Author Topic: Fullstock Flint Hawken  (Read 8451 times)

Offline rennikselum

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Fullstock Flint Hawken
« on: June 07, 2010, 12:46:51 AM »
Here is my completed version of a Hawken-ish fullstock Flint. I actually started this long ago as a 2nd rifle but put it on the rack many times while making errors and getting frustrated ( I have finished two other rifles since starting this one).
After reading so many posts on whether or not this rifle was ever produced originally. This is a hawken likeness that I had intended to produce before I was so educated on history.

Please critique while focusing more on my lack of execution rather than the school I was originally thought was an accurate depiction.
This should be labeled as my mistake rifle...I believe I made most of them that were available. Hopefully it shoots well.

It is built around a Rice 38" - 15/16" .45 caliber match grade barrel.

The part of this build I am most excited about was the aqua fortis treatment. It was my first attempt at it and it sure made the curl pop out of this soft maple. I treated it twice with aqua fortis, letting it dry between coats. Applied a liberal amount of linseed oil, and wiped dry then used my propane torch (fanning it across the wood at a safe distance) to heat it. WOW after a couple of passes the oil would start to bubble and the color would jump to a nice dark amber color, along with curl jumping out that I did not see in it originally. I read about this technique on this site in an earlier post...Thanks











Offline Gary Tucker

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Re: Fullstock Flint Hawken
« Reply #1 on: June 07, 2010, 01:28:32 AM »
That's a great looking Hawken!!  The color and finish turned out really good.  You did the right thing letting the aquafortis dry before heating.  Many times heating before it is completely dry can give it a greenish tint.  The Rice barrel should make it a great shooter as well as a looker.
Gary Tucker

Offline Dr. Tim-Boone

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Re: Fullstock Flint Hawken
« Reply #2 on: June 07, 2010, 02:44:16 AM »
Well Ren, I can't tell you whether it looks like a Hawken or not but is is a well shaped and finished working gun. How does it balance?  Looks like you put a steel buttplate on it but all other hardware is brass.....maybe it all should be stell rather than mixed??

I do like the AF stain results and your soft finish in the wood!
De Oppresso Liber
Marietta, GA

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Offline elk killer

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Re: Fullstock Flint Hawken
« Reply #3 on: June 07, 2010, 03:19:54 AM »
nice work,,
but is that brass furniture on a hawken?
only flintlocks remain interesting..

Offline John Archer

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Re: Fullstock Flint Hawken
« Reply #4 on: June 07, 2010, 03:57:17 AM »
There's a full stock Hawken in the Buffalo Bill Historical Center that is brass mounted and I recall seeing another but I don't remember if it had a full stock.

Best,
John
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Offline VP

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Re: Fullstock Flint Hawken
« Reply #5 on: June 07, 2010, 05:13:09 AM »
A great looking gun. Your finish is excellent. I love the color and how the curl stands out. Very good job inletting everything.

Offline Curtis

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Re: Fullstock Flint Hawken
« Reply #6 on: June 07, 2010, 03:51:11 PM »
Beautiful rifle, very precisely done, you did some nice inletting there.  You might want to think about counter sinking that screw on the tang, and some molding on the cheek piece would stand out nicely.  I love the color and finish.  Thanks for sharing!
Curtis Allinson
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Sometimes, late at night when I am alone in the inner sanctum of my workshop and no one else can see, I sand things using only my fingers for backing

Offline rich pierce

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Re: Fullstock Flint Hawken
« Reply #7 on: June 07, 2010, 04:21:54 PM »
looks great.  I'd like to see a top down view of the tang to see how you treated that. No problem for me with the brass on an early Hawken-ish rifle, especially since there are no examples to go on.
Andover, Vermont

Offline Roger Fisher

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Re: Fullstock Flint Hawken
« Reply #8 on: June 07, 2010, 04:55:53 PM »
Love the colour.  The butt plate is brass.  Looks to me as if the plate extension dips in to the comb line and puts that line out of whack somewhat.. That rear screw in the barrel tang could still be set in further.  The comb looks to my eye at least to need a couple moulding lines cut in and the comb itself looks too long and does not do the proportions in that area much good.  I would like a rounded front end to the lock moulding and opposite lock moulding rather than that semi pointed shape.  Someone could post Hawken photos to show this.  (And if I'm right or not)

Better minds than mine should critque anyones work I only am pointing out what would look better to 'me' ;)

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Re: Fullstock Flint Hawken
« Reply #9 on: June 07, 2010, 11:28:46 PM »
I have seen that pointed lock mortise on an original Hawken, but it was a late one.

