Author Topic: Problems of Collecting Grand Master Rifles 101  (Read 8590 times)

jwh1947

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Problems of Collecting Grand Master Rifles 101
« on: May 29, 2010, 02:26:16 AM »
I sometimes refer to myself as Advocatus Diablolicus or The Oracle,all in jest and good humor. Now I speak from the heart and 50 years of collecting/dealing/building firearms of all sorts.  

The main problems of collecting grand master Kentucky rifles...you know, the Kindig variety...are threefold, and you need not be a rocket scientist to figure it out.

1.) There are very, very few good ones out there.  
2.) Collecting them is a sport for multi-millionaires; mere millionaires need not apply, and you are outright foolish if you do.
3.) Many "super" examples are not what they appear to be.  Let the buyer beware.

So, it comes down to the age-old question: would you rather have one or two good ones (plain or fancy...all good), not to be surpassed, just to satiate your lust for good guns?  Or, rather, would you prefer a wall full of composites, dubious wonders, and/or outright fakes?  Your choice.

I can tell you only one thing from my experience.  I have never lost money on a good gun.  However, I, too, have paid my dues, and lost money on substandard merchandise.  I'll admit it.  

Remember: today's flawless gem will be better tomorrow.  Today's junk is tomorrow's junk.   Junk is junk. as quality is quality.  You never need apologize for a good specimen, and, believe me, when you go to sell something, your friendly dealer will spend hours explaining to you why your piece "just won't fetch that price these days; if it were not for that flaw..."  Come on, you know the game.  

As for the ALR library, it is pretty good, relatively speaking.  It is over 50% real.  

Wayne  
« Last Edit: May 30, 2010, 04:28:00 AM by jwh1947 »

Offline louieparker

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Re: Problems of Collecting Grand Master Rifles 101
« Reply #1 on: May 29, 2010, 04:28:18 AM »
Wayne

Are you saying that 47% of the rifles we put into the museum are phonies ?  Louie Parker

Offline lexington1

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Re: Problems of Collecting Grand Master Rifles 101
« Reply #2 on: May 29, 2010, 04:51:20 AM »
Well, being that I'm not a millionaire I guess I'm just stuck with the trash.  :o  I actually like anything associated with these old guns. It really doesn't bother me having restored guns, as long as I know what has been done. To me they are all valuable links to a past that I am quite enamored with. 

Offline Cody Tetachuk

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Re: Problems of Collecting Grand Master Rifles 101
« Reply #3 on: May 29, 2010, 06:17:20 AM »
Since I seriously doubt that a collector I know personally is a millionaire let alone a MULTI millionaire, I gather your hypothesis then suggests that his collection must be comprised of low end examples at best. I suspect that Joe would take exception to that conclusion and rightfully so.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2010, 09:13:39 PM by Acer Saccharum »

California Kid

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Re: Problems of Collecting Grand Master Rifles 101
« Reply #4 on: May 29, 2010, 08:02:41 AM »
Has to be related to the great pinyone.

Offline JTR

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Re: Problems of Collecting Grand Master Rifles 101
« Reply #5 on: May 29, 2010, 04:23:46 PM »
And in a perfect world fairies would flutter and cavort through the air with a bottle of Rakija in hand simply to put a smile on our faces, we’d all be multi-millionaires and every Kentucky rifle would have come down through time absolutely perfect and completely unmolested! ::)

As for the museum, since it was created as a learning and educational tool, perhaps you’d be good enough to go through the guns, and post a list here of those that are fakes?
I realize that some, even a lot, have had some restoration, but to simplify matters, just list the fakes so they can be removed.

John  
« Last Edit: May 29, 2010, 07:17:41 PM by JTR »
John Robbins

jwh1947

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Re: Problems of Collecting Grand Master Rifles 101
« Reply #6 on: May 29, 2010, 04:29:55 PM »
Louie, over 50% means over 50%.  Could be 51-99%, right?  Yes, there are some bad ones in there.  

J. F.  has a great array of guns and if you count them up and evaluate them, they would fetch a tidy sum.  Unless you are his accountant what do you know about his assets or gross worth?  Some people who otherwise live modestly have wheelbarrows full of cash, some of which, incidentally, their accountants might not even know about.  

