Author Topic: Contemporary Longrifles as Documentary Statements  (Read 10519 times)

Offline flintriflesmith

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Contemporary Longrifles as Documentary Statements
« on: August 02, 2010, 05:01:09 AM »
The new volume of American Tradition is being discussed in the Back Fence section but I feel that Mark Silver's article deserves a thread of its own as it relates specificly to rifle building.

Not only are there some excelent examples of antique and contemporary rifles pictured in the article but I think some of Mark's observations are very related to the subject. On page 6 there is a paragraph that begins: "A myriad of details affect the actual visual presentation and intangible feel of the piece...." To me the section that he wrote next relates to the ongoing thread here about what makes a great rifle. What do any of you think?

Gary
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Offline Dr. Tim-Boone

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Re: Contemporary Longrifles as Documentary Statements
« Reply #1 on: August 02, 2010, 05:40:21 AM »
Well as soon as I receive my copy and get a chance to read it I will let you know :o   ;D
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Offline smylee grouch

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Re: Contemporary Longrifles as Documentary Statements
« Reply #2 on: August 02, 2010, 05:43:57 AM »
Gary, I think he makes a very good point and am glad to say iot sounds as though there are still two more instalments to his article.      Gary

Offline Larry Pletcher

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Re: Contemporary Longrifles as Documentary Statements
« Reply #3 on: August 02, 2010, 03:05:18 PM »
Gary,
I'm glad you started this.  Mark's article fits in with the earlier topic here on bench copies, and  I'm looking forward to his next piece on Interpretations.   The article's photography is incredible - as is the photography throughout the issue.

Regards,
Pletch
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Pletch
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Offline Benedict

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Re: Contemporary Longrifles as Documentary Statements
« Reply #4 on: August 02, 2010, 06:17:07 PM »
I read my copy a few days ago and will be reading it again.  I thought Mark's comments were right on as usual.  One thing that he mentioned briefly, IIRC, is the difference in speed that the workmen were working at.  The original gunsmith was working "in workman like manner" to make a living and turn out a good product.  Today's craftsman, particularly those doing a bench copy, are working to make a living (in some cases) but also to turn out a product that is "exactly" the same as the original.  I know from my own experiences trying to make a pair of identical pistols just how difficult the second pistol is.  The first one I can do by eye almost but the second has to have its measurements constantly checked.  I found it very painstaking and not nearly as much fun.  I am not saying this as well as I would like but I hope you get the idea.

Bruce

Offline skillman

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Re: Contemporary Longrifles as Documentary Statements
« Reply #5 on: August 02, 2010, 06:49:01 PM »
Bruce
This is a little off base. As a life long scale modeler I agree about the difficulty of making a perfect copy. I haven't read Marks article so this may not be relevant . Learning to copy something exactly, especially to scale is another whole set of skills. Every set of skills you have to learn takes time. Some of us came into this hobby with all the necessary skills and some of us had none. We have to learn the schools, the architecture, the history, A lot of things. The craftsman of the old days was interested only in the end product and the satisfied customer. He worked toward this end from the time he began his apprenticeship. Today we have A job that takes up a good share of our time.  We have to work in learning all the elements of the craft as we can. Most of us began this journey late in life. I think I understand where Mark was coming from but for me I'm not concerned with the speed I'm going. I'm just concerned with enjoying the journey.
Enjoy

Steve
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Offline bama

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Re: Contemporary Longrifles as Documentary Statements
« Reply #6 on: August 02, 2010, 08:02:32 PM »
I think Marks article is very well done and pic's are outstanding. I for one am glad to be living in a time when so much knowledge is being shared and I am able to view the quality of workmanship that is being done today. We have some very talented craftsmen that are capable of doing work that rivals the early masters.

I think a bench copy of our grand historical pieces by craftsmen such as those in Marks article that have the capabilities to produce a true document piece are serving to help preserve our history. 

Only a few of us will ever have the privilege of having a true historical piece to even attempt to do a document build.

The rest of us will have to continue to look at pictures and attend as many shows we can in hopes of seeing these pieces to get the feel for them.

Hopefully the outcome from these document pieces being built will be shared knowledge in how they were built so that we can continue to build contemporary guns to the same level.

