1833 Flintlock Rifle

[Noviceman]

HI...hope Im putting this in the right place...checking out a flintlock that has 1833 and US on it..also made by L Pomeroy with a eagle or loon above the name...looking for info and value etc...will try to attached pictures...am told that most guns of this era were refitted and this one looks original if that helps....any info will be appreciated...

couldnt figure out how to attached pictures??

[Hungry Horse]

Pomeroy had several government contracts, for several different models of military muskets,. You need to give us a little more information, or get a picture up, so we can help you. Caliber, and barrel length, would be a good start. I assume its a .69 caliber from the year of manufacture, But maybe not.

                   Hungry Horse

[Noviceman]

Your site seems to indicate that I have to subscribe to an outside service and post pics there and then somehow get on this site???   Other forums I have been on just have a attachment tab or button...is there an easy way to add pictures??

barrel is 42 inches and id end of barrell is 11/16 which would confirm the .69 caliber...there are looks like 3 letters on the side of the barrel ..last one is a V but cant make out the other two...

?
?
V    will have to work on figuring out pics...

[Hungry Horse]

The 42" barrel would indicate this is an infantry model, more than likely. Condition, and modifications over the years, will dictate the guns value. This gun was made at the very end of the flint era. Most of these guns were converted to percussion during the civil war.
 I have a friend that has a Pomeroy artillery carbine, that has been converted using the Belgian conversion. This conversion simply replaces the flint hammer with a large percussion hammer, that curves over toward the barrel, where a nipple is threaded into the barrel, without a bolster or drum.

              Hungry Horse

[Noviceman]

thx....this one is still original flint..no sign of any conversion that I can see...wish I could figure out how to post pictures...I am not a computer guru...should probably get my granddaughter to help

[Robert Wolfe]

If you go to "Tutorials" and then "Miscellaneous Tutorials" you will find directions on how to post photo's.  That should help.

[JTR]

Noviceman, If you have just a few pictures, I'll be happy to post them for you if you email them to me.       

John
jtrrobbins@msn.com

[Noviceman]

Many thanks John...just sent you 5 pics...Appreciate the help..

[JTR]

Here are Noviceman's pictures;

[Hungry Horse]

My first piece of advice, would be to get a ramrod that will reach the breech and make sure its not loaded. I found several at the local museum that were, and had been for a long time.

                Hungry Horse

[Nate McKenzie]

This is a model 1816 musket made in 1833.  69cal. smoothbore. The ram rod is wrong for this gun. I tyhink the front barrel band is from a later 1835 or 1842 musket. It is not the usual 1816 type.

[Noviceman]

Any idea what the value of this might be??   The lady who Im checking it out for is looking to sell if there is some value to it...Thanks...

[TPH]

As Nate said, it is a M1816 musket. The front band is probably from either a US M1840 or M1842 musket. Is the sight blade brass or iron? If the sight blade is iron, someone has used a reproduction of the '42 front band.  

The ramrod is a reproduction US M1855 rifle musket ramrod.

And, I hate to say it but the lock appears to have replacement cock, frizzen, pan and frizzen spring. They are decent quality parts but reproductions none the less. Also, the frizzen screw, hammer screw and the frizzen spring screws are only vaguely similar to originals.

Also, is the barrel 42 inches long? I am not seeing a bayonet lug on the barrel.

[JV Puleo]

... which very likely means its a re-conversion. Since most of the M1816's were converted via the "Belgian" system this means a big hole, where the nipple was screwed in, has been filled with weld on the top of the barrel.

[Noviceman]

the barrell is 42 inches long and the sight appears to be brass....and yes there is weld on the top of the barrell....The rifle has definitely been used...is there any real value here??

[anj4de]

Hi...

I am also of the opinion that the lock has been re-converted to flint. The orginal flint hammers did have teeth in the hammer and the part that holds the flint...this one does not! I have a US Model 1816 as well that was re-converted...a nice job but also using a reproduction hammer. A good indication would also be if the frizzen sparcs...mine does not since is was not hardened.

cheers
Uwe

[JV Puleo]

Weld on the top of the barrel... so it was reconverted from an Arsenal converted M1822 (which is what the Ordnance Department would have called it). There is about a 99.9% chance it never left the arsenal until after it was converted. Likely they welded the breech plug in place when they filled the nipple recess too. The government converted 1822 muskets nearly all saw service in the first two years of the CW... and that is the only service they ever saw. Only unissued guns were converted by the government... all issued guns were condemned and sold as surplus. This applied to virtually all muskets made before 1822 as well, even if in new condition because they did not have the degree of interchangeability that distinguished the M1822. There was no significant physical difference between what the Ordnance Dept. called a "M1816" and a "M1822". The new designation was based on the interchangeability of parts. This has, and continues, to confuse collectors.

This is another example of nitwit "restoration", taking an authentic historical artifact and erasing the most significant part of its history... the evidence of the only time it was likely used.

It certainly has some value... though it might be hard to find a customer for a sloppy reconversion. A general antiques dealer or "decorator" might be the best bet. I doubt any serious collector would be interested. Its worthless (and probably dangerous) as a shooter too, as you have no way of knowing how good that weld is... and even if it was fabulous, how many people would want to shoot a gun they knew had a welded hole up in the breech?

[varsity07840]

I agree with the comments regarding the lock and front band. Regarding value, some more pics of the stock would be a help, but It doesn't appear to have the typical 1816 cracks at the back end of the lock panel or the rear lock bolt hole. If the lock funtions properly  I wouldn't be uncomfortable asking $600.00 for it, hoping that someone might like rework the lock(a lot of relacement frizzens are junk) and rebarrel it to turn it into a shooter. I did that with two 1816s. One had a drum conversion. An insert with vent hole was installed and the lock reconverted to flint. Bob Hoyt relined the barrel.  My other one also has a reconverted lock with a new barrel from Whitacre. I refer to it as a "hybrid" because the barrel is rifled and sighted.

Duane

[Curt J]

A few of the Model 1816's that had arsenal conversions, were also rifled at that time.  I had one, a few years ago. Should have kept it.