Author Topic: Aqua Fortis  (Read 11260 times)

George F.

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Aqua Fortis
« on: September 13, 2008, 06:33:40 PM »
 I recently posted a question on making nitrate of iron using nitric acid. I purchased a small bottle of Aqua Fortis from Track. I think this stuff already is mixed with water and iron. the symbols on the bottle are...H2O,NH2O3,HCI,Fe. Do I still have to dilute it with water and add the nails to it?  ...Geo.

Offline Randy Hedden

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Re: Aqua Fortis
« Reply #1 on: September 13, 2008, 06:42:10 PM »
George,

Your bottle of aqua fortis is ready to go as is. No need to add more iron.

Randy Hedden

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George F.

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Re: Aqua Fortis
« Reply #2 on: September 13, 2008, 06:58:48 PM »
Randy, Should I dilute it with alittle water, or like you said it's ready to go as is. Just conserned because the first rifle I built I didn't dilute it or add any iron and it turned black after the stove burner,   ...Geo.

Offline Stophel

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Re: Aqua Fortis
« Reply #3 on: September 13, 2008, 07:40:31 PM »
I think you just burned the wood!

I've never been able to turn maple black.  Cherry, on the other hand, will turn black instantly upon application.
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Offline Randy Hedden

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Re: Aqua Fortis
« Reply #4 on: September 13, 2008, 08:01:34 PM »
George,

You should always try any stain, whether alcohol or acid based, on a piece of scrap wood left over from building the gun or lacking a scrap try the stain on a small portion of the barrel channel where it won't show if not to your liking.

The AF you bought from TOTW is probably Wahkon Bay AF? This is now being made to the old formula by Michael Lea. I have used this product for years and never had any problem when using it on maple stocks.  I have never had any problem using it straight out of the bottle. As to why your stock turned black, I don't know, but every piece of wood reacts differently to AF. What kind of wood was the stock that turned black? It is not a good idea to use AF on any walnut or cherry stocks. I believe it will turn both of these types of wood black when heated because of the high tannin content of the wood. I would say that most builders don't stain or use AF on walnut because the finish coat will make the walnut darker. On cherry wood it is probably best to use an alcohol based stain or use a lye solution.

If you stain a stock with AF and it is too dark you can lighten up the wood by light sanding, by using steel wool or perhaps rubbing with a scotch-brite pad or other coarse material.

Perhaps if someone else on the board has had similar problems with AF turning their stock black they will chime in.

Randy Hedden

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« Last Edit: September 13, 2008, 11:46:46 PM by Randy Hedden »
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George F.

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Re: Aqua Fortis
« Reply #5 on: September 13, 2008, 08:17:40 PM »
Well now the truth comes out. It was very very dark, maybe a chocolate, semi sweet chocolate. It wasn't that color until after I passed it over the burners on the stove. Although it was my first work, I was careful not to scorch the curly maple stock. I believe it was red maple, but I'm not sure buying it through Dixie Gun Works. I'm just a little cautious, with all the carving on it.   ...Geo.

Offline Randy Hedden

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Re: Aqua Fortis
« Reply #6 on: September 13, 2008, 08:32:43 PM »
George,

Do a test of the AF on your new build and see if you like it. I guess you could always dilute the AF with water if is tests to dark for you. There shouldn't be any acid left in the AF, but just to be safe add the AF to water and not the other way around. I don't know what kind of water you have, but it wouldn't hurt to use distilled water to dilute the AF.

Randy Hedden

www.harddogrifles.com
« Last Edit: September 13, 2008, 11:46:10 PM by Randy Hedden »
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George F.

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Re: Aqua Fortis
« Reply #7 on: September 13, 2008, 08:52:49 PM »
I have distilled water, and thanks to both of you for your help.  ...Geo.

Offline Jerry V Lape

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Re: Aqua Fortis
« Reply #8 on: September 13, 2008, 09:13:22 PM »
George, if you are heating the stock over a propane or gas burner you may have just burned the wood.  I use a heat gun and a hair dryer set on hi heat will work too, just keep moving it over a small area slowly.  The wood will usually turn an ugly brown color requiring a little polishing to bring out the final colors in my experience.  Last piece I did turned almost black from a bottle  of Wakhon that had been used before.  But after rubbing this out a bit with very fine sandpaper I got the greatest colors and curl from that sugar maple.  Experiment on scraps first! 