As for citing the fakes in the library, I would have been happy to show the problems, but, alas, my association with that group was short lived.  I have been formally disassociated and they no longer communicate with me. So, help them with pointing out the problems?  Truly, you jest.

I stand by my words.  Now for breakfast and serious stuff.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2010, 05:34:01 AM by jwh1947 »

Offline Tom Currie

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Re: Problems of Collecting Grand Master Rifles 101
« Reply #7 on: May 29, 2010, 04:41:13 PM »
Wayne, Trying to figure who you were trying to take a shot at, non millonaire collectors or the library itself. As for the library, that's a left handed compliment if I ever saw one.

Offline JTR

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Re: Problems of Collecting Grand Master Rifles 101
« Reply #8 on: May 29, 2010, 04:57:03 PM »
"So, help them with pointing out the problems?  Truly, you jest."

So okay, don't help the library crew. Help the new guys here that might be looking at the pictures thinking they're looking at an original gun!
So please post a list of the fakes for the good of the forum!

John


John Robbins

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Problems of Collecting Grand Master Rifles 101
« Reply #9 on: May 29, 2010, 06:50:55 PM »
I collect with in my means which means relics. relics can tell you as much or more than the million dollar guns....and, you can be sure nobody has messed with them to increase their value. ;D
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline T*O*F

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Re: Problems of Collecting Grand Master Rifles 101
« Reply #10 on: May 29, 2010, 07:57:06 PM »
Quote
I collect with in my means which means relics.
Mike,
I agree with your statement, with some reservations.  Folks can buy guns for study or investment, if it's within their means.

I have a young friend who lives up your way.  Both he and his wife have good jobs.  He started buying guns off the auction sites and would ask me what I thought about them.  He was always more interested in getting a "deal" than what he was buying.

I finally had to slap him upside the head to get his attention.  I told him it's better to own five $10K guns or ten $5K guns than one hundred $500 guns.  He payed attention and started selling off what he had acquired and used the money to start buying higher quality guns and is on his way to having some fine "investment quality" guns.  Unfortunately, it's a lesson I learned too late.  Wanna buy some relics?
My kids will probably sell mine for beer money at an esate sale when I die, so I started selling them off.  If they aren't an investment, what good are they sitting in a gun rack collecting dust.
Dave Kanger

If religion is opium for the masses, the internet is a crack, pixel-huffing orgy that deafens the brain, numbs the senses and scrambles our peer list to include every anonymous loser, twisted deviant, and freak as well as people we normally wouldn't give the time of day.
-S.M. Tomlinson

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Problems of Collecting Grand Master Rifles 101
« Reply #11 on: May 29, 2010, 08:49:58 PM »
Being a gunbuilder by profession I find the relics a great educator. I also use the mounts to get castings from to build guns with. Nothing like original parts as patterns!
 Now, as far as investments go I by other guns than muzzleloaders, stuff I know the market better on. If you're smart you can find some very good investments, far better than the stock market.
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

jwh1947

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Re: Problems of Collecting Grand Master Rifles 101
« Reply #12 on: May 30, 2010, 12:40:11 AM »
Maybe you did not hear me the first time.  I was once on the library committee, was asked to serve, then was ousted.  No big deal.  I neither want to be back on that committee nor would I accept an invitation to again serve.  John, now, after this disrespect from others, you expect me to be a lightning rod for that illustrious group?  Point out their problems?  I like you; you have a good sense of humor, too.   Have a big snort of Rakija first, then call me on the phone.  My number is not unlisted.

OK, let's take a positive approach for those beginners that is based on handling guns.  I offer 1/2 dozen good ones here in Harrisburg that you can examine, measure and fondle.  All welcome, but call first, as I don't store them at this location.  Also, at Jacobsburg, occasionally during the summer on weekends, Ron G., Joe F. and a few other advanced collectors bring out their goodies for examination.  If they know you are coming, I'll bet someone could accommodate you.  Incidentally, their annual rifle frolic is June 12, all welcome; the gunsmithing shop will be open and running, the museum will be open, and I'd wager that there will be some outstanding rifles there that can be handled.  Also, stop by Dixon's sometime and see what a real Shimmel looks like.  Chuck will pull some off the wall and let you handle them.

