Soliciting Opinions on the market for a J Bartlett & Bros Binghamton NY Perc gun

[TNVolunteerEngineer]

I have a ML rifle on consignment for a customer and I have placed it on Gunbroker.   It hasn't gotten much interest there.  The price was set by the owner.  I don't have a good understanding of the ML market.  Is the gun priced too high?  What is the current market for a gun like this?

Here is the link:  http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=256862771

[nord]

You have a late chunk rifle as far as I can tell. The main reason it shows so little use is that this type of gun was generally used for semi-formal target shooting which was a popular sport in the latter half of the 1800's. Thus it was well cared for and likely little used compared to a working rifle of the time.

Quality is excellent as indicated by the photos. This I would expect from a NY gun made for sport shooting.

Now the bad news:

While a very nice and well preserved piece, this is a late gun adorned and equipped with commercial components. By virtue of it's general style and the fact that you might say the gun was assembled rather than built, the value will be mainly as a shooter as it lacks any great degree of artistic merit.

The price listed is something I won't discuss as it's improper to opine on the value of  property belonging to another unless I happened to be interested in the piece. Let me just say that in my opinion this rifle doesn't rise to the value of even a plain PA rifle in somewhat similar condition with handmade furniture and minimal adornment.

[T*O*F]

I must disagree.  This gun is totally English in its styling, as well as all its components.  It may well even be an imported rifle that Bartlett & Bros stamped their info on the barrel.  The buttplate and trigger guard, with the pineapple finial are English, as is the breeching/lock combination which was a Rigby design.  Most English sporting rifles have sling swivels and they are not uncommon, nor is the checkering on the wrist.  Contrary to being an assembled gun, anyone who has built an English rifle knows the architecture is not easily attained.  Likewise, these rifles were unadorned as the English style had moved to functionality by this time.  Without knowing anything about B&B, it could be a later gun....perhaps in the 70's.

In the closeup of the rear sling swivel, there is a twig inclusion, extending in both directions, which has been filled.  This same inclusion is evident in the buttplate picture showing the it extends clear around the stock.  How the flaw was repaired could indicate if it is original to the gun, or filled with epoxy or other filler at a later date.

Superfluous additions in the description detract from the gun.  If something is not known, it should not be added.  This includes the "rarity" of the checkering and swivels, and the suggestion that it be rebored.  Regardless, it is fairly priced.

[SPG]

Gentlemen,

I would agree with T*O*F*. This is definitely not a "chunk" rifle or even a typical NE turkey rifle.

I hope whoever buys it leaves it alone rather than "reboring"...this is not something that the gun needs to be subjected to, especially since by description it has a great bore.

Steve

[Dphariss]

The rifle appears to be an American made version of the English hunting rifle of the 1840s-60s.
It certainly is not chunk or match rifle.
It could even be a British import with American markings. Would need to know if it had proof marks or not and if its stocked in American or European walnut. But the English would have made a rifle of this caliber lighter in weight. But if the rifle came from England with a 58 or 60 caliber barrel it would have been lighter in weight.
It may have been rebarreled to a smaller bore at some time.

Sling swivels or checkering on a rifle of this sort is not unusual.
Why anyone would want to rebore the rifle is beyond me.
This borders on criminal since it destroys the original bore which is a valuable artifact of its own to people who study old firearms deeper than the external appearance.
Dan

[nord]

Gentleman,

What appears to be a "perch belly" shouts to me of a late NY rifle. The bulkiness and obvious lack of use tell me that this rifle was not used for hunting. Otherwise I'd opine an Adirondack rifle. Thus I'll stick to the opinion that this gun was used mostly for informal shoots and not really intended for serious use afield. (I never intended to mean a target rifle.)

As to the hardware used I wouldn't argue English. Not at all unusual. As I said, the photo of the stock seems to indicate a domestic late NY gun. The rest of the hardware could have easily been obtained from an importer.

In any case... A late gun devoid of the artistic merit we so enjoy on our PA rifles. While still a very nice piece it falls into a much different category than earlier pieces that combined high art with function.

Obviously just my opinion.

[Tanselman]

This appears to be made by J. Bartlett & Brs.; it has details similar to other "more formal" guns from their shop. Perhaps a reason for light interest is the finish on this gun. Contrary to the description, I believe the gun has been significantly worked on, both stock and mountings, altering the original finish. It is particularly noticeable on the iron mountings. They show evidence of having been poorly maintained, resulting in light pitting and loss of original color. The "restorer" has carefully cleaned all mounts down almost to the metal, making it look smoother, but the light pitting is still visible and the "raw" color is not the desired finish. It is more easily seen on the ramrod pipes where the rusty lower surfaces were more difficult to get at and clean, making the difference between old and new surface more visible. With high grade sporting rifles, such as this English style rifle, most knowledgeable collectors want great condition and original finish. Eastern sporting rifles should, in general, be in better condition than Kentucky-style rifles used on the rough & tumble frontier or carried west. Somewhere along the line I think this gun was poorly cared for, and although nicely cleaned up, it has lost much original finish, and with it some collector interest. Shelby Gallien

[nord]

Shelby,

After reviewing your comments and the photos I tend to agree. Maybe not poorly maintained as some would think of it, but certain items appear to have been overlooked in years past.

