Hooked Breech

[Jim Cook]

This is the first of many stupid questions from an amateur. I just received a beautiful English Fowler kit from Track of the Wolf. It has a hooked breech and the plug has been installed.
The first picture shows the tang placed on the hook of the breech plug.
http://i778.photobucket.com/albums/yy69/jimcook2/Breech.gif
http://i778.photobucket.com/albums/yy69/jimcook2/Breech2_edited-1.gif

 Note that the top of the tang is about .080” above the top flat of the barrel. The both sides are about even with the barrel.

If I draw file the top of the tang to match the barrel it will result in a significant amount of material removed from the tang. Should I be filing the mounting surface of the hook on the breech plug until the tang is centered on the barrel and then draw file all the flats on the barrel to match the flats on the tang?

[Roger B]

The problem is with the fit of the hook with your tang.  Look for interference points at the top of both the hook & tang & releive them until the tang moves downward into place.  Notice that the side flats of your tang don't line up with the flats of your barrel.  This is why.
Roger B. 

[Jim Cook]

Thanks for your answer Roger.
What you said made sense. I started to file the hook and I just wanted to make sure I was headed in the right direction. Thanks again.

The problem is with the fit of the hook with your tang.  Look for interference points at the top of both the hook & tang & releive them until the tang moves downward into place.  Notice that the side flats of your tang don't line up with the flats of your barrel.  This is why.
Roger B. 

[Mike Brooks]

I'd suggest looking at some originals before you file your tang and barrel all to the same level.

[California Kid]

Listen to Mike, you need to look at some original guns with a hooked breech. Most all of them  stand proud of the barrel. Its made that way on purpose. You'll be sorry later if you file it down flush or lower the hook.

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

I have noticed that some are higher and some are flush on the originals I have looked at. The ones that have the cast in groove on top seem to stand a little taller....but shouldn't the side and bottom fit anyway....especially if there is a pin at the bottom.....??

[James Rogers]

Ditto Brooks and the Kid.
The bottom of the sighting recess is usually close to flush with the top of the barrel and the breech has contours at barrel and stock. The height helps add to that nice wedge architecture.  

Check this random one out. You should be able to get the pics quite large without distortion.....  http://www.peterfiner.com/Search/ItemDetails.asp?Page=Item&ItemID=1020

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

That is a nice standing breech design!!

[rich pierce]

what a gun!

[Dave B]

Jim,
Here is a pic of an original English fowler and you can see the the extra height of the top flat of the breach. I would be careful not to take it down but to remove the squareness of the transition area.

[California Kid]

HAH! Now all the good fowler pics come out of the closet!

[Dave B]

Here is another view of the same and a additional example of why you should leave it high at the tang top.











You can see that a good percentage of English as well as some American fowlers had the tang hump or slightly oversized standing breach.

[Jim Cook]

Thank you everyone.
The pictures helped a lot.
I will lower the tang until the bottom of the sighting recess is flush with the top of the barrel. After thinking what everyone has said it seems to make sense. The sighting recess is there so that you can sight along the top of the barrel without the slight hump of the tang assembly obstructing the view.

Ditto Brooks and the Kid.
The bottom of the sighting recess is usually close to flush with the top of the barrel and the breech has contours at barrel and stock. The height helps add to that nice wedge architecture.  

Check this random one out. You should be able to get the pics quite large without distortion.....  http://www.peterfiner.com/Search/ItemDetails.asp?Page=Item&ItemID=1020

[smart dog]

Jim,
Mike, James, and others are correct about the tang having a pronounced hump for a sighting groove, however, that style seems to be popular on guns made during the middle of the 18th century to about 1770-75.  After 1780 many tangs were made flush with the top of the barrels.  It really depends on what style and period gun you are building.  It also pays to do research before diving in.

dave

[James Rogers]

Jim,
Mike, James, and others are correct about the tang having a pronounced hump for a sighting groove, however, that style seems to be popular on guns made during the middle of the 18th century to about 1770-75.  After 1780 many tangs were made flush with the top of the barrels.  It really depends on what style and period gun you are building.  It also pays to do research before diving in.

dave

Dave, the OP is using a standing breech with a sighting groove in it.

[smart dog]

Hi James,
I understand that, but I built a fowler a few years ago with that same tang from TOW with a Durs Egg lock.  After doing a bit more research I realized the sighting hump probably was not as appropriate on a late 18th century fowler having a late 18th century lock like the Egg.  Consequently, I ground off the hump and fitted the tang very nicely to the barrel.  Anyway, if the TOW kit has a round-faced mid-18th century lock then a hump is entirely correct.

Jim C. - Regardless of how you handle the hump, you want the hook to be snug in the tang.  Position the tang on the breech hook so that the hook snugs it against the barrel properly, soft solder it in place, and then file the flats flush with the barrel except for the top flat if you want the sighting groove.  In that case, file the excess metal down to create the forward curve of the hump such that it merges with the barrel flat nicely. 

dave

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

...and check out this image of Andrew Verner's work.  Here I thought he'd made a mistake!!

[James Rogers]

My mistake Dave,

I thought he had bought the complete TOW English Fowling gun kit which I assumed would have been time appropriate for the hump. The pre-carve probably does not have enough meat there to get the right look anyway does it?
I know when building from the stick you can hump a standard tang for the wedge effect of that mid 18th century style also.

I know the late 18th century tangs you speak of found English guns of high quality. Some even have no sighting groove at all just like the standing breech they were using in sporting rifles.  I did see pics of an Egg circa 1800 with a sighting groove about as high as the Verner Taylor posted which is still above the barrel plane but nothing like some of the earlier camel humps.