Author Topic: Dreppard/Ketland lock?  (Read 6620 times)

Sean

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Dreppard/Ketland lock?
« on: August 07, 2010, 10:37:59 PM »
So this lock was posted in a pic on the Contemporary Makers Blog a while back.  Its off an original Dickert Rifle with a bill of sale dated to 1809 that was on the table at the TN rifle show this year.  The lock is marked Dreppard, but has the characteristic leaf pattern generally seen on Ketland imports.  I've always wondered how many locks the Dreppards actually made VS imported.  This one really looks Ketland to me.  Is there any info out there on the Dreppards that actually suggests they were lock importers AND locksmiths?

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_vb_Yo_ELC48/S9SuDzR2DwI/AAAAAAAAbgQ/7vfRdkCnhoo/s1600/DSCN3523.jpg

Sean

Offline JV Puleo

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Re: Dreppard/Ketland lock?
« Reply #1 on: August 08, 2010, 03:48:25 AM »
Its a perfectly conventional, good quality English made lock. The "flower" has nothing to do with the Ketlands, despite constant references to it, since virtually all of the British locks were made in three or four Black Country lockmaking towns surrounding Birmingham. I think it is reasonable to consider it a decorative feature of Black Country locks and the Ketlands probably imported the overwhelming majority of these. Gun lock making was an extremely well organized specialty trade - so much so that no one who assembled guns would have bothered to even try making one.
For that matter, practically all of the so-called "London-made" locks came from there. It is a matter of pure economics. The lockmakers operated so efficiently that it was pointless to compete with them.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2010, 05:10:33 AM by JV Puleo »

Sean

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Re: Dreppard/Ketland lock?
« Reply #2 on: August 08, 2010, 06:54:02 AM »
Joe,

I'm thinking along the same lines as you here, but I'm trying to square all the references that talk of the Dreppard/Drepperts as gunsmiths and locksmiths.  Most of those references seem to be based on the assumption that the name stamped on the lock is the maker.  I suspect they were importers as much as gunsmiths, but I'd love to see some documentation on that. 

Sean

Offline JV Puleo

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Re: Dreppard/Ketland lock?
« Reply #3 on: August 08, 2010, 06:04:30 PM »
I think there are three possibilities.

In the first case, the lock could have been imported in a finished state and engraved here. This would have required Dreppard to have annealed the lockplate, engraved it and re-hardened it since, as far as we can tell, lockplates were hardened before they were shipped. Certainly this would not have been beyond the abilities of most American gunmakers but they ran the risk of having the lockplate warp in the hardening process.

At a much later date, by the middle of the 19th century, we know it was commonplace for American gunmakers to order batches of locks with their names on them but I've no evidence it was done this early.

A third possibility also exists. We know this was done later, towards the middle of the century. A Birmingham lock filer / finisher emigrated, thinking he'd easily find work in the Philadelphia area. He discovered that, with no local lock making industry, there simply was no work for someone in his very specialized trade. He eventually imported locks in the "soft" state and finished them himself, claiming to be the maker. In the context of 19th century business that was only a slight exaggeration. The 19th century had no "truth in advertising" laws so we cannot always take the statements made in advertisements at face value, though even when questionable they offer important clues to what was going on. By 1810-1813 exactly the same thing was going on in the London trade, with many gunmakers simply ordering in guns that they finished themselves or simply put their names on. Around 1810, when the London gunmakers pushed for a law requiring that all guns be marked with their city of origin, the B'ham makers protested that most of the "London" barrels and locks were made in B'ham! Even the London trade had given up to the economic power of B'ham.

I have noticed that both Pennsylvania and New England rifles almost always have a much better grade of imported lock. This is certainly rational given they were more expensive guns to begin with and, while changing a lock was possible, it was never as easy as just plugging in another identical one. I also suspect that the customers for rifles were much more likely to be demanding of quality. In a system where every adult male had to have a militia musket there had to have been a large number of men who simply wanted the cheapest gun that would "pass muster." I see no reason to apply that reasoning to rifles, nearly all of which must have gone to men who were actually interested in firearms and wanted the best they could afford.

