Discussion Attaching Rings to Bags

[G. Elsenbeck]

I had not intended to begin this discussion from strictly a historical perspective but, rather more from a design point of view with perhaps some of my own personal observations interspersed.
I began this venture trying to understand ‘why’ rings were used in the construction of hunting bags both by some of our contemporary craft persons as well as those that became before us.  Now aside from strictly an aesthetic view, what is really behind the reasons to use rings as a means to attach strapping to a hunting bag?  Durability (metal is being used), strength (stronger than leather), and/or versatility (allows the user to add other accouterments (thanks for that one Curt))?  Perhaps one of the biggest reason to use rings is to allow the bag to ‘hang’ or ‘drape’ on the wearer more naturally that would evenly disperse the stress on the joints, or if you will, the places where they are attached?  To the bag and strap.  
I’m sure the list is not all exclusive, but from a design point, how exactly how should ‘rings’ be attached to the bag to maximum it’s inherent capability?

I don’t think many of us would argue that the use of rings would certainly add measurable strength to the construction of hunting or shooting bags.  Are they aesthetically?  They can be.  Their versatility?  By the fact that you have a built in place to hang some accouterments, like game hangers, is perfect.  How about evenly placing stresses on the actual strap or bag connections?  Hmmmm, is the jury still out on this one??

As an aspiring bag maker that would like to build a pouch that will have some longevity built in, what is/would be the best way to attach straps to any bag?  Shouldn’t straps be attached to a bag at a slight angle (use of rings or not) to spread the stress more evenly thereby allowing the bag to ‘hang’ more naturally on the wearer?  

I also recognize that there probably isn’t any ‘standard’ angle (degrees) that can be established (especially if only using leather) when building a bag because of taking into consideration the different body types and sizes alone.  However, in my personal observations only, I’ve also noted that besides of what I just brought up there is also the situation of where specifically will the bag be worn?  If one tends to wear their bag where the flap is about even with their waist then the strap angle would be “X”.  Now taking that same bag with the “X” angle and move the bag up further under the arm and the “X” angle now becomes more like the “Y” angle???  Or am I seeing wrong??

If that is true, then wouldn't using rings fix that dilemma??  Or would it??  The point where the rings are attached to the bag, and I’ll refer to them as the “ears” for lack of calling them anything else, what would be the best way to attach them to the bag?  At an angle, or not?  Or, the fact that a ring is attached regardless how it was done, still accommodates its’ function of spreading out the stresses??

I would love to get more inputs and thoughts from others that have far more experiences/skills that would benefit not only this essential beginner but, others out there contemplating making their own bag.  
Gary

[Ole Doc]

  ears would be a good term ... the backwoods bag was referred to as a cannine faced bag prior too ring and strap attachement.
I try to attach straps too the rings so they will slide around the person wearing the bag and then straight when bag is hung up when not in use.
The main use of rings as a harness maker was to bring multiple reins/leads together or to spread stress out.
also used rings too attach horns and chains to straps as well.
When attaching a strap directly to a bag it does stress it and does distort it to some degree.
rings doo help alleviate this if bag is designed correctly.
 I have attached straps at angles too bags so the stress of being carried is reduced. That is when the greatest amount of stree/force is put upon a bag. By the hand grabbing stuff out and the movement while walking with the bag on.
my 2 cents

[T.C.Albert]

I'm speculating only...and only writing my thoughts which are of course formative and subject to change the more I'm able to learn on the topic, but from my observations rings were "consistently" only used on large Germanic, European style game bags. The tabs, or "ears" on those bags were actually integrated into the back panel and flap, and not simple extensions added to the top of the bag...uniquely designed in that way, the bags could most likely carry more weight with out unduly stressing the stitching to the point of early failure etc...but, an American shot pouch isn't as big, nor is it designed to carry as heavy a load as a traditional game bag, so the extreme design seen on the game bag ring anchors isn't really needed...the few old shot bags Ive seen with rings simply had the "ears" in question sewn into the top flap seam, or to the back of the bag as any normal leather strap would be attached...which isn't any stronger that I can see, and in fact actually makes a severe bend in the leather where the ring is attached which is under constant stress and wear, which I think can actually make it weaker? Especially if the leather dries out at the bend where it touches the ring, or an iron ring rusts, causing the leather to deteriorate enough to eventually tear. (I'm guessing that the iron in an iron ring can react with acid in the leather when moisture is added, more or less burning the leather in time..) An original iron ringed shot bag that comes to mind had "japanned" black rings for this exact reason I am guessing? But then again, horse tack as well as bags use iron buckles with equally severe bends etc...but some of the better tack uses brass, I'm assuming because of the reactive factor of iron?  