IMHO, real nice work for a mistake.  ;D

There are photos of a coupla originals on the Cody Firearms Museum page.

http://www.bbhc.org/collections/BBHC/ObjectList_CFM.cfm?filter=byMade

The halfstock with the pistol grip has the pointed lock mortise.

This fullstock is brass mounted.

http://www.bbhc.org/collections/BBHC/CFM_ObjectPage.cfm?museum=CFM&VarObjectKey=32976

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Fullstock Flint Hawken
« Reply #10 on: June 07, 2010, 11:49:33 PM »
I have about forty or so images of original Hawken rifles.  One has a scroll guard and butt plate that are of brass, and it is a half stocked plains rifle.  Also, only one of the rifles has what could be termed pointed ends on the lock panel, and it too is a half stocked plains rifle.  The rest all have rounded forward ends, and a somewhat pointed rear tail.  In all cases the moldings around the lock and off side panels are more gentle and rounded than the rifle that is subject of this thread.  Your moldings are a little too severe.
Roger is correct...the tang screw heads should be countersunk and flush with the tang, as should the butt plate screws.
Overall, your architecture is quite good, and your workmanship is very nice.  If I could generate that colour, I'd be delighted.  thanks for posting pictures of your rifle.  It should be a good shooter.
D. Taylor Sapergia
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Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

Offline rennikselum

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Re: Fullstock Flint Hawken
« Reply #11 on: June 08, 2010, 03:55:26 AM »
Thanks all for the compliments and critiques.

As far as the many roadblocks & indecision that I encountered as I was building this gun, the pointed lock panels was the part I questioned all the way to the last minute right before staining. As I had only seen one picture of a Hawken with a lock panel resembling this feature, I believe it was on a half-stock. I kept telling myself that it would lend itself to a slimmer appearance...If I would do it over I would round the front of the lock panels.

Of course there are many other things I would hope to improve, drilling pin holes in a straight line down the forearm, rounding the wrist more before I took off too much wood, same for the lock panels maybe a little more pronounced, the nosecap could possibly be a little longer or at least the transition to the ramrod groove.

The screw heads still perplex me abit, when to file flush or when to leave domed above the countersink. After looking at the pictures I can clearly see the underside of the screw cap above the countersink, gotta fix that. Thanks for that observation.

The other major item is the cast off I put on the stock, while it feels very comfortable, it is unsightly because of the long tang.


Thanks again







Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Fullstock Flint Hawken
« Reply #12 on: June 09, 2010, 03:03:04 AM »
On your next Hawken, you might leave the front end of the trigger plate square rather than rounded like a Tennessee rifle.  And after the tang is fitted to the breech plug if it's a hooked one (or not), bend the tang to the right to align with the centre of the wrist.  Your workmanship is great...just a few wrinkles that you can work on.  The radii of the wood as it comes to the lock and off side panels, could be larger, so that the transition is not so severe.  I've only seen pictures of one Hawken rifle that had really sharp edges to the panels and cheek piece.  ALL the rest are rounded off, and I suspect were made that way.  It goes against my grain too, but that's how they made 'em.
D. Taylor Sapergia
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Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Fullstock Flint Hawken
« Reply #13 on: June 09, 2010, 07:47:22 PM »
The Hawken rifle is harder to make than people think.
Most are heavily used and rounded.
This is the "Bridger" rifle, a late S Hawken in the Museum in Helena.

 Note the varnish wear  at the edges of the  lock panel.
Looking closely at the front of the lock panel shows indications that the rifle was carried in a "loop" on the saddle probably in a cover as was common in the west. There is more wear at the front of the panel than there is toward the rear. It is subtle but I am sure this it evident and unless one knows what to look for it may simply be considered as how it was made. Now I need another trip to the Museum in Cody ::)

Did the owner, the rifle has had at least 2 "back in the day" it seems, rest a hand on the wrist while riding? How much dust had permeated the gun cover and how abrasive was it?


