Virginia Rifles

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

Well in the 1750-90 period apparently loys of people like the Boones went down the Great wagon Road from PA into VA & NC and then what became TN and KY so i would expect that gun styles might reflect that migration. At the same time many were coming over the Blue Ridge from tidwater VA as well... a veritable melting pot of gun styles...potentially.

[Ed Wenger]

I think I understand what Bruce is getting at, and asking in his post that started this thread.  When you look at RCA I & II, or Thoughts on the Kentucky Rifle in the Golden Age (for example), you get various examples of rifles made in specific areas, many times by the same maker.  Most of these builders are from PA.  When you try to do the same thing with a VA rifle, the examples aren't as prevalent.  At least that has been my experience...  And I agree with Gary, even within those PA schools, there's certainly variances, but there's also many similarities.  

I really like Jim Whiskers books on VA rifles.  As you leaf through the pages you find a wide example of rifles that come from many areas of the state.  What you don't see, with some exceptions, is the number of rifles, attributed to the same builder, that you will see in the above publications if you're making a comparison.  I hope that makes sense...  There aren't seven examples of a F. Kleete rifle or A. Haymaker for example and I think this confuses some folks who are looking for lists or specific characteristics.   Add the contemporary guns labeled "VA", and it gets worse.  

It isn't an easy question to answer!  I've found that the more you study, the more you see differences in styles, just like other states and regions that are fascinating.  One thing I've learned from the study of Kentucky rifles is that "never" and "always" aren't words readily applicable, what ever the school / style.  

Great thread and very informative!!

                               Ed

[flintriflesmith]

Gary,
 I guess I am looking for them to be broken down to dif schools like the PA rifles are, & them referred to as such.  So I guess it is not done this way on Va rifles ?  I have seen ? a dozen Va rifles for sale in the past year. Not a one had any type of mention of style, county, school, area, they just said  Virginia rifle.
Keith

Are you saying that you have seen a dozen antique Virginia longrifles for sale by folks who don't know or care where in VA they were made? If so I need to come shopping at your gunshows! Bargains are bound to be had in such a target rich environment!

On the other hand, if you are talking about modern made rifles, I'd say it is a safe bet that the builders themselves are clueless about the diversity of Virginia's many regional styles and just quoting back whatever the kit dealer told them. For just one example of a modern made VA rifle where the regional style is identified take a look at this one from the northern Shenandoah Valley:
http://www.flintriflesmith.com/GunsSince1990/ja_rifle.htm
There are several more old and new VA rifles on my web site.
Gary

[Birddog6]

Oh heck no, not old rifles, these are fresh built rifles.  The gun shows here, they think a T/C Hawken is a old BP rifle !  ha ha !  Only old BP rifles we have at our gun shows are rejects from ALL the other shows.   Parts & pieces & hid in the chicken coop rifles. 

[Benedict]

I really appreciate all the great replies to my question.  I do not consider myself very knowledgable in this area but I have been working at it.  I also know that there are many regional styles in Virginia and I expect every other state for that matter.  I do get tired of seeing lots of contemporary guns labeled Virginia guns with so much variability in their styling.  With Pennsylvania guns, we have lots of books that have them listed by region but all the Virginia gun books have them by maker.  I know it is a complicated subject and really did not expect to get a definitive answer.  What I did get was a lot of discussion and a lot of specific information about some of the regional styles.  That is great and is greatly appreciated.  All of these little tid bits of information help understanding the guns. 

This has been very interesting and informative.  Thank you all.

Bruce


And by the way, Steve, Know that Wallace will be talking about this in Washington and hope I can get there.

[skillman]

To all
Gary   I'mrefering to the Washington Historical Gunmaker's Guild. Hope to see you out here again sometime.
Dave  Hope you can make it. Always good to see you.
Ian    Wish you were here again this year. I really enjoyed last years class. Bye the way, I'm the long haired old guy who spent most of my time in the kitchen and the office. Your wife and mine seemed to have hit it off.
Steve

[Mike Brooks]

I guess I am looking for them to be broken down to dif schools like the PA rifles are, & them referred to as such.  So I guess it is not done this way on Va rifles ?  I have seen ? a dozen Va rifles for sale in the past year. Not a one had any type of mention of style, county, school, area, they just said  Virginia rifle.

Keith

   Keith, VA rifles are broken down into schools just like the PA rifles are. The problem is a largely uneducated muzzleloading gun community. There just isn't the information easily available. When Gusler's book comes out there will be a whole lot more information available. I would suggest you expand your library with books on the Virginia rifle. I think I have most of them...I'd be lost with out them.
 Much of the problem are the uneducated gun builders building a generic gun and slapping the label "Virginia" or "Early Virginia" on it. Really confusing for folks who don't know any better.

[Mike Brooks]

Admittedly unadorned, but a beautiful piece of wood.....an example of a TVM built 'Early Virginia'

What makes this gun a "Early Virginia"?