I'm guessing, and only guessing, that so many rings are used today because guys are using alternative strapping materials and rings solve the question of how to attach it to the bag...besides just liking the look of them in general...which may be more about astethics than pure function?
TC

  

[Artificer]

I can see the advantage of rings to attach things (as in a game pouch) and to better drape the bag on more peoples' bodies when you don't have the person there to fit the straps to on the bag to fit their body contour.  I think it makes the straps weaker when you have to cut and sew the straps in four places for the rings and the stress goes all on the stitches vs on a larger surface area of the strap.  BUT, I don't think there is usually to ever enough stress on a hunting bag strap to worry about it as long as the stitching was done properly when using rings. 

A long time ago, I used to sew the strap/straps to my hunting pouches so they were rather straight up and down with the bag.  I think many original home made bags were like that or perhaps with just a bit of an offset angle for the wearer's body.  Then I began making sword and combination sword & Bayonet/Tomahawk belt frog hangers.  Here's a link to a single frog belt hanger to show you what I mean:

http://www.gggodwin.com/CartGenie/prod-201.htm

 I made my first one or two like most are made with the hangers sewn on rather flat, like the one shown in the link.  When I put one on I had made for myself for a sword and bayonet, I did not like the way the frog buckled or how the sword and bayonet hung when sewn like that.  So I made a second one.  I put the sword and bayonet in the frog and then placed the frog ends so it would sit correctly and the sword and bayonet rested where I wanted it. I marked the position of the two short hanging straps and sewed them on the belt.  After that, I did the same thing when I made them for other people. 

The reason I bring this up is because even as slow or as thick as I can be at times, I figured that if positioning a sword frog was better that way, positioning a bag on a person and marking the best places to sew on the strap ends first and then sewing on the strap ends was also a better way of doing it.  Now, if one makes a lot of bags or makes them for later sale, it is not really possible to fit the bag to the person and strap.  However, if one looks at the offset angle for the strap ends that fit them, one can come up with a sort of a general offset angle for each strap end that would generally fit a lot of people.

Gus

[Artificer]

....which isn't any stronger that I can see, and in fact actually makes a severe bend in the leather where the ring is attached which is under constant stress and wear, which I think can actually make it weaker? Especially if the leather dries out at the bend where it touches the ring, or an iron ring rusts, causing the leather to deteriorate enough to eventually tear. (I'm guessing that the iron in an iron ring can react with acid in the leather when moisture is added, more or less burning the leather in time..) An original iron ringed shot bag that comes to mind had "japanned" black rings for this exact reason I am guessing? But then again, horse tack as well as bags use iron buckles with equally severe bends etc...but some of the better tack uses brass, I'm assuming because of the reactive factor of iron?  
TC

I thought about the severe bend as well.  Military Cartridge boxes have a severe bend when sewing on each of the added two buckles to each shoulder carried box.   Many civilian pouches had one to make the strap adjustable.   You have to have four such bends to add rings.

Good point about the iron possibly affecting the leather.  I believe the saddlemaker at Colonial Williamsburg in the 1980's told me one of the main reasons for using brass on horse tack more often was because of the rusting problem.

Gus

[Ole Doc]

 Another point to consider is all metal was hard to come by in early America, no such thing as scrap.
So to add  rings to a pouch would be a luxury.
The salts in hide attack iron and other carbon based metals.
Alot of carbon knives used to come with instructions , not to store knife in sheath or oil well
before storage.
Almost all tack is strung up with brass fittings and nowadays seeing space aged plastic.
Found the farther west you go researching leather work the less hardware you find on bags
and pouches , simply because they did not have it.
Some of the eastern bags I make have 3 layers of leather across the top to add strength
and allow bag to maintain shape/form.

[BrownBear]

I've carried both in the hills a fair bit, and I notice one difference not mentioned.  Summer to winter I "grow" quite a bit with added layers of clothing, then shed it all in the spring.  For year-round use of the same bag, I'd vastly prefer rings as they self-adjust their angle as I change. 

Weight bearing isn't really an issue for me, because I keep cutting back on the load I put in bags as well as the size of bags.

I do notice that if for some reason I get a horn too high on a bag with rings, it clanks something terrible in active wear.  I simply have to use hangers long enough to put the horn well below the top of the bag if I use rings.

And here's something interesting, perhaps saying more about our generation than previous ones:  Display a bunch of bags with and without the rings, and the lay public is always more interested in the ones with rings.  Bling works today, and it just might have worked as a fashion statement "back in the day."

[Ole Doc]

back in the day ... stuff had to work and function proper.
Equipment was also taken care of.
more so than in todays want it now throw it away age.
I like a ringed strap over a fixed strap everyday of the week.
they work better.

[Pete G.]

I've done both. I like the looks of my own shop made D rings, but sewing the strap to the bag at about a 10 degree angle seems to work much better for a bag that you will actually use day in and day out. If the horn is high enough not to swing around and get in the way, it will end up making noise against anything it clunks into. If it hangs low enough to not hit the rings, it slides forward whenever you duck down under a limb. I will sew a strip of strap on the back of the bag to tuck under my belt to hold the bag in place. May not be exactlly historicaly correct, but it sure makes for a better day in the woods, especially if you are in and out of a canoe all day.