question on fliers

[colt]

I am kinda new on here and I have been trying to work up a load for a colerain "C" 42" in .54 cal. with a linen patch .015 and a .520 ball with totw mink oil. My first shot in a clean bore always goes way off. In the picture of my target it is just outside the middle of the paper on the right. the next 3 shots were all black. If i swab I get fliers. If i dont swab they come back to black. Does this mean my patch or ball is to small to grip good in a clean bore? Thanks... I have learned alot on here listening to you guys.

I tried to post a pic but dont know how

[bob in the woods]

Yes.  I have that same barrel. Smallest ball I shoot is a .530 with a denim patch . Probably around .020
certainly .018 at the minimum.  Usually I shoot a .535 ball. 

[colt]

Bob, I have tried a .530 ball and it fits hammer it in  tight with a .010 patch. I just cant seem to get the same ball - patch combo I hear about on here. I havent tried but I dont think I could get a .535 ball into the gun

[bob in the woods]

Wow!!  Can't get a .535 into the gun??? Once you got the .530 in,did it slide downOK or was it a struggle all the way? I don't get it. With that same barrel, I load the .530 without a short starter. I did the "emery on the thumb" treatment to the crown, but that is all.

[g.pennell]

I have the same barrel also, and have just started working up a load as well.  I can load a .530 ball with an .018 ticking patch without a short starter too...I just seat the ball with the butt of my patch knife, and drive it home with the ramrod.  It's pretty snug, but not a struggle to load.  I haven't polished the crown yet...but will probably cone it when I get around to making a tool.

Greg

[Roger B]

Does the gun shoot a tight group in the black after the first flier, or does the group continue to wander in one direction with further firing?  If you have a tight group after the first shot, then you have one of those barrels that just likes to shoot somewhat dirty.  If the group wanders in one direction as the barrel warms up, then you either have a bow in the bore (doubt) or the barrel is bound in the stock.  When you stop to clean, the barrel cools off & goes back into "flier mode".  Perhaps a pin lug that won't allow a little expansion as the barrel gets warmer.  Check your patches after your first shot & compare them to the ones thereafter.  Major differences in fired patch condition might give you a clue that sharp rifling is in play.  The first thing I do with almost any new barrel these days is to wrap a scotchbrite pad on the ramrod & polish the bore.  No compounds or chemicals, just several iterations of scotchbrite.  You can't hurt the bore & you would be amazed at how many ills it will cure.  I can't comment on how tight your bore is compared to others as I have never had a Colerain barrel.  Try polishing & see if that helps.  The basis of load development & problem solving is being methodical.  Change only one variable at a time, shoot a group, & proceed accordingly.
Roger B.

[Daryl]

Witha .015" patch and a .520" to .535" ball, it will shoot dirty, that's for sure.

 A good tight load will shoot very close, dirty or clean and there is very little difference ahead of the ball between a clean barrel and one that's been fired 40 times without wiping.

I'd most certainly do as Bob noted - emery and the thumb - smooth off those sharp edges and corners so the patch and ball can swage into the lands easily. Use pure lead and a thicker patch - .020" at least, with a .530" ball.  .022" is even better.  Yes- you'll need a starter with about a 4" to 5" shaft.

Here are some starters. They have a little nub on them,w ith a cupped end. The cup is placed on the ball, and the hand smacks the other side, putting the bal about 1/4" below the muzzle. The long shaft also has a brass end with a concave surface.  This is then placed on the ball and the big knob is struck with the palm, sending the patched ball down 4" to 6". the length of the shaft.



Smoothing the machine cut crown. Rotate the hand and rotate barrel every now and then to keep the polishing of the crown even aroudn the muzzle.  It only takes about 15 min. to do.  I even re-cut a guy's factory TC with a pocket knife and old piece of emery from my shooting bag. he was having difficulty loading a .490" ball and .022" denim patch - afterwards, he had no trouble after the crown was repaired and good technique shown to him. That was back in the 70's.

[colt]

Thanks - I am going to try again today. I will let you know how I make out. One thing, I wanted a patch - ball combo I could thumb start. The .530 will only do that with a very thin patch mic'd at .008 bed sheet thin stuff,even then its hard to start and takes alot of force in a well greased barrel to set on the charge. The patch doesnt hold up either. The very end of the barrell appears to be coned. I have read on here that some guys barrels for the same caliber are sometimes different sizes, take different patch ball combo's to work. I wonder if thats the problem.   I have worked up loads for several percussion .45's and .50's and never ran into this. This is my first flinter and outside of this little issue I wonder how I ever shot anything else!

