CLA Show - The "Fort Harrod Gun" (longrifle)

[Collector]

I understand, that John Curry, author of Rockhouses and Rhodedendrons-Vol.I (VA & KY Longhunter history) and presently working on Vol.II, had a historic longrifle, out of Kentucky (at least owned by the state of KY,) on a table at the CLA show.

I understand that it presently is in need of restoration and that a bench copy is in the works, which will be  raffled-off; the proceeds, of which, will go towards the restoration costs. 

Does anyone have any photographs of this longrifle? 

Having heard so much about this longrifle, I'd very much like to see what it looks like and hope that someone here can accommodate my request.   

Note: If this post is in the wrong forum, kindly remove and place accordingly.  Thank you.

[rich pierce]

I saw it; appeared to be of Lancaster style-architecture, walnut stocked I believe with an unengraved daisy patchbox.  It was not one of the early English Lancaster styled trade rifles.  It needs a lock and some work to stabilize it, for sure.

[flintriflesmith]

The rifle is shattered through the lock and wrist area and so fragile that everyone was afraid to turn it over--much less pick it up. Long ago a longer tang was added so that two screws could help stabilize the brake.

It appears to have had two different size locks in it over the years with the first one being fairly large but with no "banana" shape to the plate. The plain unbeveled side piece is a recent addition.

The lower side piece of the four piece box is also missing. But, as Rich said, it resembles those Lancaster boxes with the tiny daisy at the finial. There is nice raised panel lower butt stock molding but no other carving.

The barrel was held on by draw loops (rather than pins) and there was no rear hole -- the first draw loop was out past the entry pipe. That lead to some discussion about the stock being an in-use restock. It will be easy to check once someone is allowed to examine the bottom of the barrel for traces of an unsuse rear loop.

I could not see the signature but was told that the barrel is signed Messerschmitt (Sp?).

Gary

[JohnnyM]

Sorry, what's a "draw loop"?
regards,
Johnny

[Dennis Glazener]

Period name for wedges and underlugs. Used in lieu of cross pins to attached forearm to barrel.
Dennis

[JohnnyM]

Thanks for the answer.  Interesting to have those.  Perhaps more common than we thought?

[longhunter1757]

Below is a post that John put on the Colonial Backwoods Board discussing the rifle. Np pics yet but he says once restoration begins he will get as many as possible.



Here's the deal so far lads... Turns out, the piece is not southern at all! It is indeed a Lancaster, Pennsylvania piece with the name; J Messersmith engraved in script atop the rifled, 46 1/4 inch barrel. This is kinda interesting because there were very few folks from Pennsylvania living in or around Fort Harrod at that time except for one - James Harrod... the man himself! Everybody else was pretty much from Virginia or North Carolina.
Mike Miller put a bore gage down it and it came out a .58 calibre. Mike and all the other heavyweight gunmakers put an approximate date on it of 1775... and its not straight grain maple at all but very fine, tight grain, American black walnut. A very fine, gun. Messersmith is a rather well known, Lancaster smith so we've got quite a bit of information on him. The thing is so fragile though (what with its complete break in the area of the lock mortise as well as a rather scary crack that is trying to make its way up the belly of the forearm) that we've decided to keep it in a fairly expensive, lockable guncase of mine and store it away in a climate controled area of the museum. So the CLA is probably the last place it will be displayed until it gets restored.

[Acer Saccharum]

Same Messersmith who made 1792 contract rifles?

Below is a Messersmith made and signed rifle.

More images: http://s12.photobucket.com/albums/a246/Tom45-70/Contract%20rifle/

[flintriflesmith]

The one you have pictures of may be by the same maker but the one that the fort owns was a lot earlier. The contract rifle is War of 1812 or later era with a dated Harpers Ferry lock.

Some folks seem to be ignoring the very real possibility that the Fort Harod rifle is an in-use restock. The fancy, although unengraved, 4 piece box; nicely filed up guard and pipes; draw loops; etc. may not fit their 21st-century image of a "frontier rifle" and picturing it in an earlier stock with typical Lancaster carving does not really suit their mental picture at all.

I'm not trying to restart the old "real men didn't carry carved rifles" argument here. Nor am I intending to take away anything about the family history that says the rifle was used in the fort. I'm just saying that the jury is still out on what a more through examination of the rifle will tell us about its history.

Gary
Gary

[bgf]

Does anybody have a picture?  I can't believe I missed this one at the show.  The walnut with anything more than barest furniture would make me suspect a necessarily hasty re-stock, also.  Why waste brass (I'm assuming it was brass) on a walnut stock?

As far as everyone besides Harrod being from Virginia or North Carolina and not Pennsylvania, a good number of those people were from Pennsylvania as well. 

[flintriflesmith]

Finally got around to looking up Messersmith in a couple of books. Rifle #14 in Thoughts on the Kentucky Rifle in Its Golden Age is not signed but Mr. Kindig attributes it to Messersmith based on a signed rifle he had seen. The box profile, side plate and trigger guard are very close to those on the Fort Harod rifle.

In Kentucky Rifle Patchboxes and Barrel Marks by Roy Chandler (1971) there is a signed J. Messersmith patchbox on the same style on page 272. Since Chandler identifies this one as being from the Kindig collection it may be the one Kindig has seen, but not yet acquired, when his book was written a decade earlier.

Bothof these boxes are engraved but otherwise much like the Harodsburg rifle.

Gary