southern guns

[chuck-ia]

I am toying with the idea of building a gillespie rifle with a percussion lock. How common were these? I have been shooting a gillespie in .36 cal. for over a year now and really like the rifle, (flintlock). Just think that that a percussion might give me an edge at a shoot. I would want to use a swamped barrel probably in .40 or .45 cal. B weight. Don't know how correct that would be. Probably won't get started till this winter, but want to start gathering parts. Suggestions? chuck

[Dennis Glazener]

Chuck-ia,
The later Gillespie's made in the Mills River NC shop of Mathew Gillespie son Philip, were almost all percussion with a sprinkling of die hard flints built for shooters that still insisted that if God had intended us to shoot percussions he would not have made rocks!

Mathew's other sons Harvey, James and John made signed percussion rifles, as did their sons. Probably many of the rifles made by Mathew's two brothers William and Robert Harvey made unsigned percussion rifles.

So, if (oh it hurts  me to say this you want to build a percussion Gillespie, and feel like it would be period correct I would not hesitate to do it.

One thing I will mention is most of the percussion Gillespie's that I have seen have had straight barrels but I, like you, much prefer the swamped barrels.
Dennis

[woodsrunner]

The three original Union County caplock Gillespies that Billy Harkins and I have found all had straight barrels. These were made by John or James and I think one may have been a .40cal and the others .36cal. Billy's GGgranddad's old caplock-the one Billy got into trouble with the bear with-we are almost sure is a John Gillespie. It also had a straight barrel .36cal that Ed Rayl rebored out to .40cal. I had Billy build me a rifle based on one of the originals that we found, but we used a swamped Rice barrel instead of a straight barrel. It's exceptionally well balanced, and when you heft mine and the original in comparison, well, there isn't any comparison! My swamped Gillespie is sweet!

EDIT: I did go flint with mine and not that new fangled caplock system

[northmn]

While I do not claim to know a great deal about Gillespie, southern guns in percussion were made into the very late 1800's and possibly into the 1900's.  A book on Appalachian guns shows almost all percussion.  While I prefer a flintlock for muzzleloading shooting, percussions did exist for some time, even into the cartridge era.

DP

[chuck-ia]

Thanks for the replys. Just curious, what type of breech would one use, a simple drum? That would be one more advantage of a swamped barrel, should be plenty of metal for a drum. Still in the thinking stage on this percussion gun. Maybe getting too serious? The few shoots we go to, I go to have fun and shoot the best I can, don't really care about winning anything. Part of me thinks that getting competitive will take the fun out of shooting. chuck

[heinz]

Chuck, I believe there is no problem in building it as a percussion.  The old timers threw nothing away and rerifling a barrel from a broken gun was standard operating proceedure.  I had an old barrel once with traces of haveing been installed in its thrid gun.
You also have the option of making it look like it was converted from flint to percussion, another common occurence.    I would notworry about the ignition.  If the smith had a paying customer that wanted something, he likely would have made it.

[heinz]

Chuck, you will have more fun with a flintlock, at least I do.  To few excuses with a percussion.  From a performance standpoint the patent breech is superior but I doubt you would ev er know that shooting off-hand.

[Pete G.]

I think if I were building a later model straight cap gun I would use a straight barrel, patent breech and a Golcher style lock(perhaps even a back action if I wanted something different).
On the other hand, if going for the look of an earlier conversion, use the swamped barrel, drum and one of the conversion cap locks.

[Dennis Glazener]

Thanks for the replys. Just curious, what type of breech would one use, a simple drum? That would be one more advantage of a swamped barrel, should be plenty of metal for a drum. Still in the thinking stage on this percussion gun. Maybe getting too serious? The few shoots we go to, I go to have fun and shoot the best I can, don't really care about winning anything. Part of me thinks that getting competitive will take the fun out of shooting. chuck

All the percussion Gillespie's that I have seen have used the drum and nipple.
Dennis

[chuck-ia]

Dennis, what lock would you use if you were building a percussion gun? chuck

[54ball]

 I have one of Dennis's rifles that I was going to build in percussion.  Its a Mathew with a swamped barrel and it is begging to be a flintlock so I may rethink my original plan.

 For an off the shelf lock for a percussion southern gun you can not beat a Goucher.  They were produced by the case load and were a very popular mid to late century "1800s" lock.  Newly made and marked Goucher, Ohio, J Henry or Warranted locks are available through R E Davis and L&R. All have pretty much the same profile.

