lock questions

[axelp]

I have a rather small-ish lock on my rifle that is different than any other I have owned and I wonder if anyone has run across this. You cannot hardly tell half-cock from full visually. There is zero difference in position. Half cock functions properly---when you bring the cock to full cock, you can  "feel" it go by half cock, but the cock position is about the same.

Anyone have a lock like this? It functions properly other than that.

Ken

[Acer Saccharum]

Maybe it's not dropping fully into the half notch? Take the lock out and see if there is a difference of operation on the bench. Make sure the sear nose does indeed go into the undercut halfcock notch.

[Roger Fisher]

Maybe it's not dropping fully into the half notch? Take the lock out and see if there is a difference of operation on the bench. Make sure the sear nose does indeed go into the undercut halfcock notch.

I had a lock yrs ago not sure but probably a siler... that had metal 'flash' in the half draw notch and had to fine file it out could be his lock has the half draw notch blocked also.

[axelp]

It does have an operational half cock position. I can set it to half cock and the trigger will not trip the cock. And I can pull it back more and it goes to full cock and then the trigger will trip...  Its just that the half cock position is VERY close to the full cock position. I will take the lock out and try it out of the gun... I have had this gun for 5 years and it operates ok, its just annoying and I think it is one of the issues that makes this gun hard to shoot accurately.

I'll try and take some pics of the internals at different stages as well.

thanks,

Ken

[Swampwalker]

Well, without looking at the tumbler, a cure might be as simple as using a thin slitting stone mounted on the dremmel to deepen the half cock notch (carefully!).  This should provide a more positive half cock position, and should provide a little more movment back to the full cock notch.

[Acer Saccharum]

Ken, does your sear have an extension on it like the one shown here? Without that tip on the sear, your cock positions would have very little difference.

[axelp]

my sear does not seem to have the tip or extention your example shows to insert into the halfcock notch...

It does not appear to be broken though... but I need to take it apart to know for sure. I did not build this gun... If it was broken, it must have been broken before I received the gun, because it has always had this issue right out of the shipping box.

I will take the lock apart and look at the sear closer to see if it was broken.

thanks

Ken

[Roger Fisher]

It does have an operational half cock position. I can set it to half cock and the trigger will not trip the cock. And I can pull it back more and it goes to full cock and then the trigger will trip...  Its just that the half cock position is VERY close to the full cock position. I will take the lock out and try it out of the gun... I have had this gun for 5 years and it operates ok, its just annoying and I think it is one of the issues that makes this gun hard to shoot accurately.

I'll try and take some pics of the internals at different stages as well.

thanks,The trigger should not trip the cock from half draw (thats a given) It could break out the notch if you try it often in particular with a sett trikker....   Some folks like a short hammer throw from full draw and I'm wondering if someone filed/stoned that full draw notch closer to the half draw notch to do just that...

Ken

[axelp]

Thanks Roger and all, I will inspect the lock further and see if there is a broken place on the sear. I cannot see it clear enuff assembled. The gun has a simple pinned trigger. 

Since it seems like it has always had this issue, I am usually careful about it, but that does not mean that someone else wouldn't be as careful... The half cock is so close to the full, I can see where a person could inadvertently try to pull the trigger thinking it was at full. hmmmmmm now I wonder if someone I let handle the gun, maybe a long time ago, unknowingly broke my sear? And I was too ignorant about it to notice until now? Are they so easy to break? sheesh.

Well, if the sear flange is broken, can it be repaired? Or does it need to be replaced? This is a custom lock.

Ken

[Acer Saccharum]

Ken, from the photo you sent me, it looks like the sear may have had the extension ground off and the fly removed. It's kinda hard to tell from your pic, so that's why I posted my photo.

If your sear had the extension, the cock would go noticeably farther back. But without the fly, the sear could drop into the half notch, or batter against it. Neither is good.

If the sear is indeed ground, then it's not really shaped to fit the half cock notch. This would be a safety issue.

Tom

[axelp]

wow... Is the lock repairable? sheesh I have shot this gun off and on for years now.... It has never slipped off halfcock, it always had the half and full cock position issue, but it has always functioned properly...

where should I go with this?