I think that this has been the goal of many in our sport for a long time and I think those fruits of labor are starting to pay off, just look at the grand work that is being done by so many today.
Jim Parker

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Offline HIB

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Re: Contemporary Longrifles as Documentary Statements
« Reply #7 on: August 03, 2010, 05:00:05 AM »
Gentlemen,   There is alot to be said regarding documentation of an original rifle.  Mark's next 2 articles will certainly put a full view on the subject and generate a fair number of opinions. All well and good and well intended. I for one am of the opinion that a new maker must study the old master if they want to produce a gun that follows the tradition.

I am a collector of original 18th and 19th century Kentucky's. Didn't always have the necessary $ to own an original when I first started pursuing my interest. My first 2 contemporary builds were abysmal. They shot good but they were butt ugly as I only had pictures to work from. An individual who was watching me practice 50 yards, 100 yards and speed loading one day approached me from the parking lot where he had been observing my efforts. He spent a few minutes looking at my rifle and finally said " you have never seen an original have you?"

I was 24 and that moment is where my education began. The gentleman, Al Goodman, invited me to his home where I had the opportunity to handle a Dickert, John Amos and several other originals. I spent hours studying those guns and returned at least a dozen times after my first visit. The old masters had a certain way of doing things. It was as if a light went on and I quickly learned from the experience. It was truly an enlightenment and I  knew the experience and education would some day require repayment. It seemed only fair then and it still seems fair today.

For the last 8 or 9 years the Kentucky Rifle Foundation has been very active in bring examples of the original guns to public events and CLA show .  The KRF is considered the Educational Arm of the KRA collector group and as such participates in 6 or 7 shows a year.. Many of you are familiar with the displays the KRF has put on at the various KRA mini shows and the annual CLA show.

I would like to extend this KRF educational effort to include true students of the original gunmaking techniques who may not have had the opportunity to visit the various KRF displays to a more personal level. 

If you really have this passion in your blood but need to examine an original to get it right please contact me directly. I will do my best to put you in contact with a collector  or organization who supports your requirement to understand the old masters and their ways.

Regards,  HIB





Offline rich pierce

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Re: Contemporary Longrifles as Documentary Statements
« Reply #8 on: August 03, 2010, 05:12:05 AM »
The KRA had some great originals at Dixon's for us to look at and study.  Much appreciated!
Andover, Vermont

Offline smshea

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Re: Contemporary Longrifles as Documentary Statements
« Reply #9 on: August 03, 2010, 05:39:31 AM »
We really owe allot to collectors like yourself Henry that are willing to share! I am very grateful to all the collectors that let me examine there treasures. I hope to connect with you  on one of my trips to Buford. Without guys like you there would be allot more two dimensional  contemporary work out there.   

Offline Dr. Tim-Boone

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Re: Contemporary Longrifles as Documentary Statements
« Reply #10 on: August 03, 2010, 02:30:00 PM »
The great opportunity I have had already to just begin to learn from Henry and Wayne Elliot has been priceless! They got me to go to the Kentucky Rifle show at the Museum of the Applachians this year where I was immersed in Southern Mountain rifles and they have helped me find where original longrifles of all types can be found for study and even helped me be wise as i begin to look into collecting originals.  The KRA and its great members are simply invaluable!!  Thanks & look forward to seeing you all in Lexington.

HIB, I will be by to purchase my KRA book as soon as I get a break in the schedule!!

I would be remiss to not thank Scott as well. a couple of years ago as i was building a Peter Berry rifle, Scott made it possible for me to meet someone who allowed me to study and original Berry!!!  It was an incredible help!! thanks again Scott,
« Last Edit: August 03, 2010, 02:32:00 PM by DrTimBoone »
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Offline smshea

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Re: Contemporary Longrifles as Documentary Statements
« Reply #11 on: August 03, 2010, 04:03:04 PM »
Hey, I always say," friends don't let friends go without handling original kentuckys" or something like that. ;D

