Author Topic: evidence for Tim Murphy double rifle  (Read 9632 times)

Mike R

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evidence for Tim Murphy double rifle
« on: June 22, 2010, 03:02:36 PM »
Just to bring the other thread into focus, I'll start this one with more "facts" [maybe]: Richard LaCrosse did a nice analysis of the whole Tim Murphy story [fact & legend] in his book: Revolutionary Rangers (pub.2002).  Beyond the debate of whether or not Murphy made the shot, did he own a double rifle? The answer appears to be "yes". Murphy's son stated that his Dad did own a double, but it saw little use except in garrison duty as it was heavy. Amazingly a ledger page exists from an account book of Isaac Worly, riflesmith in Easton, PA, that among numerous other entries states:

1776, Feby--19th a Rifle Made for Timothy Murphy a Two barrel rifle--both barrels Rifled only one made

Another rifle, perhaps the single barrel he may have carried more often, appears in a photo taken in the 1930s. The photo is in the Old Stone Fort museum. It is supposed to have been Murphy's--of course we all know about false attributions. Anyway it shows "...an early looking style without a patchbox, and appears devoid of most decoration..."

Of course it is possible, and I am sure doubters will be quick to point out that possibility, that the acount book is a clever fake and that the rifle history is misremembered [common].
« Last Edit: June 22, 2010, 03:56:29 PM by Mike R »

northmn

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Re: evidence for Tim Murphy double rifle
« Reply #1 on: June 22, 2010, 07:48:23 PM »
What does sound reasonable to me is the fact that the claims are made about the weight of the double rifle.  Barrels were made heavy back then.  Did he pack it along to Saratoga ???

DP 

Online rich pierce

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Re: evidence for Tim Murphy double rifle
« Reply #2 on: June 22, 2010, 08:00:03 PM »
Thanks, Mike, great info.  A plain gun for Murphy would fit with his plain horn.
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Offline Stophel

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Re: evidence for Tim Murphy double rifle
« Reply #3 on: June 22, 2010, 08:01:53 PM »
Without seeing it...

In the 1930's, ANYTHING made before the Civil War was used in the Revolution...
When a reenactor says "They didn't write everything down"   what that really means is: "I'm too lazy to look for documentation."

Offline Dan'l 1946

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Re: evidence for Tim Murphy double rifle
« Reply #4 on: June 22, 2010, 08:23:37 PM »
Without seeing it...

In the 1930's, ANYTHING made before the Civil War was used in the Revolution...

I was once shown a lovely U. S. Rifle, Model 1841, and solemnly assured that it had been carried in the American Revolution by an ancestor of the present owner. It may have come over on the Mayflower....

Mike R

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Re: evidence for Tim Murphy double rifle
« Reply #5 on: June 22, 2010, 09:50:15 PM »
Without seeing it...

In the 1930's, ANYTHING made before the Civil War was used in the Revolution...

I agree, I have seen too many old rifles backdated way too far--how many spurious Dan'l Boone rifles are there?  A bunch. Be neat to see the photo, though [I have not] and LaCrosse did not duplicate it.  Every collector wants to think he has the holy grail...

Offline Bill of the 45th

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Re: evidence for Tim Murphy double rifle
« Reply #6 on: June 23, 2010, 12:31:45 AM »
Kinda like Ole Georges Hatchet, three heads, and four handles but it's the original.  It looks like there is some evidence though slim that the gun, and man did exist, but as to him being the shooter, may come into question. as there is no doubt there was a lot of lead flying that day, and the range was great.  The Brits didn't like the dirty tactics the colonists were using, hiding in, and behind trees and other ungentlemanly displays that were considered cowardly by the standards of warfare for the time.

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northmn

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Re: evidence for Tim Murphy double rifle
« Reply #7 on: June 23, 2010, 05:28:12 AM »
Ironically, when the British adopted the Baker rifle they had their own legend, Thomas Plunkett.  He sniped off a couuple of French officers.  One account stated at 800 yards. Later it was pointed out that he snuck up within 200 yards.  It was still a pretty good shot and resembles the "unsporting" behavior of the americans.