And I must totally agree about the cleanup after reviewing the photos.  Whomever did it removed a good portion of the value right along with the patina of years. Really a shame!

All the same a NY gun typical of the late percussion period.

[TNVolunteerEngineer]

Thank you all for your very informed replies.   The owner was a PA gunsmith for many years and always held onto this gun with the intention of reboring it.   It appears it was fortunate that he never did change it.  We'll keep the auction going. Someone will find it to be just what they are looking for.

[JCKelly]

Joseph Bartlett born about 1804, gunshop closed (or was taken over by a Charles Stuart) late 1855 or early 1856. So said the late & greatly respected Holman J. Swinney in his 5 volume set, The New York State Firearms Trade. Devotes about 11 pages to the Bartlett Brothers in VOLUME 1, A - C. Your rifle looks at least as good as any that Mr. Swinney found for his book.

Yeah, I'd say it was fairly priced but so would I say about a fine 1884 Cadet rifle I have had on Gunbroker for some time, at a decreased price every month or so.

Methinks being in an honest-to-gosh depression, where the type of guy who likes old guns now has no job,  has made it just a tad more difficult to sell normal antique guns. Look at all the guns on Gunbroker with 0 bids, about to close. Sad to say I think you will have to drop the price to sell the rifle.

I like it but do not wish to own it. The Western New York gun collectors might be interested. Up to you to find them.

[JV Puleo]

I suspect its a B'ham (England) made rifle retailed here but it could easily be American made... at this late date I'd take the barrel out and see what it has for proofs. I'd expect a British made rifle to have late B'ham proofs under the barrel. ... a little unusual to most people's mind but I've seen it before. I have a fine swamped octagonal rifle barrel of the same period with "Lane & Read Boston" engraved on the top flat and B'ham proofs underneath. If the barrel is marked "E. Remington" on the bottom (again common with NY and other eastern rifles) then its an American assembled piece. If there are no marks I'd say its likely American - though that only means it was assembled here. The lock is almost certainly English and the wood makes no difference at all. The English imported millions of board feet of American timber all through the 19th century. If it is English made it was made for export... English domestic and colonial market rifles are virtually always of larger bore while calibers from .38 to .42 were extremely popular in New England and New York in the 1840-1880 period.

But, it doesn't make much difference where it was made. Eastern half-stock percussion sporting rifles have never had much of a following among collectors. There are lots of them and if you want to collect them, they can be found in near new condition. Personally, I like them. My "knock around" shooter is a .40 caliber half stock NE rifle ca. 1835. That said, my opinion is that the price is about double what could reasonably be expected from the small number of people that like these. Why anyone would want to rebore it (providing it has a reasonably usable bore) escapes me.

[Mike Brooks]

Looks like a run of the mill english sporting rifle to me.  The price is right for about 5 years ago, it's difficult to sell anything these days unless there is something outstanding.

[TNVolunteerEngineer]

I took the gun apart.  No proof marks at all, so it must be NY made.  The barrel is a constant 1.100 inches across the flats. The barrel weighss over 7 pounds by itself.  I occurred to me that I might buy the rifle myself if I could have a lighter barrel made by making the barrel round past the fore end and choosing a larger bore, probably 50 caliber.   It would have to have a deeper rib to carry the ramrod in its current channel.   Can anyone recommend a gunsmith who could make me a spare barrel?

[JCKelly]

That rifle has been relisted, new number is
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=260022238

It is a collector's item. Whether J. Bartlett & Bros made it themselves or imported it from England I wouldn't know, not being expert in New York rifles.

I would suggest leaving it to one of the New York state collectors & getting an entirely new rifle to shoot.

[Two Bears]

I would love to own that rifle. Very nice!

[JTR]

No sale at $1000.

Just offhand, at $1000, I'd think you're asking about twice the value of the rifle, in this condition.

All the finish/rust wired brushed off just leaving the pitting didn't help, and actually hurt the value. Oiling the original rust would have given a better look.

Keep trying, lower the price, and sooner or later someone will probably buy it.

John

[TNVolunteerEngineer]

   This rifle  appears to be a good copy of an English sporting rifle made by an American maker.  I have begun to appreciate the quality of the rifle in terms of its technical features.  I may keep the  gun for myself and just put it on display. I have many other reproduction guns for shooting.  I have three other original ML firearms from different periods and  this one would round out the collection nicely.

After the commet was made about the rifle being excessively cleaned, I looked it over carefully.  I believe that the metal has been cleaned.   It would not be that bright at this stage in its life otherwise.  What would you folks suggest I do to have it restored to an original type finish?  I assume that it would have been browned originally.  Would this be a fine-grained browning rather than the coarse finish on earlier guns?  Or could it have been rust blued?  I think that I would not have anything done to the lock, but the barrel, trigger guard, patchbox and buttplate should be refinished.  Can someone suggest a gunsmith to give the metal finish an appropriate restoration?