Offline wvmtnman

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Re: Aqua Fortis
« Reply #9 on: September 13, 2008, 09:20:39 PM »
I do not know a whole lot about aqua fortis but I have used it a few time on scrape pieces of wood.  WHen I was practicing once, I treated a piece of maple then put the varnish oil on the wood without putting the baking soda mixture on the wood. (just to see what happened) Within 2 months that test piece of wood was as black as coal.  Is there a possibility that you did not neutralize the stock after treating with aqua fortis?
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billd

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Re: Aqua Fortis
« Reply #10 on: September 13, 2008, 10:51:58 PM »
I had trouble many years ago and have not used it since, but I know what happened. I did not neutralize it. It turned a very dark greenish black after a while.  Which brings me to a question. When you neutralise it, how wet do you have to get the stock? I cringe when I think about wetting all that fine carving.

Bill

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Aqua Fortis
« Reply #11 on: September 13, 2008, 11:55:32 PM »
It is very easy to scorch the wood when heating it. AF stain will not turn wood black rapidly unless very (much too) strong.
Most of the time I use an electric paint stripper on LOW to react AF.
But its easy to have "issues" without careful use and care at the sharp edges or relief carving. Use on "high" is even worse.
I have simply put them behind the wood stove in winter and turned as the color came up.
The key is to heat the wood deeply as with radiant heat. While the paint stripper looks kinda like a hair drier it uses radiant heat and the airflow is mostly to keep the elements cool. It will heat wood deeply is used right.
The old way was to heat a bar of iron in the forge and pass it over the wood.
But this can burn wood too.
Heating the wood deep enough to react all the stain is important. Thus gas burners and propane torches usually do not work well in the long term. The stove burner will work but requires CAREFUL USE and keeping the wood well away from the flame not trying to rush the job. Quick heating with a flame can result in unreacted acid turning the stock green.
I use warm water with all the baking soda it will absorb to neutralize.
I would also point out that the stocks I have done with commercial AF stain have "browned" considerably in 10 years or so. I attribute this to the Nitric being mixed with Hydrochloric.
Diluting store bought stain is not the answer. If it is thought to be too acid simply add a couple of de-greased nails (or wire or steel wool) this will add iron to the solution and deplete the acid. This can be continued until the solution is very very weak. The stain does not have to be acid to work.
The "advantage" to the dye type stains is that you can put them on and the stock is stained in most cases. But to get them to look good usually takes more work than AF and then the stock looks like it was stained with a modern stain in far too many cases.
I like AF on maple and see no reason to use anything else except the the case of repairs on finished stocks or other such things that can sometimes result in "jumping through hoops" to match the color.


In processing


Green after staining


Reacted with 2 coats of finish.


This stock was stained heavily allowed to dry for an hour or more, reacted and neutralized with baking soda water.

Dan
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George F.

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Re: Aqua Fortis
« Reply #12 on: September 14, 2008, 12:48:40 AM »
Dan, I don't get it. My stock looked just like yours, kinda yellowish light greenish. Then in your next picture you show the stock with 2 coats of finish on it. Did you do anything else in between?? I tried it on a few scraps and it looked sorta like yours with  AF straight out of the liittle brown bottle, while it was still damp I put it on the stove burner about 10-12" above the burner so it wouldn't burn until it turned brown, I repeated this  two more times. Still not satisfied, I applied  2  coats of Homer Dangler redish brown stain diluted with alcohol about 50%. It looks great, but it wasn't the color I was looking for, but still pleased.  After I applied the 3 coats of AF and heated it I gave it a good repeated wash with baking soda and water.I did this three times. After the stain dried, I rubbed it down with a alcohol soaked rag, then rubbed the $#*! out of it with a dry one. In a couple of weeks I post the finished product.   ...Geo.

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Aqua Fortis
« Reply #13 on: September 14, 2008, 05:08:28 AM »
Dan, I don't get it. My stock looked just like yours, kinda yellowish light greenish. Then in your next picture you show the stock with 2 coats of finish on it. Did you do anything else in between?? I tried it on a few scraps and it looked sorta like yours with  AF straight out of the liittle brown bottle, while it was still damp I put it on the stove burner about 10-12" above the burner so it wouldn't burn until it turned brown, I repeated this  two more times. Still not satisfied, I applied  2  coats of Homer Dangler redish brown stain diluted with alcohol about 50%. It looks great, but it wasn't the color I was looking for, but still pleased.  After I applied the 3 coats of AF and heated it I gave it a good repeated wash with baking soda and water.I did this three times. After the stain dried, I rubbed it down with a alcohol soaked rag, then rubbed the $#*! out of it with a dry one. In a couple of weeks I post the finished product.   ...Geo.

