True Brown Stain

[Fullstock longrifle]

I've tried many different stains and finishes, but they all seem to have a good bit of red in the color (some more than others).  I'm also not crazy about the color of a nitric acid finish. 

I want to achieve a true brown color as seen on most antique rifles.  Any suggestions on a stain that would produce that result?

Frank

[Mike R]

I am not sure what you mean by 'true brown' as seen on most antique rifles--the antiques I have seen vary quite a bit in color--a result of a combination of different woods [even different maples stain differently], different original finishes and ages of use [dirt, grease, etc].  Nitric acid, perhaps with some iron disolved in it, is a typical old-time stain.  There are several commercial stains out that I am sure some others will comment on.  Some use feibings leather dye, but I have found that to fade some in the light.

[keweenaw]

Frank,

Most of us work really hard to get those nice red browns!  And, at least to my eye, reddish brown is the common color on the antiques with maple stocks.  The problem I have with brown is that it really isn't a primary color, rather you get brown from a combination of  reds and blacks and yellows and on maple the different pigments or dyes in the stain penetrate the wood to different degrees.  This is particularly a problem if you want a stain that doesn't make the surface of the wood look muddy.  A ggod ferric nitrate stain changes the color of the wood without any appreciable build up on the surface.  There are commercial hardware store type stains that are brown but because maple is so dense by the time you get enough of it on the surface of the wood to make it look brown you might as well have used shoe polish on it because so much opaque pigment is on the surface of the wood.

If you want to try for brown without the reds and without the surface buildup you might try some light fast alcohol dye in "brown".  You can it from a variety of places but I've used http://www.woodfinishingenterprises.com/misc.html# as a source.  They also sell a "brown maple" water soluble aniline dye that will be pretty light fast.  For under ten bucks you can get small amounts of several to try on some scrap and have enough left over from any of them to do a couple gun stocks.

Tom

[Fullstock longrifle]

It seems that most of the commercial stains out there have too much red in them for my taste.  I think the red finishes were more common in the Allentown/Lehigh Valley area of Pennsylvania.  Further west, the stock color tends to have much less red, that's what I was trying to say when I said true brown.

I do quite a bit of restoration work on original longrifles and when the new wood is colored to match the original wood, it frequently it has too much red in it, which is a pain to correct.

I have gallons of stains and dyes, but I was just curious what others had used for color, it's always good to get other opinions and ideas.  Since getting on this site I've picked up several new and different (for me) ways to skin a cat.  I appreciate your suggestions.

Frank

[T*O*F]

Have you tried Birchwood Casey Walnut stain?  Don't even know if they make it anymore.  It gives a true brown color on maple with no overtones.

Also, Dangler used to sell a variety of blended stains for different colors.  I seem to recall that one was just "brown."  Maybe Jim Klein still offers it.

Lastly, Feibings brown leather stain does the same as above.

[smallpatch]

LMF American Walnut has the least red, and is probably just what you're looking for.

All their stains are great.  I've used this one multiple times.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Laurel Mountain Forge sells a big variety of stains (sold through TOW and MBS) and you can get any colour you want - without red.

[don getz]

Frank....I really like the nitric acid my son John has worked up, and it does give a great brown kentucky color, however,
I think it is impractical to use in a restoration mode.   I really don't know how I would use it to stain just a piece of wood
I have just replaced on an old gun using the stuff...........Don

[westbj2]

I recently went to Sherwin Williams commercial outlet here in Minneapolis to replenish some stains that finally got used up after 15 years.  Shocking!!  I was quoted $122 qt. for one color!
This appears to be an alternative:
http://www.gemini-coatings.com/p/12420/Default.aspx
I ordered brown, red, yellow and orange in quarts for less than S.W. wanted for a single qt.  Thins with methanol or Alcohol like the S. W. product.  Will post conclusions when I get a chance to work with it.
Jim Westberg

[Mike R]

Have you tried Birchwood Casey Walnut stain?  Don't even know if they make it anymore.  It gives a true brown color on maple with no overtones.

