Peter & David Moll No. 23 Musket

[Calico Jane]

  It was brought by our ancestors to Indiana from Pennsylvania 1841.  It is in pretty rough shape and was that way when I got it over 35 years ago.

Hope I'm using proper terms, but I know next to nothing about guns other than the research I did on this one when I first got it.  Here is what I can tell you:  It’s a percussion musket measuring  about 60 inches long.  I’ve been told that it is approximately 50 caliber, and I've also been told that it isn't rifled. The top of the octagonal barrel is incised  “Peter  & David Moll Hellerstown No. 23.”  one side of the barrel is incised “J Christ”, and the lock says “C Baker”.  The lock is decorated with a couple of "Pennsylvania Dutch" looking birds, but otherwise, the gun is very plain.

Below are two photos—one of the entire gun, and the other of the Moll inscription.  I can also post closeups of other parts.

Hoping that somebody can tell me more about it.

[jdm]

Peter and David Moll come from a long line of family gun makers.  The family made rifles and pistols from about 1764 to 1883. Peter and David started there business in the mid 1820's.  The partnership ended when David Moll died on August31, 1853. J. Christ is the name of the barrel maker. Your rifle has monetary value but you can't put a price on a piece of family  history like you have. That rifle probably came into your family new in the 1840's . For some of the guys on this site that would be like winning the lottery. If you could post a few more detailed pictures that would help. One of the cheek piece would be good.   Thank you for sharing this .

[Robert Wolfe]

I'd be interested in seeing more photos......

[Dan'l 1946]

Yes, more photos please. It appears to be a rifle, not a musket. It could be a smooth rifle or perhaps it once was rifled and was freshed out as a smooth bore when the original bore became worn. Interesting piece in any case.
                                                             Dan

[Hungry Horse]

 From the picture its hard to tell if this is an antique gun in wrecked condition, or a miss matched combination of old parts assembled by a modern "Gunsmith". But, I agree it is most definitely not a musket, the furniture is all rifle style. Maybe a smooth rifle, but more than likely a worn rifle, as previously stated. The lock appears to be a back action lock, grafted onto a gun that originally used a front action lock. The signature on the barrel is grand, and should be preserved no matter what the rest of the gun turns out to be.

                             Hungry Horse

[Bill of the 45th]

1. It's a rifle, smooth or rifled
2. It's always been a back action firearm
3. It was originally a full stock
4. Value, as a family heirloom- priceless,  It also has value as a study pice, or to a Moll collector
5. It might be worth having a mild restore, i.e. Trigger Guard, extend the the fore arm
6 More pic's please

Bill

[Calico Jane]

First of all, I appreciate everybody’s input.  I want to learn as much about this gun as possible.

As I said, I know very little about firearms, and I assumed that one had to be rifled in order to be called a rifle.  So am I understanding correctly that a rifle can be either smooth bore or rifled, and the same can be said for a musket?  And if so, what is the difference between a rifle and a musket. 

Also, does anybody know what the “No. 23" means?

A bit more background:  I bought the gun from the family estate auction over 35 years ago.  As far as we know, It had been sitting untouched behind a door in the attic of the old family farmhouse since before the 1920s.  The farm house itself had been virtually untouched for that long, as well.  Our bachelor great uncle lived there, and truly it was like stepping back in time to go into the house when we visited him.  For this reason, I’m inclined to believe that our ancestor's gun is an “antique gun in wrecked condition”, rather than one that was cobbled together at a later date.  Or maybe that’s just wishful thinking on my part.

BTW, the overall length of the gun is about 60 inches, and the barrel itself is 44 inches long.

Below are some additional photos.  As you can see, it is in pretty sad shape, but it must have been a real beauty when it was made.