Offline heinz

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Re: Contemporary Longrifles as Documentary Statements
« Reply #12 on: August 03, 2010, 04:30:29 PM »
I enjoyed Mark's article and the photographs and found it very thought provoking.  Are we talking about documenting the article or documenting the process.  I am with those who hold the art of the longrifle is as much about the process as it is about the artifact.   I also recognize that others feel differently and their opinions are just as valid as mine, at least to them :-).
Few of us can take documentation of the process to anything as valid as the Williamsburg gunshop.  Most of us are going to be dealing with better lighting, better eyeglasses, and better steel tools than the 18th century gunsmith.    Few of us can develop an appreciation of the gunsmith apprentice relationship.  But we can grab pieces of that process documentation using period appropriatetools and techniques.  And we can pick and choose what part of the process we want to experience and how that will affect our documentation.  Steel and wrought iron work differently.  For myself I do not find that difference particularly important except in welding and rusting, but that is my judgement call or artistic decision and  does depart from exactly documenting the process.  I will use a drill press for lock bolts, barrel pins and occasionally butt plate screws.  I get my barrels made and inlet.  Other artists make other choices and it has an effect on their art.
Documenting the artifact itself should be done as close as possible.  An interesting question is whether the process should be adapted to making the most exact copy when it is the artifact itself you want to document.  If you are making a bench copy of a George Schroyer and really need to use the trusty dremel to get something just perfect, what is the correct artistictic decision?
I tend to say the exact copy is an end in itself, a historical documentation of a precise object, and the precision of the copy is the rule.  I think documenting the process chases after the soul of the original artist, however, Mark Silver points out that  is really is not that simple.  I am really looking forward to the next two installments.  
kind regards, heinz

Online Jim Kibler

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Re: Contemporary Longrifles as Documentary Statements
« Reply #13 on: August 03, 2010, 10:30:32 PM »
From my perspective, a builder, I see trying to copy an original gun as a learning experience.  Sort of like school or taking a class.  Not always pleasant, but something you can gain a great deal of knowledge from.  Furthermore, I don't think there is any better way to fully apppreciate a gun.  The process forces you to become aware of every minute detail. 

Offline Benedict

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Re: Contemporary Longrifles as Documentary Statements
« Reply #14 on: August 04, 2010, 12:23:45 AM »
From my perspective, a builder, I see trying to copy an original gun as a learning experience.  Sort of like school or taking a class.  Not always pleasant, but something you can gain a great deal of knowledge from.  Furthermore, I don't think there is any better way to fully apppreciate a gun.  The process forces you to become aware of every minute detail. 

Jim, you said it very well.  I agree whole heartedly.  All of the study of pictures and even the originals will not give you as complete an appreciation of a gun as to try to copy it.  I hope some day to have that opportunity.

Bruce

Offline B Shipman

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Re: Contemporary Longrifles as Documentary Statements
« Reply #15 on: August 04, 2010, 06:11:22 AM »
There's nothing workmanlike about making a bench or documentary copy of an original you have in hand. You're working in that man's style and trying to do what he's practiced at. Workmanlike is doing what you're used to and practiced at. By doing things his way you learn but there is nothing efficient about it unless  you adopt it and do it again and again.

Offline Dr. Tim-Boone

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Re: Contemporary Longrifles as Documentary Statements
« Reply #16 on: August 04, 2010, 07:08:15 PM »
Excellent point!!
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Offline Dr. Tim-Boone

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Re: Contemporary Longrifles as Documentary Statements
« Reply #17 on: August 04, 2010, 07:19:47 PM »
DANG! I still haven't received my copy...........This happened last time too..Recieved my copy here in GA two weeks after others up North....... Guess they forgot "Them that were last shall be first and them that were first shall be last"??? 
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Offline flintriflesmith

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Re: Contemporary Longrifles as Documentary Statements
« Reply #18 on: August 05, 2010, 01:04:32 AM »
There's nothing workmanlike about making a bench or documentary copy of an original you have in hand. You're working in that man's style and trying to do what he's practiced at. Workmanlike is doing what you're used to and practiced at. By doing things his way you learn but there is nothing efficient about it unless  you adopt it and do it again and again.

