Author Topic: Cartridges  (Read 4862 times)

Offline bob in the woods

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Cartridges
« on: August 07, 2010, 07:10:34 PM »
With bear season opening Sept 1 here, I was practicing with my N.E fowler yesterday. I made up some cartridges, but changed the shape of my forming dowel to a cone shape, copying what I saw Daryl posting some time ago. What a difference!!  Tear off the end, put the cartridge in the muzzle and the powder drops
out while I'm drawing the ramrod. Then ram it down. 5 shots into 5 inches at 50 yds, 3 of those into 2 1/2 inches. I don't have a rear sight on this gun, and that's as good as I've ever done. I ran a patch down after the 5 since it was getting a tad fouled, but 5 shots was no problem. The cone shape made loading easier, & faster and the cartridges were just as accurate as my patched ball loads. This is definately what I'll be using for bear this year.  Thanks Daryl.

Daryl

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Re: Cartridges
« Reply #1 on: August 07, 2010, 07:47:47 PM »
You are most welcome, Bob.

 As well, they remove the cold weather/ too-stiff patch lube problem. That is the reason I worked with them back in the 80's/early 90's for my .69 cal. with .012" rifling.  My accuracy and point of impact was the same as patched round balls and in the rifle, I could fire up to 10 shots without accuracy diminishing.  A friend with a deep groove .75(.025" rounded rifling), is limited to 3 accurate shots before fouling rears it's ugly head.

Offline trentOH

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Re: Cartridges
« Reply #2 on: August 07, 2010, 09:55:50 PM »
How much taper is there on the dowel? And what type of paper do you prefer?   I like this idea quite a bit.  My Bess will thank you also.

Daryl

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Re: Cartridges
« Reply #3 on: August 07, 2010, 10:32:30 PM »
I merely used about 20 pound printer paper - 24pound or 28 pound would work well too, if you needed to take up a bit more windage - or perhaps thinner than 20 pound for less windage.

I liked the .006" under ball with 2 wraps of 20 pound as it engraved the rifling enough it took effort get it even with the muzzle(choked up rod with 'some' pressure). The paper jags up between the powder and the ball and effectively seals it, just as a patch would. The tighter the fit, I expect the better the accuracy - to the point of fouling screwing up being able to fire multiple shots without having to wipe.

Incidently, when I'd fired 10 shots of ctgs. from my rifle with the first being a patched round ball (11 total), I'd load 82gr. (3 drams) with a slobberly wet patch and ball and fire that off, which would effectively clean the bore allowing another 10 ctgs. to be fired before a cleaning shot (or wiping) was needed.

I haven't tried it, but 3 wraps with a normal underized smoothbore ball might be necessary.  From the rifle and from the brief ctg. test in the India pattern Bess I had briefly, snug fitting ctgs. get blown out the barrel in pieces or in one piece without catching fire.  Repeat - NO BURNING ctgs.  If they catch fire or smolder, the combination is not sealing and needs to be increased in size, either by going to a larger ball or thicker paper wrapping.

Do not do, as I saw a while ago on TV - the "Expert" showing the bikers to bite off the paper, pour in the powder, separte the ball from the paper, drop the ball in, then ram the paper on top of the ball.

Bob has the proper loading sequence. Bite of the narrow end of the paper- stick the tapered ctg. into the muzzle - the expanded end will stop at the ball. Pull the rod out then ram it down, paper and all. Prime(or cap) and fire.

The taper should be sufficient to give you a 1/4" 'folded or glued 'end' that gets bitten off, the 'rest' of the ctg. being only large enough to hold the ball paper (folded or glued over top) and powder charge.

My .69 plug was about 3" long, tapered to almost a point.  The plug for the .75 Bess was shorter due to less powder being used in it.

I would cut a sheet of paper into 4 pieces, then roll them up, gluing on the last edge with paper glue to hold them in a tube.  I'd fold over the pointed end to a 1/4" wide 'butt' then glue that to the side of the tube after cutting off the excess. I would pour the measured powder charge into the tube, then drop in a ball, sprue up. No sprue balls are easier, ie; tanner moulds with sprue filed off.  I would then fold the paper over the top of the ball, gluing paper to paper, not to the ball itself.  Tying with string or thread can also be used.

Bruse S. and Dan P. have also used these in their rifles with excellent results.  I suspect .54 or .58 is about the smallest calibre that will work wel in a rifle (& with only 2F), due to the pressure being too high in slaler calibres for the paper to maintain a seal without catching fire with heavy loads.

Nitrated ctgs. is NOT recommended by me. They only sometimes shoot accurately and only sometimes actually burn up. They give you a VERY large chance to leave burning paper in the bore. You don't want that. A friend of mine tried nitrated paper ctg. in his Sharps .54 and found unburnt ctg. tubes or pieces in the chamber or bore after almost every shot. He stopped using them on the first day of testing.  He could shove a finger into the chamber area and extract a tube of scorched paper.  I saw this - kinda scary to think of loading another ctg. over or on top of a burning piece of paper.  So- real paper only, they thicker the better- probably.

Offline bob in the woods

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Re: Cartridges
« Reply #4 on: August 08, 2010, 12:11:38 AM »
These cartridges are dead simple to use. They are really shaped just like a cone. My 10 bore lets the ball end of the cartridge into the bore almost 1/2 of the ball. Without a short starter, I can push it down with the ramrod. 3 wraps is about what I used. There was no burning paper, and the ball is actually in the paper.
Reloading was very very fast.  As I said, accuracy was as good as I've ever gotten with a lubed cloth patch.My forming dowel was shaped on my belt sander.

Offline Kermit

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Re: Cartridges
« Reply #5 on: August 09, 2010, 06:10:03 AM »
Any photos to help the neophytes visualize this?
"Anything worth doing is worth doing slowly." Mae West

Daryl

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Re: Cartridges
« Reply #6 on: August 09, 2010, 05:19:54 PM »
These are the ctg. I tested in the .75 India Pattern Bess and are loaded with around 100gr. powder only, therefore are quite short.


Alternate way of securing the ctg.


Note with this method, the ctg. is loaded backwards compared to the tapered ctg.  I switched from 'square' ctgs. due to the powder loss when tearing off the powder end. The tapered end fits the plam better and there is little or no powder loss.

These two pics. show alternative ways of securing the ctg. other than gluing. I found gluing fast and efficient.  Glued ctg. have been carried in my parka pocket all season, without damage.

« Last Edit: August 09, 2010, 05:23:02 PM by Daryl »

mglamb

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Re: Cartridges
« Reply #7 on: August 09, 2010, 05:30:38 PM »
I use glued cartridges with a folded tail like in the bottom illustration with good results.