[Dan'l 1946]

   A smooth "rifle" looks like a rifle, but was always smooth bored. A rifle was always rifled. Sometimes a rifle was freshed out--re-bored--when the original rifling became badly worn. It could then be re-rifled or left smooth.
   This could be a later re-stocking of a barrel from an actual Moll rifle, hence the name engraved on the barrel. Still worth preserving.
                                     Dan

[James Wilson Everett]

Please check to see if it is loaded.  Sitting untouched behind the door of the old family farmhouse since before the 1920's - better check to see if there is powder & ball there after 100 years.

Jim

[Calico Jane]

Gee, never thought that it could still be loaded!  I never point it at anyone or anything, but still it wouldn't be a bad idea to check.  How would I go about doing that?

[Bill of the 45th]

Jane, as a novice, I'll try and give you simple info.  First you need a ramrod (as it's Called) or something similar.  It needs to be at least 1" longer than the barrel, or about 45" long.  We need to know approximately the caliber (the diameter of the hole)  at this point it doesn't matter what is made of.  Your best bet may be to go to your local, hardware, Lowes, or tractor supply, and get a fiberglass fence stake  or dowel rod or steel rod about 48" long that should fit down the barrel.  You will need to lay it next to the barrel, and mark it.  The true length will be about 1/2" to 5/8" short of the full length.  Now just drop it down the barrel and mark the length, pull it out and place it next to the barrel to see where it is on the outside.  If more than 3/4" to 1 inch it's loaded.  If that happens don't panic, we'll be here to help you, It has been sitting loaded for decades if thats the case.  keep us informed.

Bill

P.S.  It's not uncommon to find loaded antiques like this!

[jamesthomas]

 Jane, if you can let us know where you are (city, state) could be a chance someone is within driving distance that can help you out.

[Calico Jane]

Thanks, Bill.  That makes perfect sense to me and it sounds like something I can handle.  I'll pick up a 4 ft dowel at the hardware store and will give it a try & report back.  And I won't panic, after all, this has been in my house for 35+ years without incident, and I have a feeling that our ancestor's children and grandchildren probably played with it in the early part of the 20th century and possibly were the cause of the damage to it, and they all survived to adulthood.

If, as I suspect and hope, it isn't loaded, everything is peachy.  But if it appears that it is loaded, what is the next step? 

[Calico Jane]

I just checked to see if it was loaded using a fiberglass driveway stake that I had on hand.  I marked it at the full length of the barrel and inserted it into the barrel, and marked that length.  The 2nd mark is just about 7/8 inch short of the full barrel length, so according to Bill's post, it doesn't seem to be loaded. That's good to know, and I thank you for telling me how to do it!

Still wondering about the significance of the "No. 23" inscribed on the barrel.  Anybody have any thoughts on this?

[kaintuck]

If it is loaded jane.....do not mail it anywhere to be " fixed" !
Any proper gunsmith can unload it......NOT a " shade tree" gunsmith!!!......

[Calico Jane]

Pretty sure it is not loaded based on the inside barrel length vs outside barrel length measurements taken per instructions from "Bill of the 45th" in a previous post.  The inside barrel length is 7/8-inch shorter than the outside length, and if I interpret Bill's post correctly, that falls within the "unloaded" dimension. 

Believe me,  there's no way I'll be mailing it anywhere, unloaded or not.

[whitebear]

You have already checked and found it to be unloaded but for future reference, NEVER try to shoot the load out of an antique gun, always pull the load or have someone more experienced do it.  You never know if it is loaded with black powder or if some kid (or unknowing adult) cut open several shotgun shells and "loaded it"  thereby turning it into a bomb just waiting to take off some ones head.

[huntinguy]

why don't I see any forward ramrod pipes?

The breaking around the lock area - Was something changed from original? seems that the lock should have a stop to prevent the hammer from tearing apart the stock. (asking because I have never handled a back action lock and was curious)

[jdm]

If the no.23 is the serial number , I think that would put it in the 1820's. At least the barrel. The rest of the gun appears to me to be a much later restock.I personally don't think it is up to the quality of the Moll family. That is just my opinion. That does not take away from the importance of family history.  JIM