 The Siler Mountain from Jim Chambers is another excellent lock. It basically uses the Goucher profile.

 The lock I chose is a NOS Pete Alan Mountain Style which is close to the Siler Mountain which is close to the Goucher.  Do you see the pattern.  Unlike flintlocks which can be finicky according to the manufacturer all American made percussion locks are good quality.
 
 The Goucher or Mountain profile that fits the era should have a rounded tail and a flat lock plate.  The Gouchers were marked Goucher some are marked Warrented.  Some may have another name such as a distributor or even a manufacturer who copied the style of this popular lock like J. Henry or Leman.

 The main thing with a Southern Mountain rifle is not to use an early Germanic style lock like a Siler flintlock or percussion version of the Siler Flintlock.  English locks are traditionally found on early Southern rifles.  You will see many of the older English locks converted to Percussion with the tails filed round to match the style of the day.

 Sometimes you will see a military lock used on a Southern rifle.  As a matter of fact such a rifle is illustrated here on this site in the Museum.  It is a Tennessee youth rifle with a Harper's Ferry 1803 style lock.  It has been converted to percussion with the Goucher or Mountain style hammer.

 For you I would suggest the Goucher or Mountain style.  As far as English percussion conversions the following locks are available newly made as percussion conversions.  These include, the Late Ketland, John Bailes and Durs Egg.  All of which would be appropriate for a southern gun.   

       

[G-Man]

As the others said, go ahead and use the swamped barrel if you like - I have seen late southern mountain rifles, originally built as percussion, with hand made swamped barrels.  By the 1840s and after you see both types of barrels on mountain rifles.

[woodsrunner]

When I had Billy Harkins build my Gillespie we used an L&R lock since it most closely matched the original-don't know what kind the original is-and I've had nothing but trouble with it. Sent it back, and it was reworked. That's helped a good bit, but it's still not totally right. Also have these locks on the SXS 16ga that David Dodds made for me, and that, too, was a mistake. In fairness to L&R, I understand they have gone a long way in correcting the problems encountered with these locks. That's good, because these locks just fit some situations and there is a need for them. I think 54ball is pinging on target with what he says.

[Mike R]

I grew up around the southern mountains and percussion longrifles were still in use in the 1950s. In the south, flintlocks held on until the civil war in many backwoods areas. But later guns were mostly percussion. Being influenced by that early experience I have always had a soft spot for percussion southern longguns. My 'go-to' squirrel rifle is a .32 perc Tenn rifle made by a local buddy. The first rifle I built is a .45 perc longrifle--it is still my best shooter. Although I love flintlocks--and there is quite a cult of shooters who deny all else--percussions still attract me and I enjoy shooting them--go for it!

[stuart cee dub]

Hi Chuck,
Unlike the majority of the members here I really like percussion guns and have used a number of different locks on builds . My favorite lock for a drum and nipple combo is the Siler mountain as built  by Jim Chambers et al.

There are several reasons.....
The spring is nice and strong which holds the hammer down on the cap on ignition .
There is no little stirrup to lose or break.The tumbler has a friction bearing ring which keeps the lock time quick .The c shaped cut on the lockplate is just slightly undersized as cast which allows you to get a nice tight fit  sandwiching the drum between the lock plate and the hammer which is what you want .The aim is not to stress the threads in the drum as into goes into the barrel .
Poorly supported back action locks are the worst for this issue .Thin barreled guns should be rock- locks anyway .

I have used these for some years on a number of guns both on simple simple trigger guns and set trigger guns .You can get a nice release using the single trigger .Never had a bit of trouble .   

[Ken G]

I have an original Soddy percussion rifle with a swamped barrel. IT also shows signs of all the dovetails being moved several inches.   Swamped or straight would be historically correct.  
40 inch barrel.  
Barrel at breech - 1.10
Thinnest pint of barrel .85, 17 inches from muzzle
Barrel at Muzzle - 1.0

[chuck-ia]

Thanks for all the suggestions. Was pretty much set on a .45 cal. B weight barrel at 42", now I hear talk about a new Rice barrel, will have to check it out. chuck

[54ball]

Just to shake the bushes, do not rule out a 44 incher in B weight.