DP
« Last Edit: June 23, 2010, 05:31:16 AM by northmn »

Offline Dphariss

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Re: evidence for Tim Murphy double rifle
« Reply #8 on: June 23, 2010, 04:05:28 PM »
What does sound reasonable to me is the fact that the claims are made about the weight of the double rifle.  Barrels were made heavy back then.  Did he pack it along to Saratoga ???

DP 

The anecdotal evidence is that he had a double barrel at the battle. The account book seems to say the same thing and might be called a "smoking gun". Putting a single rifle in his hands is not supported by either. It is very likely he owned more than one rifle over time. Its possible the double gun was damaged during the war, either from hard use or from damage of some kind. So what someone said was his rifle at some point afterwards is not really compelling  and he likely had a rifle before having the double built. But going into combat a double might have been desirable.
Look at the photos of the muzzles of some of the original Wenders, there is a photo in RCA and one in Kauffman's book, pretty thin barrels.  I have a 40" barreled Wender that I can hunt with all day with no problem.
I need to weigh it but it feels like about 11 pounds. I could likely calculate what the barrels weigh now  A quick guess says the barrels were lightened about 1 1/4 pounds or slightly more with the trim so the barrels likely weigh about 6 3/4 without the breeches if TOF's weight for the barrels is correct. If the action and wood weigh 4 pounds it would be about 11 pounds. But I would have to weigh it to really know and I don't have a good enough scale handy. I doubt it is over 11.5 though. Its a good offhand gun.
It  has a pair of GM 44" B weight 50 caliber swamps cut off at the breech about 4 1/4" and a little off the muzzle and the muzzle flare filed down somewhat, with the breeches they are 40 1/8" with a 15/16 breech.

Dan

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northmn

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Re: evidence for Tim Murphy double rifle
« Reply #9 on: June 25, 2010, 07:42:15 PM »
Not detracting from your rifle as it si a very nice one.  I do know the English rifles had lighter barrels than American rifles.  Some claimed they liked to use Spanish steel, etc.  At the time of the Revolution there have been comments on American metalurgy as one reason barrels may have been so heavy.  Still if lighter rifles were made it is a possiblility.  The story of Murphy's shots was that he went up into a tree to make the shots, likely for a better view.  This would permit a rest such that it would in no way be likely that it was an offhand shot.  Weight would not have mattered much.  Mostly these storied tend to get exagerrated over the range the shots were made.  Plunkett made the shots for the British, but most authorites do state it was far from 800 yards as some claim.  The armies back then would get very close to each other without trading shots.

DP

northmn

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Re: evidence for Tim Murphy double rifle
« Reply #10 on: June 25, 2010, 07:57:56 PM »
There are conflicting stories on Murphy's shot but they point to the fact that Benedict Arnold told him to take out Fraser.  Murphy was a very experienced soldier who had served with various units from the start, including Brooklyn Heights.  One source says he fired 4 shots, with the first two to get his range while others like to mention that he fired only two.  Since there is a question about the number of shots fired it could have been a single barrel.  Again, the 300 yards may also be in question.  He had quite a history. With legends built up around his assitance at the siege of Middle Fort.  He was even at Yorktown after Morgan had retired.  A monument to him is placed in Middleburgh New York.

DP

Offline axelp

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Re: evidence for Tim Murphy double rifle
« Reply #11 on: June 25, 2010, 09:51:15 PM »
There is a story related to Tim Murphy I might not have all the details perfect its not in fromt of me but... A certain Van Swearingen, a captain of american riflemen from the 8th PA was captured and was being interrogated and he was not cooperating and Fraser was on his way to direct that Van Swearingen be executed for his lack of cooperation. Before Fraser could make it official, He was killed. Van Swearingen was saved.  He was a friend to my ancestor Basil Prather and I think I found this story along with geneology information about the Prather surname. Can't say its true, but its interesting.
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northmn

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Re: evidence for Tim Murphy double rifle
« Reply #12 on: June 26, 2010, 12:37:20 PM »
I remember the ending of a movie onetime where the narrator stated that whether the story is true or not is not important as it ought to be true.  Separating fact from embellishments on historical happenings often seem to fall into that category.  Murphy himself, was illiterate and never wrote any thing down about his past.  Many of these sotries get documented years after they happened.  About the best we can do is assume that Murphy made a long shot on a couple of British officers.  I remember reading an otherwise seemingly accurate portrayal of Simon Kenton where he purposly shot a turkey in the head at 300 yards with a flintlock as if it were a common occurance.  I was immediately skeptical.

