Question about old wrought iron shavings

[Dennis Glazener]

I got a call from a distant Gillespie cousin of mine last night. She was all excited about the possibility of finding John Gillespie's gun mill/forge on a creek in SC where grading work is being done.

We know that he had a "Gillespie Forge" near George's Creek, Easley SC. She (and me) has been looking for this location for years. A person she knows took his metal detector over to a site on a small creek that was known to have had a mill on it years ago. Since they were doing grading work, moving dirt around he decided to use the detector to see what he could find. He found nothing but "iron shavings" and small bits of rusted metal. She believes this may be the remains of iron from the barrel boring mill that John was thought to have had in the area. I wonder if there is a chance that these shavings would survive after 213 hears of being in the ground? Another possibility is that there was known to have been an Iron Furnace/works in this same general area during the Rev War. I know for a fact that the iron slag from Philip Sitton's iron works in Henderson County has survived since the 1810-1850 time period. I have some of it here and there is much more on the banks of Mills River where the iron works was. But this "slag" is much larger, probably contains much more than iron (silica?).
Dennis

[JCKelly]

One would have to take a look at those things described as shavings, and as rusted metal.

Wrought iron was made right up through about 1960. It was more expensive to produce than just plain mild steel. The advantage it had (has) over low-carbon mild steel is that wrought iron is much more resistant to corrosion, at least out in the weather. So, until 1960, wrought iron was useful for structures such as bridges, some RR work, that had to survive the weather without rusting. My guess, not based on specific study, is that the use of galvanizing increased and it was more cost effective to galvanize mild steel than to make wrought iron.

L-on-g way around to say, yup, I bet some wrought iron boring chips might have survived. Steel chips would not have.

Are these things magnetic?

Red rust (Fe2O3) is not attracted to a magnet. Blue iron ore, a.k.a. hematite (Fe3O4), is. I personally do not know about slag from early iron making.

[mr. no gold]

Dennis, you might do well to contact the State Historic Preservation Office and notify them of the potential for an early, historic, cottage industry site. These are usually protected as cultural resources couched in enmvironmental law. Don't know about your local laws but grading over a certain amount requires a grading permit and recognition of  pertinent laws. If this is indeed the site of your forebear's shop, it should easily quality for an archaeological study and a preservation designation. You would do well to contact the nearest college or university having an anthropology department to see if they would conduct some testing and excavation. Pot hunting/dectecting is not a valid study method for this site. Since you have the historical background you might consider writing up a research design to bolster your case. To my knowledge, few to no such gunshop dig studies have been done to date. The Hawk shop should have had one conducted, but my guess is that it did not. If you would like to prepare a research design get in touch with me.
Dick

[Dennis Glazener]

L-on-g way around to say, yup, I bet some wrought iron boring chips might have survived. Steel chips would not have.

Are these things magnetic?

I don't know since I am getting this third hand. My cousin is supposed to call me back later tonight to give me the man's name that did the metal detecting. Hopefully I can call and talk with him. That is a question I will ask.

Dennis, you might do well to contact the State Historic Preservation Office and notify them of the potential for an early, historic, cottage industry site. These are usually protected as cultural resources couched in enmvironmental law. Don't know about your local laws but grading over a certain amount requires a grading permit and recognition of  pertinent laws. If this is indeed the site of your forebear's shop, it should easily quality for an archaeological study and a preservation designation. You would do well to contact the nearest college or university having an anthropology department to see if they would conduct some testing and excavation. Pot hunting/dectecting is not a valid study method for this site. Since you have the historical background you might consider writing up a research design to bolster your case. To my knowledge, few to no such gunshop dig studies have been done to date. The Hawk shop should have had one conducted, but my guess is that it did not. If you would like to prepare a research design get in touch with me.
Dick

Dick,
Thanks for the information, my cousin is very interested in obtaining a historical marker IF if can be proven that this is the location of John's early shop. I am not familiar with historical research in the state of SC but one of the guys that will help us with this research has close ties to a museum in Pickens County. I know they have so lots of research on an early trading post located in the county. I suspect they will know more about how to approach this than we will.
Thanks again,
Dennis

[James Wilson Everett]

Dennis,

This is truly interesting, it would really be wonderful if the site could be identified.  If the mill used the "old technology" square twisted reamers, as is more than likely, then the metal chips will be very tiny, grain of salt size and smaller dust size.  If the mill used the "new technology" pull boring nut, which is less likely, then the metal chips would be quite a bit larger, like the chips we get today with a normal twist drill.  Although with wrought iron you rarely see a long chip like we sometimes get from a lathe.  See if there is available any size information on the recovered chips and let us know.

Jim

[Dennis Glazener]

Dennis,

This is truly interesting, it would really be wonderful if the site could be identified.  If the mill used the "old technology" square twisted reamers, as is more than likely, then the metal chips will be very tiny, grain of salt size and smaller dust size.  If the mill used the "new technology" pull boring nut, which is less likely, then the metal chips would be quite a bit larger, like the chips we get today with a normal twist drill.  Although with wrought iron you rarely see a long chip like we sometimes get from a lathe.  See if there is available any size information on the recovered chips and let us know.

