get it.
-
Why not just buy one of our Queen Anne Pistol locks? It already has the round plate and cock, uses the small Siler internals, and is assembled by L.C. Rice to the same standards as all of our other locks. Look for it on our web site at www.flintlocks.com.
-
Hey, Jim, thanks for jumping in. I have seen your Queen Anne, and I like it a lot. The only problem is, it is too early for the pistol I have in mind.
Your late Ketland would be perfect if it was available sized for a pistol.
Not to derail my own thread, but as long as I have your attention Jim, do you ream the pivot hole in the sear for a close fit when you assemble your locks, or is it just drilled?
Dale H
-
Dale,
Yes, we drill the sear hole undersize, and then ream it to assure a tight fit between the hole and the screw shaft.
-
Pistol locks don't have to be that small.
-
My last pistol build.. well it is not finished yet, used one of Jims late Ketlands. Worked out just fine for a pistol.
-
The problem is, I am looking for an English style pistol sized lock, and the Chambers round faced lock is to early. I also like the internal fit of the Chambers locks better than the L&R locks. Now, if L&R sold a kit or casting set for their Manton, that might work.
Dale H
I would get parts from Blackley or The Rifle Shoppe if they have them. Both show castings for really nice small locks.
To me using a Siler as a base for an English lock is just silly. Sorry. Even when done it still will feel like a Siler when you cock it. Siler is a FINE design for its intended use. Perhaps the best. But its not possible to make a best quality English lock from 1775-1780 or later from one.
I just reworked a L&R "Manton" for use in a pistol.
Its not nearly as bad as some seem to think not perfect by any means but very fast and a good sparker with a little tuning.
I thin the tumbler which is far too wide for use in small guns. Think its .650" from the face of the lockplate to the head of the bridal screws. Requires far too much wood to be removed under the breech tang unless a VERY heavy barrel is used. I also reworked the main and frizzen springs for more tension.
Dan
-
Perhaps he doesn't want a "best quality" English lock....ordinary English locks retained a normal mainspring/tumbler arrangement.
-
To me using a Siler as a base for an English lock is just silly. Sorry. Even when done it still will feel like a Siler when you cock it. Siler is a FINE design for its intended use. Perhaps the best. But its not possible to make a best quality English lock from 1775-1780 or later from one.
I just reworked a L&R "Manton" for use in a pistol.
Its not nearly as bad as some seem to think not perfect by any means but very fast and a good sparker with a little tuning.
I thin the tumbler which is far too wide for use in small guns. Think its .650" from the face of the lockplate to the head of the bridal screws. Requires far too much wood to be removed under the breech tang unless a VERY heavy barrel is used. I also reworked the main and frizzen springs for more tension.
Dan
Mostly what I think. We buy barrel blanks for up to $250 or more and work them over to our needs, but some seem to want a "pop in" lock. I have had good luck with L & R locks also, when tuned. While I would use the Siler or other Chambers locks for earlier guns L&R makes nice later locks. I think they make one called the Bailes that is made for pistols. When you turn down the tumbler does that affect the depth for the fly indention or do you turn down from plate side?
DP
-
I agree with Stophel and Jeff, I recently build a kentucky pistol using a late ketland lock, worked out great....Don
-
Wow, thanks for all the input, guys. Even from those of you who think the whole idea is stupid.
Dan, you mentioned that a small Siler won't feel like a first quality English lock when cocked, no matter what it looks like. I have never cocked a quality English pistoil, so I had no idea there was such a difference. Can you get this feel of a quality lock from modifying an L&R Manton? Or from Jim C's late Ketland?
Are there any tricks to thinning out the tumbler? If I remember correctly, the fly in the Manton is on the lockplate side, not on the bridle side as in the Silers, so turning from the bridle side seems to make the most sense. How much do you take off? BTW, I know what you mean about it making for a deep cavity. The first muzzle loader I ever built was a pistol kit from Golden Age with a Manton lock and a 13/16" straight barrel. Not a whole lot of wood left there. You can see the tang screw in the lock inlet. It did get me a judges choice ribbon at Dixon's, though.
I was going to stay away from the Rifle Shop because of the delivery time stories I have heard, and I did try Blackley's, but had trouble with their website. Maybe worth another look.
I did look at Jim's late Ketland for this pistol and the length was OK, it was just a little tall. Maybe I will take another look.