This trade gun seems to show a lot of wear at the front of the lock panel. Good chance its been carried in a loop horseback. Hanging muzzle down, probably also in a cover. These were both common into the cartridge era and LA Huffman pictures a Sharps slung in this manner in "Before Barbed Wire" circa 1880.
Most of the guns everyone sees with "saddle wear" are actually victims of being hauled about in wagons. Saddle wear is far less extreme and is more subtle. It can go unnoticed unless the method of carrying is considered and then the wear becomes more obvious.



So while I would hesitate to proclaim the Hawkens all had sharp edges I would not assume they all did not either. How was the wood prepared for final finish? Was the wood burnished? Did this blur some edges? Many questions, few real answers. Unfortunately when Sam was interviewed in his "golden years" (ha!) this was no one of the questions the newspaper asked.



This is Manton shotgun and it lacks razor sharp edges as well though its pretty good.

To return to the  critique of the flint Hawken that started this thread.
Its a nice rifle (read this sentence twice) and what follows is *MY* opinion on how to make the next one better. Bear in mind I disassembled my first flint Hawken and used the stock for firewood when it was about 8 years old and I finally moved to a town with a ML gunsmith in residence who was pretty good. Building guns from pictures can be tough.

Again, its hard to make a Hawken and even harder by just buying parts and putting them in a stock. Most parts are a little "off" and the precarved stocks are too. Using brass is perfectly acceptable if that is what is wanted.
The primary problem with the lock panel area is the LOCK which is really beyond the average makers control. Stuck with what is available so this must be factored in. I have used one of these to make a rifle that was somewhat Hawken like. I used a J&S stock pattern then drifted to something more generic. The lock is WAY too big and the shape is really not right. As a result it makes the rifle too big in places.
Its too big and has too much bend for a good quality late English lock of 1800-1820.

The rifle here could have been improved somewhat by looking closer at J&S lock panels and THEN making the lock bolt side panel subtly DIFFERENT so it looks better. This is a way to cure the lock problem which is more apparent on the lockbolt side with all that flat wood surface. But it must be done carefully so its not obvious that is different. I was just discussing this with another maker yesterday.
Below are some photos. These are not 100% accurate Hawken copies. They are "impressions" I guess. But not too far off in most places and I pretty much know what places are off.
This is a Don King rifle has good lines and a better lock panel.




This rifle has  1" barrel.


Part of the reason that the lock panels look a little off on the rifle under discussion is that I think there is too much wood on the forend. A common error.




This is illustrates the height of the lock panel at the front on a Don King flint Hawken with a 1 1/8" barrel. There is a lot of stuff stamped and cut on the top flat but that's another story.
The panels are far "lower" at the wrist on these. But this may require some thinking when using percussion or store bought locks. Note that the DK lock is a flat plate in front of the tumbler hole and is beveled behind. This allows the lock panel the be tapered toward the wrist.
The large radius from the forend to the panel is stronger than a smaller radius when there is a lock inlet into the panel which weakens it.
The comb where it breaks to the wrist could be sharper too, not so rounded, i.e. more taper to from the buttplate to the nose of the comb.



This is a FS "Hawken" rifle I built about 20 years ago.

If you don't have John Baird's "Hawken Rifles..." and his "15 Years in the Hawken Lode" get them.
If you do look carefully at the second of the 2 FS rifles in the first book, it appears earlier in the book as well. Its an excellent basis for a Flint Hawken and I think its the rifle Don K had access too when he built his first flint Hawken.

I am going to be  way behind schedule so better get to work or things will be difficult in the AM.
Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

northmn

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Re: Fullstock Flint Hawken
« Reply #14 on: June 10, 2010, 02:08:26 AM »
I hae two guns with that particular lock on them.  It's not a bad lock and gnerally works pretty good, but do yourself a favor and buy an extra frizzen spring to keep on hand.

DP

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Fullstock Flint Hawken
« Reply #15 on: June 10, 2010, 06:00:28 PM »
..and polish it and draw the temp to a nice blue...they are too hard and will break for certain and for sure.  L & R's Ashmore/Manton lock gives fast and reliable ignition, and is easy on flints.
D. Taylor Sapergia
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Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.