If you are a researcher and make prior arrangements, you should be able to get into the "cookie jar" upstairs at the Museum of American History, Smithsonian, Washington, D.C., and handle some historical memorabilia of note, including at least two dozen Kentuckies, some really good.  Frank K. and I have done this, as have others.  I remind you that you must call and make a formal appointment, and you will not be left out of sight.  Worth the formalities.

For learners, try CLA convention in Lexington, KY in August.  Here, you can examine many top guns, as the organization had the foresight to open an additional room at the Rupp Center for KRA people and other advanced collectors to put out originals.  Here you are seeing some of the best that you would see at KRA convention; unfortunately for new students, that show is closed to members only, so go to Lexington and you won't be missing nearly as much.  If approached with respect and courtesy, most of these men and women will let you examine their pieces.

Now, perhaps others from different regions of the country can chime in and add to the list.  Let's focus on places where real ones can be examined, rather than look-through-glass-only museums and photos.  Hope this helps.  Wayne
« Last Edit: May 30, 2010, 05:29:51 AM by jwh1947 »

Offline smshea

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Re: Problems of Collecting Grand Master Rifles 101
« Reply #13 on: May 30, 2010, 05:27:48 AM »
I kinda think I know what Wayne is tying to say....maybe? I cant speak to whats on the library here but I don't think he is talking fakes as much as guns with allot of work.  I am in no way saying that this is true of anything on this site....I wouldn't know especially just from pictures. Any further comment might be like walking the plank.
 Could we all refrain from using collectors names on this site if they are not posting here themselves. Speculating about who owns what and what "it" or "they" might be worth just *#)*^! them off and then they don't want to share with the public. Trust me , this kind of thing gets around.  There is still an echo from the last time names were thrown around. 

jwh1947

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Re: Problems of Collecting Grand Master Rifles 101
« Reply #14 on: May 30, 2010, 05:36:14 AM »
Good point. 

California Kid

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Re: Problems of Collecting Grand Master Rifles 101
« Reply #15 on: May 30, 2010, 06:43:14 AM »
Its easy to understand why your association with the library was short lived. Better head back to the bunker.

Offline HIB

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Re: Problems of Collecting Grand Master Rifles 101
« Reply #16 on: May 30, 2010, 08:31:50 AM »
Gentlemen,  For what it is worth. The answer to anyone  developing a collection of originals is 1] a 20 year plan and 2] research on the subjects chosen in that plan.

I would venture to say you can open 90% of the 'Great Gun" collections with new and sincere research requests or new information you have found on your own. If you understand the rules of the gunroom you will become a friend of the custodian of the subject matter you are studying. Friends sometimes relate to promises and that is how the majority of the major collections have been put together.  Net working! Earn your way in through valid and impressive research. The change from one collection to the next than becomes personal.

As for original examples with restoration: I can live with documented restoration. What I can not live with is restoration that has not been disclosed. I consider collectors who deal in the undisclosed arena as $*@~*$, gunslingers and needle nose bug f--kers. That is the benefit of the 20 year plan. You eventually find out who these people are and where the bad gun resides.

Having said all that and more in the post I lost because of a misplaced upright finger to the  'Grand Oracle'  everyone should remember 2 things: "It is not how many, But how good" and "time and money both run out, but you can always get more money". Except maybe the 'Oracle'     HIB

Offline Fullstock longrifle

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Re: Problems of Collecting Grand Master Rifles 101
« Reply #17 on: May 30, 2010, 03:51:39 PM »
Hey Henry, don't mince words, why don't you tell us how you really feel! ;D  :D

Offline JTR

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Re: Problems of Collecting Grand Master Rifles 101
« Reply #18 on: May 30, 2010, 04:31:40 PM »
Hey Henry, don't mince words, why don't you tell us how you really feel! ;D  :D

 :o :o

John
John Robbins