Right now though, it seems like Jeff's idea of contacting L&R to see if they will sell me a casting set is the best idea. I'll give them a call tomorrow.
Thanks for all the ideas, and keep them coming.
Hope you are all having a safe and enjoyable holiday weekend.
Dale H
-
This is a photo of a late Ketland that will be used on a NC mountain pistol
(https://home.att.net/~t.glazener/golcher2.jpg)
I had Sam Everly fit a cock from Dixie Gunworks. The tail of the lock was rounded and Sam welded up the "step" at the rear of the lock. I would think this conversion would be easier than modifying a samll Siler but maybe not.
Dennis
-
Hey, I like what you did to that lock!
I think the Chambers "Late Ketland" would be your best bet for a ready made lock.
Are you wanting to do an ordinary, export grade lock, or a fine Wogden duelling pistol?
-
This pistol is to be based on a Wogdon dueler of about 1790.
Dale H
-
Ah, well, then you do want something other than the ordinary variety. Something from TRS or Blackley's or an otherwise truly custom made lock is in order.
-
Has anybody tried this supplier?
http://www.peterdyson.co.uk/acatalog/Pistols.html
He's got several Wogdon lockplates listed.
Best regards
Rolfkt
-
This pistol is to be based on a Wogdon dueler of about 1790.
Dale H
Blackley's has a Wogdon & Barton lock castings circa 1790 both right and left from a SxS pistol. They have sliding safeties and are 3 7/8" long.
The better locks feel different because they have far less friction due to the link type tumbler/mainspring and careful engineering.
When properly done the leverage is such than at full cock there is less pressure than with the cock at rest. This resulted in less pressure on the sear at full cock and made it easier to obtain a good trigger pull. I do not know when this was fully evolved but suspect it was pre-1810 at least. On the later locks this reduction in pressure is very noticeable.
Dan
-
Wow, thanks for all the input, guys. Even from those of you who think the whole idea is stupid.
Dan, you mentioned that a small Siler won't feel like a first quality English lock when cocked, no matter what it looks like. I have never cocked a quality English pistoil, so I had no idea there was such a difference. Can you get this feel of a quality lock from modifying an L&R Manton? Or from Jim C's late Ketland?
Are there any tricks to thinning out the tumbler? If I remember correctly, the fly in the Manton is on the lockplate side, not on the bridle side as in the Silers, so turning from the bridle side seems to make the most sense. How much do you take off? BTW, I know what you mean about it making for a deep cavity. The first muzzle loader I ever built was a pistol kit from Golden Age with a Manton lock and a 13/16" straight barrel. Not a whole lot of wood left there. You can see the tang screw in the lock inlet. It did get me a judges choice ribbon at Dixon's, though.
I was going to stay away from the Rifle Shop because of the delivery time stories I have heard, and I did try Blackley's, but had trouble with their website. Maybe worth another look.
I did look at Jim's late Ketland for this pistol and the length was OK, it was just a little tall. Maybe I will take another look.
Right now though, it seems like Jeff's idea of contacting L&R to see if they will sell me a casting set is the best idea. I'll give them a call tomorrow.
Thanks for all the ideas, and keep them coming.
Hope you are all having a safe and enjoyable holiday weekend.
Dale H
I just put it in the lathe and thinned it then cut down the bridle and other parts as needed. If carbide is used its not necessary to anneal the part. You are correct this can be done without effecting the fly. When done I left a small "bearing" around the pin the protrudes through the bridal. I took just a little off the other side as well to make sure it was true.
Fool like I did not measure it before I started cutting.
Late English locks, like those used by Manton after 1800 or so had pretty small parts compared to earlier stuff. Part of this was to lighten the parts for speed this was becoming important as wing shooting continued to increase in popularity and part was surely better metallurgy allowing smaller parts that were still durable.
Dan
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi72.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fi199%2FDPhariss%2FML%2520Guns%2FLRMantonTumbler.jpg&hash=6f27dedf29556874100830e7fb615eb6575fb72e)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi72.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fi199%2FDPhariss%2FML%2520Guns%2FLRtumblerreduction.jpg&hash=530136eb01c8b78747581c1a8f1b3e3f25e69d14)
-
Perhaps he doesn't want a "best quality" English lock....ordinary English locks retained a normal mainspring/tumbler arrangement.