DP 

Offline Dphariss

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Re: evidence for Tim Murphy double rifle
« Reply #13 on: June 26, 2010, 10:34:53 PM »
Not detracting from your rifle as it si a very nice one.  I do know the English rifles had lighter barrels than American rifles.  Some claimed they liked to use Spanish steel, etc.  At the time of the Revolution there have been comments on American metalurgy as one reason barrels may have been so heavy.  Still if lighter rifles were made it is a possiblility.  The story of Murphy's shots was that he went up into a tree to make the shots, likely for a better view.  This would permit a rest such that it would in no way be likely that it was an offhand shot.  Weight would not have mattered much.  Mostly these storied tend to get exagerrated over the range the shots were made.  Plunkett made the shots for the British, but most authorites do state it was far from 800 yards as some claim.  The armies back then would get very close to each other without trading shots.

DP
There are a lot of factors here are some thoughts.
The Spanish steel went down in popularity when the English learned how to make steel just as good or better.
The reason the barrels got heavy hear compared to England (for one reason) is that a rifle made from a welded steel/iron mix, damascus if you will, is harder and will not require the same amount of freshing for a given level of shooting and if properly done will be stronger for a given wall thickness/bore size. Also the British landed gentry/royalty/peer was usually not in the same physical condition as some farmer in the US and were more accustomed to light fowlers.
Damascus is usually stronger that iron if done right and is strong enough to stand nitro proof. At least the British machine made stuff of the late 19th century was..
The iron, often old horseshoe nail "stubs" was also more purified, since it was remelted to bond the stubs together and form a homogeneous mass, than the iron generally obtainable in America or in the run of the mill import barrel. W. Greener was complaining of the poor quality of the export barrels being made in England circa 1832. W. Greener's "The Gun" details the use of "stubs". This is NOT W.W. Greener. Its HIS father. The later "The Gun and its Developement" is not the same book. Both are available for download on WWW but the W. Greener is harder to find W.W. keeps getting in the way.  This said the BEST English damascus was pretty good barrel steel by the 1830s. But there was a great deal of steel that was far from "best". This is why its not really safe to shoot the run of the mill 2-5 dollar 1880s-90s BL shotgun with "wire twist" or damascus barrels even with black powder. When there are GOOD damascus barrels out there proofed for smokeless that are still in use at some level.

This said high quality iron properly welded will make a very strong barrel that is virtually "unbreakable". BUT the iron quality and the welding are CRITICAL. See the Springfield Civil War Rifle Musket. It has a skelpwelded barrel. These had and still have an awesome rep for strength.

AND the powder quality improved and the picket bullet was invented. The picket bullet often needs a lot more powder the shoot well than the RB thus the pressure increased even more. Chapman writes of using " ...2 inches in the bore..." of powder with a 38 caliber picket in the 1830s-40s.

The large bore rifled wall guns might have been able to hit someone at 800 with enough certainty to deny the area to an artillery battery etc. Shoulder fired RB arms, its a pretty remote possibilty even with the 20 bore Baker. Possible, but someone would have to be really unlucky to get hit.

There were sea change advancements in iron/steel making all through the 19th century. There was a quality leap circa 1859 and another after the Civil War.  The differences, for example, between the 1874 Sharps receiver, 1860s steel/iron and the Sharps Borchardt of the late 1870s is marked. MUCH better material.
Cast steel is seen in many circa 1830s barrels. The problem with steel is that if its not properly alloyed it can make a pretty poor barrel. This could be a reason why the barrels got so heavy. GOOD iron makes a much better barrel than a steel made basically "by guess and by golly" with a really indeterminate alloy. All sorts of scary inclusions appeared in finished rifle barrels at least into the late 1890s. Look at some 1880-1890s Winchesters etc.
So we have steel and iron making that is by todays standards barely better than beating a meteorite with a rock, poor quality barrels both iron and damascus (massive fluctuations in quality of both) we have better powder and enlongated projectiles. Then the occasional burst gun to get folks attention. Yeah I can see why some Americans wanted a thicker barrel.

Dan
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