Jim

I talked to my cousin late last night (she is 75 and spry as can be). She gave me the location of the metal shavings which are on the side of a small creek near a larger creek that was known to have an Iron works during the Rev War. I have been unable to determine the location of the Iron works and I guess its always possible that these metal "shavings" that the local guy has found may be connected with the iron works. She sent me some very small photos of the area which included the ruins of some type of ? that is over run with vegetation and poison oak! The whole area is flooded/swampy due to heavy rains in the area. I have seen/heard enough to make a trip down there to investigate much closer but I will rely on a local friend to decide when its, dryer, colder (less snaky) and hopefully after the frost kills the poison oak.

The grading that I mentioned turned out to be on a nearby lot and does not affect this site nor the nearby ruins that may/may not be associated with it. Looks like this will be a late Oct/Nov project. Meanwhile I am going to do more research on the location of the old iron works that should be nearby.


Dennis

[bedbugbilly]

Dennis - I am no expert nor am I a metallurgist . . . that said . . . I would think that the survival of such metal chunks, shavings, etc. would also depend on location and soil types and conditions.  I've done some metal detecting, etc. and one has to remember that artifacts from the Rev War (and earlier) are still being found. . . . many of them made of steel/iron and still identifiable as to what they originally were.  Although much "newer" that the artifacts you are taling about, Civil War sites still are producing many relics of steel - gun barrels, furniture, shrapnel, etc.  (I'm referring to "private owned CW sites).

It would be interesting if you could pinpoint the general area of the forge and then work the area with metal detectors to see if you could locate anything. . .  maybe not large pieces but enough to determine if the site is a possibility.  A lot would depend upon the depth such things rest at under the surface . . . but nothing ventured, nothing gained.  There are a lot of "relic hunting clubs" out there . . . if you could get permission to hunt the area, you might be able to arrange with a club to work it with their detectors to see what comes up.  You might not come up with anything . . . you might just find "shavings" and "chunks" . . . but you have to realize that even though such a business would certainly would repair broken tools, etc. . . . tools beyond repair would probably be discarded.  If you found something like that . . . or lost personal items . . . . it would give you a clue to keep looking in that location.

Many years ago, when I was a kid, I  helped a fellow work an area that he thought was his family's original homestead (in lower Michigan) in the very early 1830's.  It took a lot of grid work but we stuck with it and finally located a cut stone indicating a possible foundation.  Further digging and work (and a bout with poison ivy and many insect bites) and we uncovered the original foundation made of stone.  We found many things such as metal buttons, bone buttons, a jaw harp and probably a half a dozen broken clay pipes.  Such things as the clay pipes which don't breakdown even though buried for a 130 years at that time, all help to put the puzzle together.

[Dennis Glazener]

Dennis - I am no expert nor am I a metallurgist . . . that said . . . I would think that the survival of such metal chunks, shavings, etc. would also depend on location and soil types and conditions.  I've done some metal detecting, etc. and one has to remember that artifacts from the Rev War (and earlier) are still being found. . . . many of them made of steel/iron and still identifiable as to what they originally were.  Although much "newer" that the artifacts you are taling about, Civil War sites still are producing many relics of steel - gun barrels, furniture, shrapnel, etc.  (I'm referring to "private owned CW sites).

One of the problems we have in this area is that we don't have anything but the family legend of a "Gillespie Forge" in this area. We know where his and his siblings land grants/deeds were, within a mile or so of this spot. We suspect he was a trained gun maker when he moved from VA since 10 or 12 years later he moved 30 miles into NC and built a water powered gun mill. I also know that there was a Rev War iron works in this general area but no one seems to know where. We might be near that works. We will get it all sorted out but it may have to wait for dry cold weather to get in there for details. They have been swamped with rain this year and all this is on a small creek bed.
Thanks
Dennis

[54ball]

Could the Rev War works and John's mill be one in the same? You know how things get corrupted through the years, so I thought that may be a possibility to look into.

[Dennis Glazener]

Some updated information. We have now proven that the mill site where the shavings were detected was in the Jameson family since 1790 and the mill there was in service until 1947 (but no build date) so we have no idea about the source of the shavings. My cousin has placed John Gillespie's 1783 property about a 1/2 mile further down the creek that this mill is on. Later this year, late fall or early winter we will take metal detector into the area and see if we can obtain samples of these metal shavings to better understand what they are.

I don't think there is any hard evidence that this mill was erected circa 1790 so its possible that something else was there before it became a grain mill. Local history does not mention the Rev War Iron works and most detailed mentions only that it was in this community.
Dennis

[Acer Saccharum]

It could be swarf from grinding the flats of iron barrels, or borings. I think iron would be a reddish brown sedimentary layer. Iron oxide is a real permanent pigment.

We have natural deposits up here in NYS- in the Adirondacks and in Mass and CT called 'Bog Iron'. I don't know nuffin about it, except that it was pretty readying smelted.

Slag from an iron furnace across the way from my shop comes in various shades of green and blue to turquoise. It looks like obsidian, glassy-like, but it's quite soft. It's slag from one of those furnaces that were charged from above with ore, limestone(the flux) and fuel(charcoal or coal)