Bill,
I think Mark's point was that in order to make a rifle that is as much like the original in look and feel a modern builder has to learn to produce the same surface appearances, tool marks, etc. as those produced by the original maker who WAS proceeding in a "workmanlike manner." We have discussed this and in my opinion it is often harder for a 21st century builder to generate an authentic look to wood or metal than it is for him to make a spit-shined "modern" finish. Of course every time I write about this someone chimes in saying that I am encouraging "sloppy" work!
Gary
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Offline Dphariss

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Re: Contemporary Longrifles as Documentary Statements
« Reply #19 on: August 06, 2010, 06:17:19 AM »

There's nothing workmanlike about making a bench or documentary copy of an original you have in hand. You're working in that man's style and trying to do what he's practiced at. Workmanlike is doing what you're used to and practiced at. By doing things his way you learn but there is nothing efficient about it unless  you adopt it and do it again and again.
Bill,
I think Mark's point was that in order to make a rifle that is as much like the original in look and feel a modern builder has to learn to produce the same surface appearances, tool marks, etc. as those produced by the original maker who WAS proceeding in a "workmanlike manner." We have discussed this and in my opinion it is often harder for a 21st century builder to generate an authentic look to wood or metal than it is for him to make a spit-shined "modern" finish. Of course every time I write about this someone chimes in saying that I am encouraging "sloppy" work!
Gary

Some things to consider.
There  is a difference between a scraped finish done as it should be and likely was and something that appears to have been done by a bored former owner who (maybe) thought the stock was too shiny and took most of the varnish off with a knife..
Then we have to lock inletting thing, for example, lots of locks were repaired or replaced while the guns were in service. Many are replacements from the 20th century. Then we have wood rot. So how the inletting looks NOW may have nothing to do with what it was originally.
Just because the surviving rifle has a sloppy fitting lock is no indication it was made that way. Maybe the replacement was a near perfect fit but the bolster was such that the lock sets deeper now. Was the barrel shortened slightly at the breech and the result was that the lock is now deeper in the wood?

A scraped finish, done with reasonable care, then covered with one coat of oil varnish will actually look pretty shiny and level, the scraper marks will not show much if at all. They may actually show more after the finish is worn off, but this does not mean it looked like this when new or perhaps not even during the first owners lifetime.

One of the things that may have "sensitized" me was the German rifles at some art museum that were being used as examples of rough background in relief carving on original guns when they looked for the world like someone had cleaned mud off with a knife or nail point. Are we to believe that the metal was easier to smooth than the wood?
Considering the rest of the wood work there was no way that this rifle went out with this damage in just one place.
They had a guild system in Germany and I doubt anyone would produce work this bad and be able to hold his head up around other guild members. I can hear the snickering across the centuries.
But people sometimes want things to be what they want them to be so bad they will jump on some really ridiculous things as examples of something they want to see for what ever reason. Perhaps, it would seem, to make their work like the originals by finding something on an original that looks like something they are attempting to justify.
Someone saw a photo of a H House rifle and so wanted to find an iron mounted original he posted here that there was an original iron mounted rifle on the blog.

Nobody does perfect work. Its ALL got something the maker does not care for, that did not come out quite right or as planned. Sometimes its mostly between the makers ears, but often its real but not noticed by the casual observer, but the builder KNOWS where to look.

We know there were some pretty nice rifles made in Colonial times.
Does the side plate fit well and lock horrible? How come?
I am 1000 miles from the books right now on family business but look at the inletting on the PATCH BOXES. If someone can do a nice job on a PATCH BOX finial a lockplate is a piece of cake. So are we to believe that the guns with nicely fitting patchboxs and sloppy fitting locks came from the maker that way???

Dan
« Last Edit: August 06, 2010, 08:10:51 AM by ChuckBurrows »
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Re: Contemporary Longrifles as Documentary Statements
« Reply #20 on: August 06, 2010, 04:05:54 PM »
I think most of us begin by studying the originals if only by looking at pictures in a book. I did. That period of study is a big influence on our efforts to reproduce a gun from the time period. Where we go from that point is up to the individual.

Offline Dr. Tim-Boone

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Re: Contemporary Longrifles as Documentary Statements
« Reply #21 on: August 06, 2010, 06:49:40 PM »
I agree Michael, I need to be able to reproduce what an original builder did, then I can confidently deviate....its a part of the learning process...... Some folks just create from the first one..amazing to me!!
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Liberty is the only thing you cannot have unless you are willing to give it to others. – William Allen White

Learning is not compulsory...........neither is survival! - W. Edwards Deming