As to the question of making high quality locks in America... lockmaking was extremely well organized and sophisticated. Even the lockmakers we have the names of, and there are quite a few of them, were owners and organizers utilizing the services of "cock forgers," "lockplate forgers," "pin [screw] makers." etc. Something as simple as drilling and threading the blind hole in the frizzen spring of the lock you illustrate probably required several specialized jigs and fixtures and perhaps a man whose full time job was nothing but threaded blind holes. This is a degree of specialization that wasn't possible in America until at least the 1840s. One of the most important factors in the American creation of modern mass production was the dearth of highly skilled workmen, a commodity Birmingham had an almost limitless supply of. Also, when we do encounter undeniably "American Made" locks like those on Bedford County rifles, they look quite different from the imported variety.

oakridge

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Re: Dreppard/Ketland lock?
« Reply #4 on: August 09, 2010, 01:09:20 AM »
Hopefully not straying too far off topic, what would be the purpose of marking locks "London Warranted"? Did their use by American gunmakers indicate quality to the purchasers? Were these made by a particular company, and, were they even made in London?

Offline JV Puleo

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Re: Dreppard/Ketland lock?
« Reply #5 on: August 09, 2010, 01:49:36 AM »
It was advertising hype. I doubt any of them were really "warranted" in that you could send them back for repair or replacement. The use of "London" was the same... London had the reputation of being the home of the best English gunmakers - which it probably was. That the locks and guns weren't made there was unimportant, it was the impression that counted to the sellers. I suspect that even in England, outside the trade, its operation was not well understood. Of course, the term was so overused that it eventually became meaningless, at least to those interested enough to investigate, but it worked then and still works today. I regularly hear questions from neophyte collectors and shooters confused by cheap Belgian-made percussion doubles, complete with proper Belgian proofs, that are engraved "London." I think of it as being similar to the use of the word "guality" today. We hear "quality time" or a "quality job." Its totally meaningless - are we talking about good quality, bad quality, middle-of-the-road quality? The word is used constantly and has no significance at all.

It is very easy for enthusiasts like us to badly under estimate the level of ignorance common among the run of the mill gun buyer. That level of ignorance is common now, in an era when no one actually has to buy a gun (as for militia duty) and must have been even more common when communication was so much more difficult and a significant number of guns were sold to people who had no particular interest in shooting. Also, I very much doubt that anyone in the trade was anxious to explain how things worked. An honest explanation certainly wasn't in the interest of the importer or the real London gunmakers who were using B'ham-made components.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2010, 02:18:53 AM by JV Puleo »

Sean

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Re: Dreppard/Ketland lock?
« Reply #6 on: August 09, 2010, 07:32:19 AM »
Joe,

Good info as always.  I think we started tis discussion on an other board some time ago.

Given the number and diversity of Dreppard/Dreppert marked locks out there, I would guess your option #2 is the most likely.  It would be great to see some documentation on that if you ever run on to it.

Thanks,

Sean

jwh1947

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Re: Dreppard/Ketland lock?
« Reply #7 on: August 17, 2010, 07:36:10 AM »
I would ask a sensitive question of those who have handled many  Lancaster guns and dozens of Dreppard locks.  How many of you have seen Dreppard locks with hand stamps for each letter as this one is obviously done?  I, for one,  have seen none.

Offline Dale Campbell

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Re: Dreppard/Ketland lock?
« Reply #8 on: August 17, 2010, 02:27:44 PM »
The letters do look like they were engraved rather than stamped.  There are two of each letter, and none seem to match like they would if stamped.  All are well aligned on the bottom, but especially the "E" and "P" appear to be different heights, which would rule out a stamp.  The tails on the "R" seem different, but that could be the angle at which a stamp was held.  The "D" could also vary by the way a stamp was held.
Best regards,
Dale

Offline JV Puleo

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Re: Dreppard/Ketland lock?
« Reply #9 on: August 17, 2010, 05:08:46 PM »
A very good question.
The letters look engraved to me and by a none too skilled hand. I tend to be skeptical of such markings, especially as Dreppard/Dreppert is listed in the 1st edition of Gardner, published in 1936, as "gunsmith, Pennsylvania, 1770."

I believe the lock was made England. At that date (1808) I would expect it to have not been marked or to have been marked with the wholesaler's (English "gunmaker's") name using a 1-piece die or engraving. The fact is, I have never seen an English-made lock that could be reasonably dated to 1808 with an American maker's name on it. This seems (based strictly on observation, not documentation) to have been a practice that came in well after the War of 1812.

Sean

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Re: Dreppard/Ketland lock?
« Reply #10 on: August 19, 2010, 03:39:15 PM »
Yeah, I was sorta wondering about that too.  All that I have seen have been stamped with a single stamp.  That one looks engraved to me.  It'd be interesting to see the rest of the gun.

Sean