[Daryl]

my, my  .008" is hard to load, A.  That's unfortunate.  We use short starters as we demand acurate shooting that does not require wiping during a day's shooting, which can run up to 85 shots.

.008" to .015" patches makes my .030" patches look a bit thick, however, they aren't that hard to load for the first shot, or the 100th, without wiping - ever.  Of course, the balls I use are quite a bit smaller than the bore - .006" smaller to be exact and the rifling's quite deep - .012" by measurement.

That gives me .015" compression all the way around the ball in the bottom of the grooves. Yes - pure lead is manditiory for tight loading combinations.  I use the same patch with a WW ball that is .015" smaller than the bore- without trouble loading, and very close to the same accuracy - 1 hole about 1 1/2" across at 50 yards for 5 consecutive shots. the smalelr WW ball gives .0105 compression around the ball and eso not cut the patch- the crown's radiused nicley and quite smooth. The picture shows some rod wear at 11 o'clock. So far, it doesn't change the accuracy, even at 200 yards. 1 1/4" x 3 1/2" for 6 shots. shot from a rest with a sand bag for support.

A tight fitting combo goes down the bore the same every shot - we use 3/8" hickory rods on a lot of our guns - without trouble.  I shoot a .311" ball in my .32 cal rifle, with a .0215" or .0225" denim or ticking patch - loading is 2 fingers (using mink oil or neetsfoot oil) after the ball is down 4" with a short starter.  I don't have to wipe it at any time as it doesn't get dirty - at all. I use a short starter to get the ball started, but bet I could choke up on the rod and push the ball and patch into the bore without it.  My thumb isn't hard enough to do that by itself.  The crown on the barrel is as such. It isn't coned, just smoothly radiused.
The ram rod used is 5/16" in diameter and is a close fit to the bore.

[colt]

Daryl, I wish I could load pic's on here...my muzzle looks the same as yours, slight eased edge or radius. If I follow your formula and my ball is .006 smaller than my bore that would be .540 minus .006= .534 correct? I'm thinking I should mic. the bore of my barrel.

[Daryl]

Your bore will be as close to .540 as @!*% is to swearing with that factory barrel. I wouldn't worry about a thou. here or there.  Normally, guys use .530" or .535" balls as those are common ball sizes in their .54's.  Some time ago, back in the late 70's or early 80's, 54 cal barrels were available that actually mic'd .530" and therefore the Lyman .526" ball mould was used in them.

Our 'standard' patch, that shoots perfectly well in every single gun we've ever tested it in and that's probably over 100 different barrels, is 10oz. denim, which mic's .0205" to .0225" depending on the manufacturer.  It works well in square rifling with .530" and rounded rilfing (deeper) with .535" balls.  It is easy to load in either of these barrels and with spit (actually spit - not vapour) a water based lube like we use in the winter, you can shoot all day without needing to wipe the bore and accuracy will not change over the day's shooting. Some guns don't shoot as cleanly with the greases, some do. That can depend a lot on the powder charge.  If you were shooting 120gr. in the .54, it could foul  more than a 90gr. charge.

12oz. denim is about the heaviest I've seen - runs .030" with standard dial calipers and .025" in my mic if I ratchet it normally briiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit.  that's the material I use in the .69 rifle with the .684" ball.  Some denims are marked by weight- ie: ounces, while others aren't.  I always take my mic with me when buying material for patches.  After getting it home, I wash it twice - 1st time with soap, then run it through the wash cycle again without soap, then mic it again.  Denim usually stays about the same, but I've had it reduce in thickness with the sizing removed, and I've had it grow as well.  I think this is a result of different makeres of the cloth.

[YORKTOWNE54]

Levi jeans must be 12 ounce denim if thats the case. My old pair I cut up measured .030 and fit that 535 rb snug as a bug in a rug. Was too hard to load in the green mtn., goin back to the ticking.

[A.Merrill]

    Take out your touch hole liner, shine a l.e.d. light in it, it should shine like a mirror.    If it doesn't polish it. Go to the BUILD FORM an look up RUSTY BORE. Follow the procedure I explained. It came out like a mirror and the guy I did it for said it shoots better than ever.  GOOD LUCK   AL

[colt]

I havent been able to shoot yet but I did use the green scotch bright pad and 100 or so passes.  :'(Man, do THAT long enough and you wont need no short starter. have arms like popeye    that polished it up really good. Looking  with a bore light it is like a mirror. cant wait to shoot it to see whats up.