The photo says "*reacted* with 2 coats of finish". This means I went over it with the paint stripper to react the stain and had put on 2 coats of oil a seal and one other when I did the photo. When I get it sighted in and the sights finished as I want I will likely disassemble and get some color on the barrels.
I stained it, reacted it, neutralized then oiled it. When you start doing all this washing and rubbing you risk washing the color out in places when using dyes and such. Depending on the stain used.
It is possible to work harder at this than is necessary. Trust me I know. I have found that a lot of the stuff invented to "improve on" the old stains and finishes require a lot more work and often do not look as good as the "old stuff". Thinking someone making guns for a living was going to spend 2-3 weeks on finish is simply silly.
I always let the stain set for a awhile to let it soak in and dry somewhat though its not necessary I guess.
The problem is in "the color I was looking for". Unless you dye to a specific color (maybe)  or paint wood its not going to give exactly the color you want. The color varies with the place the tree grew. How fast it grew etc etc. If you go down to the lumber yard and grab a pint of "golden oak" and paint it on different pieces of pine and other wood used for trim in a house you will get wildly varying colors.
No two stocks you obtain are going to stain the same so instead of worrying about it not matching something you have seen just look at it for what it has become because if you go in looking for a specific color with AF (and a lot of other stains) you will probably be disappointed at least 50% of the time. The people staining wood with AF 200+ years ago stained the stock and took what they got. Properly done its always good but its not always the specific color our 20th/21st century stamped out in a factory all the same expectations might want. Its an individual hand made product.
Its possible to react AF with a kitchen stove but the electrics will work a lot better. Yes I have used both over the years. But the wood needs to be hot enough its uncomfortable to hang on to.

Dan
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Offline Scott Bumpus

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Re: Aqua Fortis
« Reply #14 on: September 14, 2008, 06:08:45 AM »
This is some great info.  I have been afraid to try aqua fortis due to some of the horror stories from not getting it neutralized properly.  I now see how to do this correctly.  I will try this on the yeager I am working on.  Thanks.
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Offline Scott Bumpus

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Re: Aqua Fortis
« Reply #15 on: September 14, 2008, 08:52:49 PM »
I will re-ask bill question, How wet do you get the stock when nuetralizing it?
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Offline Scott Bumpus

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Re: Aqua Fortis
« Reply #16 on: September 18, 2008, 02:16:56 AM »
Oh well i will never know. :-\
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George F.

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Re: Aqua Fortis
« Reply #17 on: September 18, 2008, 02:26:36 AM »
Well... I believe its the baking soda that neutralizes  the acid and not the water.  You don't have to give it a bath, but I think you can wet your hand and sprinkle the baking soda in your palm and rub it on.  If you need more water or baking soda, just sprinkle it on.Just a though...That's what I did.

Offline Larry Luck

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Re: Aqua Fortis
« Reply #18 on: September 18, 2008, 02:48:39 AM »
I tale a little plastic tub and make a slurry of baking soda and water and apply it with a disposable chip brush.  If the stuff foams a lot, I apply more in those areas until it stops.  I dry it as best I can with a cloth and then let it dry completely.  Some times, I have to do a little more in the cracks and areas where the AF becomes more concentrated.
Larry Luck

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Aqua Fortis
« Reply #19 on: September 18, 2008, 03:34:20 AM »
I will re-ask bill question, How wet do you get the stock when nuetralizing it?
I wet it almost as much as when staining. Depends on the reaction.

Dan
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Offline Scott Bumpus

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Re: Aqua Fortis
« Reply #20 on: September 18, 2008, 04:17:44 AM »
Thanks guys that does help us new to using AF stain.  :)
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George F.

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Re: Aqua Fortis
« Reply #21 on: September 23, 2008, 03:43:42 AM »
After using the aqua fortis I posted a problem due to me eagerness to finish the stock and had to remove the finish . Well I took a good look at the stock and had to touch up the carving some due to zealousness in removing the finish with steel wool and lacquer thinner . I noticed that the wood around the carving is of a softer consistency than it was before I used the AF. Is this normal? in any case I'm disappointed with the way I abused the carving on this piece. I feel like such a jerk, because I know better... disgrunted  Geo.