[Mark Elliott]

Birddog,

I would like to point out that when I have sold a "Virginia" rifle, it has been identified by county, or region, or even builder.    I discuss the key stylistic elements of that county, region, or builder and how I have reproduced them or modified them.    On my southwest Virginia style rifles, I point out that they are my own style with features found from Rockbridge County Virginia to East ( Washington County and adjacent) Tennessee.

If your point is that makers of "Virginia" rifles are ignorant (myself included) about Virginia rifles, your point has been made.  Like Mike said,  when Wallace starts getting his books out, we will all be better informed.

Mark E.

    

[Mike Brooks]

To me, its just an excellent quality, good looking, .62cal smooth rifle Flintlock that I had built for hunting.

Sounds like a pretty solid description to me.

[Don Getz]

I remember years ago whenever a gun turned up that did not fit into any of the standard Pennsylvania "schools" of gunbuilding, they would be referred to "it must be a southern gun", who knows, maybe even some of them were made in
Virginia...........Don

[G-Man]

Shumway openly stated that thought process in RCA - i.e. there are examples where he stated that certain guns were assumed to be southern solely by virtue of them not lhaving features that made them easily associated with any of the well known gunmaking centers of Pennsylvania.  And it worked both ways - there are rifles attributed in RCA as southern that are now believed to have been made in Pennsylvania, and some rifles attributed in RCA to Pennsylvania or unknown that are now believed to be southern. 

In the early period especially, there was a lot of migration southward from Pennsylvania along the Great Wagon Road.  Wallace's research has also put forth some interesting new ideas on the possibilities of two-way sharing of riflemaking concepts along that route as well, by way of Virginia riflemen carrying guns, ideas and in some cases gunsmiths themselves north; intermarriage of Virginia and Pennsylvania gunsmithing families, etc.  Simon Lauck is one really interesting example in this regard. 

There was a large migration from Virginia and North Carolina in the late 1700s and early 1800s for points west - to East Tennesse, the Cumberland plateau and central Kentucky, so the spread of these ideas after the revolution continued. Consider Joseph Bogle - from York County Pennsylvania, moved southward through Rockbridge County Virginia and ended up in Tennessee. Or John Bull - born in and probably trained in Maryland, and ended up in East Tennessee and ultimately northern Alabama.  Think of the influences they were exposed to growing up, traveling south and west, and finally working in areas that were the gateway to the southwestern frontier, with folks from many points east and (with their rifles) moving by and into their regions all the time, yet still isolated from many of resources, and competition, that were in the more populated areas to the east.

I was once told by someone at the TVM booth at Friendship that the "Early Virginia" hardware was actually based on a Hershel House iron mounted contemporary piece.   (This is a popular style of Hershel's - check the guard and buttplate on the CLA raffle gun from 2 years back).  Hershel has a knack for absorbing original influences and creating something unique of his own.  When I look at the guard and buttplate I see the possible influence of several pieces, including the Haymaker guard with it's long bow and that oblique angle on the inner front of the bow. Also, to me, that buttplate with the rounded heel looks lto me ike it was influenced by those parts that came out of the grave in Alabama and are believed to be southern and included a captured lid box, which you start to see on some Virginia-made pieces by the 1780s.   Wallace actually attributes the grave relics in this case to be of Salem NC/Moravian origin in one of his Muzzle Blasts articles.

Guy

[JTR]

Admittedly unadorned, but a beautiful piece of wood.....an example of a TVM built 'Early Virginia'

What makes this gun a "Early Virginia"?

To me, its just an excellent quality, good looking, .62cal smooth rifle Flintlock that I had built for hunting.

To me, that's a much more accurate and appropriate description of this gun, instead of an early Virginia!

Now days, I think the words Virginia, or Early Virginia, just sort of have a romantic ring to them, and maybe that's why some modern guns that aren't made to any particular maker, region, school or state characteristics are tagged with the name?

And like Don said, this doesn't just happen with new guns as lot's of originals have origin questions as well.
Once apon a time I bought a good looking raised carved, unsigned rifle. The seller suggested that it might be a Virginia gun, for lack of a better description. I already had a Henry Spitzer rifle and this one didn't look anything like it, but I bought the gun anyway because I liked the looks of it. To make a long story short, after sending pictures of the gun to a good many Virginia gun collectors, not a single one of them thought it was made in Virginia! I was never able to pin a location on that rifle, and eventually traded it off, simply as a nice looking gun.
John

[bgf]

I have enjoyed this discussion thoroughly, and even though I know nothing compared to the rest of you, I've come out feeling not quite so ignorant as I did before.  The "Virginia" tag on a rifle or kit made no coherent sense to me, and now I know that was with good reason.  Thanks. 

On the other hand, I'm drawn like a moth to flame to many of the Virginia-built or influenced rifles.  I think the distance from the establishment (the "schools"), the variety of schools represented (often simultaneously), and a somewhat stronger English influence (from the Tidewater), makes the rifles generally more interesting and less predictable than the ones from PA.  Certainly, the maker's mark is more unique and distinct in many cases (cf. Bogle and Davidson, who almost certainly knew each other).