I tend to assume things.
I personally can't see building a low grade English gun so I don't look at it from that perspective.
Many of the plainer English guns still had pretty good lock compared to the relatively poor quality locks sent over here.
Dan
-
Has anybody tried this supplier?
http://www.peterdyson.co.uk/acatalog/Pistols.html
He's got several Wogdon lockplates listed.
Best regards
Rolfkt
Rolfkt, the lockplate, cock and frizzen for these two locks came from Peter Dyson. I found Peter to be very good to deal with. I asked him if he could blot out the engraveing so I could change the design and he obliged. I suspect that he just wiped some putty on the plate before molding. Made the plate surface a bit rough and uneven but that was expected. the castings were very nice. My understanding is that Peter does not have the original locks but rather, a set of copies that he then copies from. At least with my locks that was the case and no internal parts were available. Unlike Blackley, who do all their casting in house, Peter sends his out to be done.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.telusplanet.net%2Fpublic%2Ftetachuk%2Fsmithr.jpg&hash=01a0f59c7716e6f3ec86adc0288cefc4869fa93a)
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.telusplanet.net%2Fpublic%2Ftetachuk%2Fsmithl.jpg&hash=4b8e025a1b58245c040b8383a728150e8f89ddf9)
-
Evil Monkey, beautiful lock!!! What type of gun is it for? My main interest is flintlock pistols. Sadly, there are very few types of finished pistol locks offered.
I've been often tempted to order parts from Dyson, but haven't dared, since he doesn't have complete kits. Can you make/buy suitable "guts" for these locks without a lathe and a mill?
Best regards
Rolfkt
-
Rolfkt, these locks are for a sxs shotgun, about 1820ish. In my case, I wanted to make all the 'guts' myself just because I hadn't done it before. There's a good chance that you could retrofit contemporary 'guts' to a set of period castings as long as the lockplate dimentions (particularily the height) were similar. If you are to do this, make sure that Peter knows and ask him to cover up the original holes. I don't think any of his plates have the tumbler and screw holes in them but they do have remnants of them (unless you have the engraveing blotted out :D). For an English pistol lock, I don't think there is anything wrong with the L&R manton. I REALLY like Dave Kanger's idea of asking L&R to furnish the parts as cast like a kit. To make your own internals, A mill is not necessary but a lathe is handy. You could, of course, make and use a tumbler mill for the tumbler. Not sure how you would make the stirup link without a lathe?? and of course screws are easy on a lathe. I made the bridles for my locks on a drill press.
-
Here is a link to a tutorial on making a Manton V pan flintlock from TRS castings.
TOWs plan for a Purdey rifle has drawing of the lock internals that are very close if not identical to TRS castings for the recessed breech Manton FL I put together. So for those needing guidance on English lock internals this is a place to look.
Dan
http://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/ctml_experiments/mantonlock/mantonlock.html
-
Dan, when you turn down the tumbler, did you take any metal off the fork for the link? I have an L&R Bedford lock and the fork has broken twice. It seems to be a weak point and I would be wary of thinning it even more.
You all have convinced me not to try to modify a small Siler. This winter, I will put together a couple of Siler kits I have picked up and hopefully learn something about lock building. Then I will decide which casting set to use - Manton, Blackely, or whatever.
So, first questions:
What size reamer to use for the hole in the sear?
Is there any way to heat treat lock parts with an acetylene torch? I don't have one and I'm not sure I want to buy one just for doing locks.
Thanks again to everyone who responded.
Dale H
-
Dan, when you turn down the tumbler, did you take any metal off the fork for the link? I have an L&R Bedford lock and the fork has broken twice. It seems to be a weak point and I would be wary of thinning it even more.
You all have convinced me not to try to modify a small Siler. This winter, I will put together a couple of Siler kits I have picked up and hopefully learn something about lock building. Then I will decide which casting set to use - Manton, Blackely, or whatever.
So, first questions:
What size reamer to use for the hole in the sear?
Is there any way to heat treat lock parts with an acetylene torch? I don't have one and I'm not sure I want to buy one just for doing locks.
Thanks again to everyone who responded.
Dale H
I turned that whole side down and stiffened the mainspring by re-arching it. Sparked it a few times to check the tune then took it apart to start inletting. Don't know if its going to break or not.
Guess I will eventually find out.
Dan