Ken

[Acer Saccharum]

Not meaning to alarm you, but without that little tip, the gun COULD be fired if squeezed hard enough*. A replacement sear should be availalable form Stan Hollenbaugh, and probably a fly. I think you'd be back in the running with some simple refitting and polishing.
Stan's site:
stanhollenbaughgunsmith.com
Tom

*actually, even with the tip of the sear in perfect condition, the gun can be fired from half cock if you squeeze hard enough, but something will break: either the sear nose or the tumbler notch. The half cock in NOT a safety, and should not be considered as one.

[axelp]

Well, The lock is a really neat lock. Stan is an amazing craftsman. I have a TON of respect for the guy

The great mystery is, why it does not have a fly? and why the sear flange is ground off?.... This lock has NOT been dissassembled or fiddled with since I got the rifle from the builder... and I am the first and only owner of this gun... I have a message in to the original builder of the gun... He too I trust 110%. He is a friend and an experienced gunstocker... I would be more willing to blame myself than either of them... but I have certainly not altered this lock. It is exactly the same as when I received the gun a few years back...

And so... it remains a mystery to me.  We'll see...

Ken

[axelp]

In looking closer at the lock, I "think" it was designed to be this way... the sear does  align and contact with the half cock position, but it does not go into and "mesh" with the half cock notch like a gear might. So in summary, this lock most probably has not been tampered with, it was probably designed to be the way it is. It functions fine for the most part, it just happens to have a very close half and full cock position and for me personally, I prefer a little more difference in position--- Not sure how, or if, this lock could be tuned and adjusted to reflect that... maybe stoning and reshaping the sear flange to fit deeper into the tumbler notch might move the half cock just a frog hair closer to the frizzen, and farther away from the full cock position, but I am not a qualified lock smith and would never try it myself. Especially since the gun functions as-is?

Maybe if Stan sees this thread he can chime in and educate us on the workings of the really nice and unique locks he makes!

Ken

[axelp]

OK, I took the lock out and really looked close and worked the lock... the sear nose is fine and operates as it should---flawlessly. The pictures did not show the sear nose, and the sear was just not totally engaged in the picture. When I cycled the lock, it slipped right in there perfectly... so the pics were deceiving... sorry about that!

The only thing I can figure, is the half and full notches in the tumbler are set too close together... probably by a frog's hair...I think if the half cock position was just a little bit further away from the full notch, then the lock would have a little more change in position... The best man for this job would be the lockmaker himself... I will try and talk with him and see what he thinks...

thanks all,

Ken

[LRB]

  Just a thought, but since there is no fly, it might be good for the notches to be that close. If you have a light trigger, the half cock would pass by the sear much sooner, lessening the chance of the sear catching it and breaking something. It might even work with set triggers that way.

[axelp]

well that is another issue... this gun does NOT have a light trigger. It is a simple pinned trigger and-- I think anyway--that relocating the pin is the way to lighten the trigger? I am not much of a builder... I have finished a couple longrifles, but never built any. The heavy trigger was one of the issues that got me looking closer to the lock in the first place. Like I said, the lock works fine as-is, even with the heavy trigger. My goal is to tune this gun a bit so I can shoot it better. The question of the close half and fullcock, and the heavier than desirable trigger, combine to at least be one of the reasons this gun is hard to shoot accurately....at least in my experience. The other issue is slow ignition....which I have a chambers WL liner ready to solve that problem. I have a builder friend who just moved to my hood, so I am going to take the gun to him and see if we can tune er up a little, and I can learn something good in the process...

thanks LRB-- and by the way, I LOVE my new French Bourcheron knife... It gave me great service on my May Scout.