[Ian Pratt]

  Steve - Hey man good to hear from you, guess this means you have upgraded to a computer that doesn't run on vaccum tubes, I'll send you an e mail later on so as not to clutter up this conversation.  Great group of people out there at the Washington Historical Gunmaker's Guild, Maryellen and I hope we can make it out there again some time.

  I want to say I am glad to see this discussion continuing and hope the good points being made are going to sink in. Sometimes the facts and the details don't jump out and beat you over the head but they are still there to be found    
 

[Mike Brooks]

Then, when you consider a rifle that has none of the typical identifiers like carvings, patchboxes, etc...it seems that my unadorned version would most appropriately be label with the loose, general term of only "Early Virginia".

There is nothing about it that would point to it being either "Early" or "Virginia". Goona have to call i something else, perhaps "Contemporary Rifle" would be appropriate. Really doesn't matter, it's your gun, you can call it a Garand if you want to.
 Actually, There are many unadorned originals out there that know one knows where they were built, they are generally labeled as a "KY rifle of unknown origin"....nothing wrong with that either.

[TPH]

Then, when you consider a rifle that has none of the typical identifiers like carvings, patchboxes, etc...it seems that my unadorned version would most appropriately be label with the loose, general term of only "Early Virginia".

There is nothing about it that would point to it being either "Early" or "Virginia". Goona have to call i something else, perhaps "Contemporary Rifle" would be appropriate. Really doesn't matter, it's your gun, you can call it a Garand if you want to.
 Actually, There are many unadorned originals out there that know one knows where they were built, they are generally labeled as a "KY rifle of unknown origin"....nothing wrong with that either.

Mike's right, it may more appropriately be called a "contemporary interpretation" of a generic Pennsylvania longrifle. Nothing wrong with it, it is well made and has good American longrifle style with a beautiful piece of wood and, maybe more importantly, it fits your measurement requirements. You can be, and obviously are, proud of it.

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

Course it could be called a contemporary interpretation of an American Long rifle....since it can't be attributed o any county or state, but probably someplace on the American continent......

Just as there are some that are thought to be PA guns but no name or location is confirmed...I am sure their are VA, NC, SC, GA and TN guns that are unclassifiable beyond some general name such as American...And of course there are some that can be located "1770s in Norfolk, 3rd street and Dolphin Ave., next to the old pier. " and with the makers name as well.

[rich pierce]

Probably worth mentioning that it took time and a concentration of gunmakers, probably with apprentices and journeymen working for different masters in a locale for a recongizable "school" to develop.  Probably stability and structure, at least for a period of time.  This was easily accomplished in a tight society like the Moravians. 

It also takes a certain critical mass of intact, published originals to have a gunmaking school recognized.  It also takes collectors who can see and put together the story.  Another factor is the survival of original guns.  If a tree falls in the forest and nobody hears it, did it make a sound?  Similarly, if there was a school of riflemaking, and no examples or only one survived, we'd never know about it as a school.

The Pennsylvania schools were so readily identified, named, etc because we'd see many examples of work by one gunmaker, all found and collected locally right where they were made, then similar rifles by another maker, signed and collected in the same locale, then the real researchers went and found all about the gunmakers.  They did the good research that continues today.  I think several of the  factors menioned above have made it harder to define Virginia "schools" of longrifles.

[Kermit]

Pennsylvania rifles, Kentucky rifles, Virginia rifles, Tennessee rifles, Ohio rifles, Jaegers, English rifles--and the New England and/or American fowler. We won't even bring up canoe guns...

It's like using "Italian car" to describe anything from a Fiat to a Ferrari. 

Keep this coming. I'm learning a LOT.

[54ball]

It is most likely, almost certain, that there are several "schools" lost to history from the South.  There is no telling how many examples of 18th Century rifles that burned along with the home place in the Valley of Virginia in 1864-65.  The same can be said for Georgia, the Carolinas, Tennessee, north Alabama and Mississippi.  The South East was a region that was devastated in the 1860s by war.  It did not recover until the 1940s.  Some areas as of now still have not recovered.  Monroe County Alabama's peak population was in 1860.

 My point in this is the War Between the States chewed up a lot of the surviving southern rifles. 

 Many more were probably lost in the twentieth century due to neglect  and the fact they had no "value" compared to their Pennsylvania and Kentucky cousins.  Ironically  Today an honest to goodness confirmed Kings Mountain, OvertheMountain Men, Cowpens, Watauga, Boonesborough and Saratoga used longrifle of any origin even europeon would be the Holt Grail of longrifles.

 Since we know that rifles most certainly existed in numbers in the back country of South West Virginia " Tennessee", north Georgia and the Carolina back country and the fact we have so very few examples of rifles from this region, this leaves a lot of room for contemporary makers and suppliers to market and produce a "Virginia" rifle to fill this niche. 

 A well researched southern 1770s-80 rifle can be made today.  This gives a Contemporary maker a lot of room to create what they think a Revolutionary southern rifle should be.  This is not at all a bad thing.  Done with research and what was known at the time a very good impression of the frontier rifle can be made.  Again it must be remembered that it is a modern makers impression of a lost style not the lost style itself.