Also, Dangler used to sell a variety of blended stains for different colors.  I seem to recall that one was just "brown."  Maybe Jim Klein still offers it.

Lastly, Feibings brown leather stain does the same as above.

To me, Feibings dark brown dye has alot of red tones in it on maple.  I have used it on three guns now, but it tends to fade when exposed to bright sun.   A gunsmith friend mixes various Feibings dyes and tries them on sample pieces of wood to get the color he wants.  I seem to remember him mixing in some yellow color to get some of the 'red out' of the brown dye...?

[northmn]

I used BC's walnut stain as ,TOF recommended, on a rifle and it worked, is still made and easy to use.  it is water based and can be regulated by adding water, as BC recommends.  I just applied some "red walnut" stain that is more red than walnut, but is OK for that use.  I too prefer a little less red, but some seen to fade over time to a more brown color.

DP

[Darkhorse]

I used LMF Nut Brown on a rifle a couple of years ago. It will give you a true brown.
The finish is really dark if used straight. If I ever use any again I will experiment with the stain reducer they sell. It seemed so strong it hid some of the depth of the curl.
I built the gun primarily as a Turkey rifle so I wasn't real worried about how dark it was. The rifle has dark browned iron fittings and it actually looks pretty good.
I think LMF's Lancaster Maple looks better (golds and browns) but if you want a dark brown stain go with the Nut Brown.

[Dphariss]

I used LMF Nut Brown on a rifle a couple of years ago. It will give you a true brown.
The finish is really dark if used straight. If I ever use any again I will experiment with the stain reducer they sell. It seemed so strong it hid some of the depth of the curl.
I built the gun primarily as a Turkey rifle so I wasn't real worried about how dark it was. The rifle has dark browned iron fittings and it actually looks pretty good.
I think LMF's Lancaster Maple looks better (golds and browns) but if you want a dark brown stain go with the Nut Brown.

You can likely lighten it by carefully dry sanding it with 1500 or 2000 grit wet or dry paper, if its uncarved. If done when the finish is dry it will also produce a nice shine. This is one of those things I found out the hard way, while trying to fix a boo-boo.
Wet sanding would likely work to but I was watching the color carefully.

Dan

[California Kid]

westbj2- I wonder if these stains are like the ones Bivins used? I think they had toluene in them so they will penetrate through finish. Have you tried them yet? I wonder about the penetration.

[westbj2]

Cal Kid,
One of Johns articles in Rifle magazine in the 80's talked about the S.W. stains.  A member of this board has used stains by Wamler Chemical Co along with the S.W. stains and they are compatible.  Wamler Chemical was purchased a few years ago by Gemini.  No reason to think the formula has changed.  All that said, I have not had time yet to try the Gemini products.  FWIW,  I bought #s NG1405, 1510, 1610, and 1703.  The S.W stains in my experience did penetrate finish to some degree but not as deeply as when first applied to raw wood.   Still had to be very careful sanding around sharp corners.
It may be worth a call to Gemini and talk to their technical dept about the toluene.
Jim Westberg

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

Frank, have you tried the LMF Nut Brown?  you can use their thinner or alcohol to lighten as you please. i did one rifle with it and it is a very "true brown" as you describe it.

I like red guns so I am going to use Danglers brown on one I am building now and will probably add in  touch of cherry. Aniline dies in alcohol seem to work best on new wood. Maching old color on an antique is a challenge for someone more of an artist than I!! ou probably have a whole collection of arcane stains for the "art and Mystery" of gun restoration!!!

Good luck

[Fullstock longrifle]

Thanks guys for the suggestions.  Some I have already tried, but I did find out about a couple that I hadn't heard of before. I appreciate the input.

I only do new stuff occasionally these day, But I still enjoy working on a new project from time to time.  Last Christmas my son created a web page for me.  Because I haven't figured out how to post pictures here, If anyone is interested, you can check it out at http://www.kentucky-rifles.com/ and you can see some of my work.

Thanks again.

Frank

[smallpatch]

Frank,

The American Walnut stain by LMF, has the least red in it of all their stains.  You could give that a try.

I check out your webpage..... nice work.