Ken

[Stan]

I was alerted to look at this discussion & Ken emailed me last night. There isn't much I can say without seeing the lock. I, over  45 years of building rifles & locks have never made a lock without a fly so I don't know if changes were made by his gun stocker or someone else. Everyone knows that my locks carry a lifetime warrantee against "defective parts or
workmanship" ! If the nose of the sear was shortened that would affect the position of the cock.  Occasionally there is a gun stocker who "knows more" than I do about my locks and makes changes which usually results in the lock being returned to me for repairs.  More I can't say without seeing the lock! Stan

[Captchee]

  
Ill add my 2 cents
 You do not need a fly  if the lock is used with a single trigger .
 Normally however if the  lock is designed  not to have a fly , the ˝ cock will be in just a slightly lower plain then the full cock .
Even with a light trigger pull   the sear will be held away from the  tumbler far enough so as not to catch the ˝ cock . This is facilitated by your pressure on the trigger . That pressure is not there  with a double set .
 Having a ˝ cock close to the full cock isn’t an issue IMO . AS long as the sear engages both notches fully .And the two are fare enough apart for the shooter to  clearly discern one  position from the other ,
 i would contact stan about the lock . . he made it and would know  what is what

As to lightening  you trigger pull .
 There are several way  , as well as different  mindsets on how to do this . As well as how to do it properly .
 Think of it this way . If you have to move a heavy object , you want a lever that  is long . With the pivot close to the object your moving .
 IE if the pivot  point is equal   you have to apply  pressure equal to the weight of the object . But if the pivot is  close  to the object , less pressure or weight is needed to move that object  .
 Now  the depth of that pivot  in the  stock , sets the angle for attack  of the trigger to the sear . How I  discern that location is by  the sear arm itself .
Is the  full cock notch set so that  when  the sear engages , the arm  ends up being at 9 0clock   in its rotation . If so then the trigger can be pinned so that it attacks the sear  at 90 deg “ IE pushing strait up “. if however like on some originals . The sear arm ends up being at 7 oclock . The trigger pivot should be alittle deeper in the stock  Or the trigger bar angled having a  downward slop  so as to take account for the sear moving back in its rotation .
 This is very evident in  original SXS
  

 In some cases  one can still end up with a heavy trigger pull  even after having a properly  located pivot point .
 This is most times seen on production  guns though . NOT on quality  custom locks .
 What happens is  most times the companies put to steep of an angle on the full cock notch “Liability issue” .  thus when you start pulling on the trigger , you actually are cocking the lock  farther back , before the sear can clear the  notch and trip. This combined with a  close to equally pivot point of the sear  makes for a trigger pull from $#*! .

 So with a properly placed pivot . Both to the trigger and stock . You can actually achieve a trigger pull , with a single trigger that  can be to light  for many people to be comfortable with

[Captchee]

 sorry Stan , i see you posted whil i was posting . did not mean to step in your way

[axelp]

Thanks Stan and Captchee and all. What you are saying makes good sense to me. I am totally out of my area and skillset and defer to Stan's obvious expertise with his own locks, and also to the skilled builders on this forum.

Captchee, my primary concern IS regarding the relative closeness of the half and full cock position. It is VERY close... For my own preference, I'd say its too close.  I have to constantly be diligent and also warn folks that try my gun about this issue---I do not want them (or me) yanking down on the trigger when the lock is at half cock...

But just to make sure that I did not misrepresent Stan's product---I will say it again--- the lock is a very nice lock and it does it's job WELL. And I think the cock position is more "preference and opinion" not a true function issue. As far as the fly? Sheesh, I have not ever dissassembled this lock even once---(had no reason to til now) so if the fly is not there and was removed, then it MUST have been removed by the builder, as no one else has touched this lock... To me, the fly is not much of an issue, as the lock has NEVER caught on the halfcock notch when fired... it is fine in that respect.

thanks Again Stan for taking the time to reply,

Ken

[Stan]

Ken! I lost your email address so I will let you know here that your lock is on it's way.
I replaced the sear because the original sear nose was all buggered (is that a word?)up in a way I hace never seen. I have inclosed the original sear for you to look at. The tumbler is exactly as it should be. The bridal screws were loose, the front bridal screw should be hand tight (10 lbs ) the rear screw in the sear should be just snug, no point overtightning them as they are timed.  Stan Hollenbaugh

[axelp]

thanks Stan---that was really fast!!

Ken